Author Topic: 101 Ways to Destabalize the Northern Astroist Federation  (Read 79218 times)

Chenier

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Time will tell on this. Maybe it wasn't in the church's interests, maybe it was. We'll see. He certainly was sincere. But the idea of Terran as an "undeserving city-state" is a purely subjective and political assessment. Undeserving... by what standards? What possible standard could you be appealing to?

Standards on the worthiness of being protected were given and agreed by for a good number in the early days of the crusade. Further, worthiness can be measured by possible gains versus costs. Sure, the church gains a new limb... but it wounds itself at the core for it.

The issue of engagement is a real one. As I see it, most of the most engaged Astroists are on the periphery. Many Astroists in theocratic realms are just kind of along for the ride, while the people who really invest in the faith are out being missionaries (there are exceptions, obviously). Mordaunt should have done more.

But that's not at all a problem of the church overstretching itself or something, or a fundamental lack of appeal of the church. That's a few personality mismatches. Reshuffle the cards for the next hand, and things will shake out differently.

Also, people keep talking about the state of the church: lolwut? We just won a crusade without fighting a battle. We literally just had a practically bloodless victory, added a theocracy, several new converts, and seem to, as best I can tell, have lost absolutely nothing. Oh no, people are angry! So we'll have to play to those peoples' interests in the next round.

I think the idea of this conflict as the great schism in SA is shortsighted and erroneous.

You really exaggerate the earnings and ignore the costs. A great "victory" of gaining three poor regions, a handful of political converts, at the cost of great internal and external dissent. That's not just the few nobles who really criticized the church persistently, like Jonsu or Gustav, it's all those who agreed with them without wanting to publicly oppose the prophet, but who now see the church as being a political tool for the elders (like Hireshmont's, because it doesn't matter what his true intents are, the appearance  of it being for political ends is too great), and who will not feel themselves as blinded to actually obey. They will be more open to side with national interests in church disputes ("Remember that time where an elder just called for a crusade for his own sake? Why serve the Church when the Church serves another?"), they will be less inclined to encourage non-faithful to adhere ("Oh, if you join, you might be forced to go on stupid wars to further the elders' personal aims").

You've "practically bloodless victory"? What's the worth of another theocracy if nothing's to compel them to actually obey the church. What's the worth of the new converts if their sole purpose was to be able to lobby in their own interests, against current policies? People are angry, yes, but that's actually worth a lot more than what was gained. You can't just rotate "Oh this time we piss these people off, next time we give them a cooky, then rinse and repeat". It takes a darn lot of cookies to make people you pissed off forgive you.

No, we didn't naively assume all the faithful would be eager. We correctly assumed we would win. And behold, we were right. Right as complaint was reaching a fever pitch and proclamations about how the crusade would be expanded as a political tool... peace was signed. Barely a battle was fought and the war was done. The church managed to flex its soft power without even a declaration of war.

Did we expend some political capital? Sure thing. So now we enter a rebuilding phase. Decisions always expend resources. This one maybe a large amount, so we'll have to do some real work to rebuild. But we're rebuilding from a broader, stronger position than previously.

It's not just perceived as a political tool to save Hireshmont's city, but also as a last move done out of spite against Phantaria. And that, no amount of stepping down and leaving the realm will change anything to. Time will indeed tell who is correct, but I don't see the church as being in a "broader, stronger position than previously". I see this as structural damage. From what I've seen, the Church overextended itself, and have damaged its internal cohesion to do so, and will never be able to properly heal this gash, merely patch it as best it can.
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Glaumring the Fox

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I agree with Chenier... :o
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Fleugs

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I just noticed the following;

Astrum, Morek and Niselur have as many regions as they have nobles. Corsanctum even may have set a record by having 13 regions and only 11 nobles.
I take great joy from this. Particularly because I think Corsanctum is a horrible, horrible realm - but in general I don't like SA, so seeing how they apparently are efficient at repelling nobles (players?) this just made my day.
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Indirik

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You really exaggerate the earnings and ignore the costs. A great "victory" of gaining three poor regions, a handful of political converts, at the cost of great internal and external dissent.
This. In spades. We gained very, very little in this crusade. Terran, as a theocracy, is worth nothing more than symbolic victory, and not a very good one.

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That's not just the few nobles who really criticized the church persistently, like Jonsu or Gustav
Going back through the messages, and making a list of people who disagreed with the crusade produces a very extensive listing of people, from all over.

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You've "practically bloodless victory"? What's the worth of another theocracy if nothing's to compel them to actually obey the church. What's the worth of the new converts if their sole purpose was to be able to lobby in their own interests, against current policies?
The victory we achieved was done by nothing more than the church's reputation. Phantaria knuckled under because of the past victories achieved by crusades, and Phantaria's knee-jerk "OH noes, we can't stand against a crusade! We better sue for peace!"

The reality of the situation was far, far different. Because you know what? Phantaria could *easily* have beaten off the crusade. Why? Because the only people that participated were 5 or 6 nobles from Astrum, and Mordaunt. The Astrum nobles were slow to respond, and probably wouldn't have done much. Phantaria could have waited them out, the moved in and beaten up Terran. When a few nobles wander back, then Phantaria pulls back and waits them out. Drag out the crusade as resistance to it rises, and it simply falls apart from the inside.

Phantaria's nobles needed to pay better attention to what people were saying inside the church. If they had correctly gauged the attitude of the church, they could have easily deduced how to defeat it.

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From what I've seen, the Church overextended itself, and have damaged its internal cohesion to do so, and will never be able to properly heal this gash, merely patch it as best it can.
The damage this crusade did to the church is incalculable. It was poorly envisioned, poorly planned, poorly executed, and just...  bad for the church.
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vonGenf

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The reality of the situation was far, far different. Because you know what? Phantaria could *easily* have beaten off the crusade. Why? Because the only people that participated were 5 or 6 nobles from Astrum, and Mordaunt. The Astrum nobles were slow to respond, and probably wouldn't have done much. Phantaria could have waited them out, the moved in and beaten up Terran. When a few nobles wander back, then Phantaria pulls back and waits them out. Drag out the crusade as resistance to it rises, and it simply falls apart from the inside.

Which is why Mordaunt's charge was so important. Phantaria could have waited to see what kind of army it would face before deciding whether to sue for peace or not. By forcing battle he made it into something where Phantaria actually had something to lose instead of just a staring match. It forced them to settle before they realized they didn't have to.
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Indirik

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I doubt that. Phantaria was already negotiating an end to the war. The attack did nothing but damage the credibility of the church, of  Mordaunt specifically, and served as a rallying point for all the anti-crusade forces. It was completely unnecessary.
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Perth

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Which is why Mordaunt's charge was so important. Phantaria could have waited to see what kind of army it would face before deciding whether to sue for peace or not. By forcing battle he made it into something where Phantaria actually had something to lose instead of just a staring match. It forced them to settle before they realized they didn't have to.

Indeed, there was already a draft treaty being discussed between Hireshmont and Kale before Mordaunt arrived. All Mordaunt achieved was confusing the heck out of Phantarians. Everyone was literally like "uh.. where did that guy come from and what the hell is he doing?" We then asked him that and he never responded.

Phantaria's nobles needed to pay better attention to what people were saying inside the church. If they had correctly gauged the attitude of the church, they could have easily deduced how to defeat it.

That's pretty easy to say in retrospect and from the outside looking in. When Terran gained 4-5 more Nobles it put them on par in Noble count as us. With the addition of 3,000 CS of militia in the Chateau, I don't think we could've broken the Chateau.

Also, it should be noted that the Prophet traveled to Phantaria to personally tell Kale not to escalate the war or "suffer the consequences" which Kale interpreted as the Prophet's way of telling Kale he would back a full crusade against Phantaria if Kale pushed the issue.

Furthermore, now Phantaria looks/is the bullied state. We have sympathy and the Theocracy in the Chateau looks like the bad guys. As opposed to Phantaria being forever labeled the guys who fought a Crusade/enemy of SA.
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Chenier

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Indeed, there was already a draft treaty being discussed between Hireshmont and Kale before Mordaunt arrived. All Mordaunt achieved was confusing the heck out of Phantarians. Everyone was literally like "uh.. where did that guy come from and what the hell is he doing?" We then asked him that and he never responded.

That's pretty easy to say in retrospect and from the outside looking in. When Terran gained 4-5 more Nobles it put them on par in Noble count as us. With the addition of 3,000 CS of militia in the Chateau, I don't think we could've broken the Chateau.

Also, it should be noted that the Prophet traveled to Phantaria to personally tell Kale not to escalate the war or "suffer the consequences" which Kale interpreted as the Prophet's way of telling Kale he would back a full crusade against Phantaria if Kale pushed the issue.

Furthermore, now Phantaria looks/is the bullied state. We have sympathy and the Theocracy in the Chateau looks like the bad guys. As opposed to Phantaria being forever labeled the guys who fought a Crusade/enemy of SA.

Indeed, I don't think it was a bad decision for Phantaria. You guys played it safe, and it could benefit you greatly in the end. Maybe, as some claim, you could have resisted the Church... but you would have made a lot of enemies even (especially) had you succeeded. I'm far from convinced it would have been worth it.
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Indirik

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Furthermore, now Phantaria looks/is the bullied state. We have sympathy and the Theocracy in the Chateau looks like the bad guys. As opposed to Phantaria being forever labeled the guys who fought a Crusade/enemy of SA.
You could have been forever labeled as "The realm that defied the church, and won!"
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Glaumring the Fox

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I thought that was Asylons titles? Having fought two wars against vast SA alliances and survived. :'(
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Indirik

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When you get a crusade declared on you, and you defeat it, you get that title. Asylon has, so far, always knuckled under and given SA what it wanted. ;)
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Bjarnson

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When you get a crusade declared on you, and you defeat it, you get that title. Asylon has, so far, always knuckled under and given SA what it wanted. ;)

haha, its a matter of perspective. At most, the last war could be considered a "White peace" as we lost nothing to the SA alliance, nor did we gain anything. And the SA lost nothing either, or gained anything from it.
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Glaumring the Fox

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When you get a crusade declared on you, and you defeat it, you get that title. Asylon has, so far, always knuckled under and given SA what it wanted. ;)

We survived and thrived.

My opinion is that Phantaria should have fought on against the crusade, people love a rallying point and they probably would have gained nobles for their strong stance, the crusade would have done nothing, just as the alliances were useless against Asylon. The more people stand up against these silly SA alliances and the more they see how ineffectual it all is the more nobles and realms will be emboldened to stand up for independence of their own realms. Especially against Terran, they did not have the economy or army to fight against Phantaria long term.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 11:52:08 PM by Glaumring the Fox »
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Stabbity

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Phantaria became an important symbol to rally around. Just wait until the Church tries to do anything again in the future. First words out of people's mouths "Oh yea this will end up like Phantaria. Piss off."
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