101 Ways to Destabalize the Northern Astroist Federation

[Chenier]

Except that his explanation is factually correct. You really can't influence SA from outside, at least not much, especially when you're trying to fight against the words of the religion's enormously respected founder.

People like Leopold or Gustav– they may have some influence. And your influence on them may do a little in SA: but that's miniscule. And frankly I seriously doubt you meaningfully affected the positions of anyone in SA. This was a feud waiting to happen.

Nonsense: Mendicant had plenty of influence on the church.

[Chenier]

I'm gonna go on the record OOC here and say again that this is factually FALSE. The crusade was, in point of actual, material, real facts, NOT motivated by "political" reasons such as Hireshmont's desire for personal power or bitterness at Triunists for seceding. In fact, I think a really political war would have been much easier to get people to support.

But it obviously wasn't done in the church's best interests, the current state of the church attests to that. If Hireshmont was sincere, then he was short-sighted. He should have listened to the voice of reason and not brought the North into a crusade to save an undeserving city-state.

[Frostwood]

Hate to say it but Vellos is right... Unless you are an ex-member that still has influential ties that is. I was surprised because after leaving the church I became much more motivated to make my own mark as a noble,born to lead let the peasants follow.

Hence why the church is starting to fail in Niselur.   I may be new to the game, but from what my character saw, there was little engagement from SA when she arrived in the realm.  On the other hand, King Leopold immediately engaged me in the realm, and any knights that arrived soon after, if the church did that to new characters, maybe things turn out differently and King Leopold's actions in Niselur would be viewed in a different light.

Before and after the crusade conflict I see no priests in Niselur preaching the faith, while my adventurer sees many in Luria Nova, which I think fosters a disconnect between the church and nobles of Niselur.  In fact it was not until Leopold made his decision known to nobles of Niselur that regent Mordaunt began to engage the realm, and despite his skill at debating it was too late-loyalties were set.

Under King Leopold's reign nobles seemed to be allowed to speak out, which fostered an independent and blunt attitude amongst the nobles, ill suited to being told what to do by other powers.

This set the stage when Leopold announced that he was being considered for punishment by the elder council for the entire kingdom to be incensed that the King of all things was being told what to do, which hurt the national pride.  Any conflicts of loyalty that members of SA in the kingdom of Niselur were shattered when they were punished for speaking out against the crusade(at least that is what they told my character).

Now, maybe the regent Mordaunt would have changed the opinion of nobles in Niselur with his skilled wall-of-text attacks, but then he attacked Phantaria completely disregarding the King's wishes that Niselur not participate in the crusade. This enraged the nobles further(and my character).

You would think that Mordaunt was finished souring people against the the church, but then on trial he proceeded to claim that oaths of fealty to the king meant nothing, and that the laws of the realm did not apply to someone so high up in the church-this caused your "I'm a simple solider(probably people who didn't have as much time to put in the game)" character types who normally wouldn't say anything and care nothing for politics to start speaking out(with some nobles saying that "I normally don't do this but...  I'm outraged at the disrespect shown to the king").

Then after the trial, he ignored the judge's orders to apologize and started attacking the king publicly, by then nobles had started to tune him out.

King Leopold seems to have the solid support of Niselurian nobles behind him(unless there is some grand plot that my character is not aware of).

[Indirik]

Hence why the church is starting to fail in Niselur.   I may be new to the game, but from what my character saw, there was little engagement from SA when she arrived in the realm.

Probably because most of the realm wasn't even part of the church. Several members of the realm only joined the church *after* the rebellion, when they were appointed to various positions in the realm. They were never faithful to the church, but were political converts. They had no incentive or motivation to attempt to bring nobles into the church, as they didn't care about the church.

Before and after the crusade conflict I see no priests in Niselur preaching the faith, while my adventurer sees many in Luria Nova, which I think fosters a disconnect between the church and nobles of Niselur.

There's only so many priests to go around. Despite the fact that SA has a lot of priests, Dwilight is a HUGE area to cover. If Niselur wants a priest in their area, why don't they either ask a priest to come, or have one of their own nobles become a priest? But, really, you *had* one of the highest ranking members of the church as your ruler, and you kicked him to the curb.

Under King Leopold's reign nobles seemed to be allowed to speak out, which fostered an independent and blunt attitude amongst the nobles, ill suited to being told what to do by other powers.

Were they oppressed and not allowed to speak out under the previous regime? From my experience, there are *very* few realms that try to regulate freedom of speech, other than to frown upon outright insults and personal attacks.

Any conflicts of loyalty that members of SA in the kingdom of Niselur were shattered when they were punished for speaking out against the crusade(at least that is what they told my character).

Except that it never happened. No one was ever punished for speaking out against the crusade. Two nobles were demoted to a penitent rank for sending rude and offensive messages, after everyone in the church was warned to keep the discussion civil.

No one in the entire church was ever punished for speaking out against the crusade, or refusing to comply with it. If someone told your character they were punished for speaking out against the crusade they are lying or intentionally misrepresenting the facts.

[Chenier]

Probably because most of the realm wasn't even part of the church. Several members of the realm only joined the church *after* the rebellion, when they were appointed to various positions in the realm. They were never faithful to the church, but were political converts. They had no incentive or motivation to attempt to bring nobles into the church, as they didn't care about the church.

I've always considered that there are probably more political converts than actual coverts. At least when you pitch in all of the coverts that put national priorities over religious ones.

Every time an authority tries to use some muscle, it risks a break. And this is what's happening to SA right now. The elders seemed to naively assume that all faithful would be all too eager to contribute to whatever they decided on. But this crusade, unlike the last one, isn't one that has nothing but positive possible return for all members, without any threats to any of them. This crusade actually goes against the political and national interest of a whole bunch of members of SA. The elders always worked cautiously, only issuing instructions the faithful were all too ready to obey to anyways. It seems to me like they never properly tried to coerce the rest of the "faithful" before now, and this muscle flexing is causing a break in their influence over all of these moderates.

[Lefanis]

You would think that Mordaunt was finished souring people against the the church, but then on trial he proceeded to claim that oaths of fealty to the king meant nothing, and that the laws of the realm did not apply to someone so high up in the church-this caused your "I'm a simple solider(probably people who didn't have as much time to put in the game)" character types who normally wouldn't say anything and care nothing for politics to start speaking out(with some nobles saying that "I normally don't do this but...  I'm outraged at the disrespect shown to the king").

That's not what my character said. He said that that his loyalty ultimately lay with the Prophet, and he hadn't broke any laws as Niselur was bound as a theocracy to uphold the words of the Prophet when he called for support for the crusade.

[Vellos]

But it obviously wasn't done in the church's best interests, the current state of the church attests to that. If Hireshmont was sincere, then he was short-sighted. He should have listened to the voice of reason and not brought the North into a crusade to save an undeserving city-state.

Time will tell on this. Maybe it wasn't in the church's interests, maybe it was. We'll see. He certainly was sincere. But the idea of Terran as an "undeserving city-state" is a purely subjective and political assessment. Undeserving... by what standards? What possible standard could you be appealing to?

Hence why the church is starting to fail in Niselur.   I may be new to the game, but from what my character saw, there was little engagement from SA when she arrived in the realm.  On the other hand, King Leopold immediately engaged me in the realm, and any knights that arrived soon after, if the church did that to new characters, maybe things turn out differently and King Leopold's actions in Niselur would be viewed in a different light.

Before and after the crusade conflict I see no priests in Niselur preaching the faith, while my adventurer sees many in Luria Nova, which I think fosters a disconnect between the church and nobles of Niselur.  In fact it was not until Leopold made his decision known to nobles of Niselur that regent Mordaunt began to engage the realm, and despite his skill at debating it was too late-loyalties were set.

Under King Leopold's reign nobles seemed to be allowed to speak out, which fostered an independent and blunt attitude amongst the nobles, ill suited to being told what to do by other powers.

This set the stage when Leopold announced that he was being considered for punishment by the elder council for the entire kingdom to be incensed that the King of all things was being told what to do, which hurt the national pride.  Any conflicts of loyalty that members of SA in the kingdom of Niselur were shattered when they were punished for speaking out against the crusade(at least that is what they told my character).

Now, maybe the regent Mordaunt would have changed the opinion of nobles in Niselur with his skilled wall-of-text attacks, but then he attacked Phantaria completely disregarding the King's wishes that Niselur not participate in the crusade. This enraged the nobles further(and my character).

You would think that Mordaunt was finished souring people against the the church, but then on trial he proceeded to claim that oaths of fealty to the king meant nothing, and that the laws of the realm did not apply to someone so high up in the church-this caused your "I'm a simple solider(probably people who didn't have as much time to put in the game)" character types who normally wouldn't say anything and care nothing for politics to start speaking out(with some nobles saying that "I normally don't do this but...  I'm outraged at the disrespect shown to the king").

Then after the trial, he ignored the judge's orders to apologize and started attacking the king publicly, by then nobles had started to tune him out.

King Leopold seems to have the solid support of Niselurian nobles behind him(unless there is some grand plot that my character is not aware of).

The issue of engagement is a real one. As I see it, most of the most engaged Astroists are on the periphery. Many Astroists in theocratic realms are just kind of along for the ride, while the people who really invest in the faith are out being missionaries (there are exceptions, obviously). Mordaunt should have done more.

But that's not at all a problem of the church overstretching itself or something, or a fundamental lack of appeal of the church. That's a few personality mismatches. Reshuffle the cards for the next hand, and things will shake out differently.

Also, people keep talking about the state of the church: lolwut? We just won a crusade without fighting a battle. We literally just had a practically bloodless victory, added a theocracy, several new converts, and seem to, as best I can tell, have lost absolutely nothing. Oh no, people are angry! So we'll have to play to those peoples' interests in the next round.

I think the idea of this conflict as the great schism in SA is shortsighted and erroneous.

I've always considered that there are probably more political converts than actual coverts. At least when you pitch in all of the coverts that put national priorities over religious ones.

Every time an authority tries to use some muscle, it risks a break. And this is what's happening to SA right now. The elders seemed to naively assume that all faithful would be all too eager to contribute to whatever they decided on. But this crusade, unlike the last one, isn't one that has nothing but positive possible return for all members, without any threats to any of them. This crusade actually goes against the political and national interest of a whole bunch of members of SA. The elders always worked cautiously, only issuing instructions the faithful were all too ready to obey to anyways. It seems to me like they never properly tried to coerce the rest of the "faithful" before now, and this muscle flexing is causing a break in their influence over all of these moderates.

No, we didn't naively assume all the faithful would be eager. We correctly assumed we would win. And behold, we were right. Right as complaint was reaching a fever pitch and proclamations about how the crusade would be expanded as a political tool... peace was signed. Barely a battle was fought and the war was done. The church managed to flex its soft power without even a declaration of war.

Did we expend some political capital? Sure thing. So now we enter a rebuilding phase. Decisions always expend resources. This one maybe a large amount, so we'll have to do some real work to rebuild. But we're rebuilding from a broader, stronger position than previously.

[Frostwood]

That's not what my character said. He said that that his loyalty ultimately lay with the Prophet, and he hadn't broke any laws as Niselur was bound as a theocracy to uphold the words of the Prophet when he called for support for the crusade.

Unfortunately, that is what it seemed like(and I will admit that the king took full advantage of it-who wouldn't?), and by the time you brought the relevant letters to light the damage had been done to your reputation and many nobles seemed to tuned you out as a traitor.

There's only so many priests to go around. Despite the fact that SA has a lot of priests, Dwilight is a HUGE area to cover. If Niselur wants a priest in their area, why don't they either ask a priest to come, or have one of their own nobles become a priest? But, really, you *had* one of the highest ranking members of the church as your ruler, and you kicked him to the curb.

He *is* a high ranking member of the church, but in my few weeks there I did not see any messages or attempts to engage the realm-unlike the King.  Perhaps there was a lot of engagement going on inside the church but as my character is not a part of SA she did not see it-thus the disconnect.

Niselur should not have to ask for a priest-you have to work to keep a realm as a ruler-it is the same with priests and religion.  If the Catholic Church were to withdraw its priests would it be as popular.  It would be the same if a ruler spent all of his time in another realm-how fast would disconnect and rebellion begin to foster.

If SA wants to rule like a realm then it has to act like it too.

Except that it never happened. No one was ever punished for speaking out against the crusade. Two nobles were demoted to a penitent rank for sending rude and offensive messages, after everyone in the church was warned to keep the discussion civil.

No one in the entire church was ever punished for speaking out against the crusade, or refusing to comply with it. If someone told your character they were punished for speaking out against the crusade they are lying or intentionally misrepresenting the facts.

My character is new to the political field and takes words at face value, and no attempt was made to refute them until after Leopold made his case to the realm.  In fact it wasn't until a day ago that Mordaunt said that there were no charges-almost 8 DAYS* after Leopold started his argument.

*If I am wrong forgive me Lefanis-you can bust out a long speech like no other, but it makes your character seem a little.... wordy, and may put the simpler nobles of the realm to sleep(who care nothing for the church), so your message might have been lost.

[Vellos]

*If I am wrong forgive me Lefanis-you can bust out a long speech like no other, but it makes your character seem a little.... wordy, and may put the simpler nobles of the realm to sleep(who care nothing for the church), so your message might have been lost.

lol if Mordaunt's speeches have overwhelmed you, I hope Hireshmont's letter didn't give Lain a heart attack!

[Lefanis]

lol if Mordaunt's speeches have overwhelmed you, I hope Hireshmont's letter didn't give Lain a heart attack!

Doubt that, two of my messages got cut off for crossing the 5000 word mark...

*If I am wrong forgive me Lefanis-you can bust out a long speech like no other, but it makes your character seem a little.... wordy, and may put the simpler nobles of the realm to sleep(who care nothing for the church), so your message might have been lost.

I could hardly respond with one liners, or even a few paragraphs, Leopold was pretty verbose himself  But anyway, somehow I doubt those who didn't care for the church were going to listen to Mordaunt's argument.

[Vellos]

Doubt that, two of my messages got cut off for crossing the 5000 word mark...
I could hardly respond with one liners, or even a few paragraphs, Leopold was pretty verbose himself  But anyway, somehow I doubt those who didn't care for the church were going to listen to Mordaunt's argument.

YEah, my message got cut off too, and just sent another.

[Daimall]

I could hardly respond with one liners, or even a few paragraphs, Leopold was pretty verbose himself  But anyway, somehow I doubt those who didn't care for the church were going to listen to Mordaunt's argument.

True, I don't think I heard anybody in Niselur jumping onto Mordaunt's side, well at least publicly. Maybe we are going to have another rebellion? 

[Velax]

Doubt that, two of my messages got cut off for crossing the 5000 word mark...
I could hardly respond with one liners, or even a few paragraphs, Leopold was pretty verbose himself  But anyway, somehow I doubt those who didn't care for the church were going to listen to Mordaunt's argument.

YEah, my message got cut off too, and just sent another.

Well, mine is 8 inc...err...sorry, I mean, I had three posts cut off for being too long...

[Frostwood]

Doubt that, two of my messages got cut off for crossing the 5000 word mark...
I could hardly respond with one liners, or even a few paragraphs, Leopold was pretty verbose himself  But anyway, somehow I doubt those who didn't care for the church were going to listen to Mordaunt's argument.

I do think that was true, and Leopold probably wouldn't make his stand with making sure that he had support.  My character did the same before she confronted the regent.  I didn't expect Count Kenwood would post his rp declaring that he would death-duel the regent through.

[Arrakis]

Leopold was pretty verbose himself 

He wasn't very verbose, which is why I am assuming this is sarcasm. If it is not, then I apologize for assuming wrong

The reason he wasn't very verbose against Mordaunt or with the Elders is mostly due to my time restrictions. What Leopold does then is prioritizes and answers the people that actually like and support him first. All of you guys are writing big juicy letters that require big juicy responses and you're usually expecting a response within a day (which is normal). Unfortunately, unlike in my younger days in BM I have a more busier life schedule than I used to and making proper responses usually takes quite some energy; energy which I sometimes don't have. For these reasons I had to ditch one of my other characters career of military leadership as it became quite exhausting to try and make it all work. For example, I have over 10 important marked messages atm that first need to be read and then replied. I don't want to apologize for my real life, that would be silly, I just want to say that I am not ignoring any letters intentionally and I wanted to let that be known. Of course, everyone is free to take this ICly as they see fit and paint Leopold as being intentionally ignoring or intentionally mute for a reason. I am fine with that.