Author Topic: 101 Ways to Destabalize the Northern Astroist Federation  (Read 79204 times)

Wolfang

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Religious sightseeing trip.

Vellos

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Well that Terran Crusade ended without any big battles. That sucks...

Well when half the church gets pissy when you call a crusade, don't be surprised that stagnation and peace mongering is what follows.
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Tandaros

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Well that Terran Crusade ended without any big battles. That sucks...

Too bad the Astroists couldn't muster a good walloping. Yet Chesland just took a pounding from a resurrected Moot :D Even some Barcans showed up!

Vellos

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Too bad the Astroists couldn't muster a good walloping. Yet Chesland just took a pounding from a resurrected Moot :D Even some Barcans showed up!

Yeah, congrats to ya'll on that. Nice to see Barca doing something.
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Chenier

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Does Chenier really think the Elders consider things like this when they deliberate? There are many reasons why some Elders have reason to doubt the crusade but D'Hara's secular concerns really aren't one of then- it's not even on Constantine's radar and he's probably the "most D'Haran" Elder there.

Not the elders in general, no, definitely not. He would have, however, expected Hireshmont to consider these things.

And Machiavel may be paranoid, but these fears are largely justified. We attacked Saffalore, so obviously they'll want to fight back. We also attacked Falkirk, so obviously they'll fight back whenever they can. Aurvandil had openly stated their desire to colonize Paisly. Alice's intents were transparent, if not only for her shock to learn that Morek would defend D'Hara. Phantaria was on the receiving end of the crusade, and doesn't want D'Hara to annex Chesney.

Fearing a multi-front invasion isn't paranoia under these circumstances. Terran may have had the luxury of being relatively isolated and far from all imperialistic powers, D'Hara never did.
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Gustav Kuriga

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A decent sized battle, I believe it was around 25k all told.

Chenier

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A decent sized battle, I believe it was around 25k all told.

Yup.

Time to reclaim 'moot territory from the illegitimate kingdom.
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Stabbity

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Yup.

Time to reclaim 'moot territory from the illegitimate kingdom.

Hrm, seem to be more than one of those floating around, eh?
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Chenier

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Hrm, seem to be more than one of those floating around, eh?

Chesney is specifically mentionned in the Treaty of the Maroccidens, though.

As for Phantaria, it could have been recognized as Terran's sole legitimate successor... But they don't seem to want to. And Terran... well, one more reason to be pissed off at Hireshmont, 'cause that's obviously one illegitimate squatter that won't be dealt with any time soon.
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Wolfang

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Treatys are made for a reason.

Vellos

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Not the elders in general, no, definitely not. He would have, however, expected Hireshmont to consider these things.

And Machiavel may be paranoid, but these fears are largely justified. We attacked Saffalore, so obviously they'll want to fight back. We also attacked Falkirk, so obviously they'll fight back whenever they can. Aurvandil had openly stated their desire to colonize Paisly. Alice's intents were transparent, if not only for her shock to learn that Morek would defend D'Hara. Phantaria was on the receiving end of the crusade, and doesn't want D'Hara to annex Chesney.

Fearing a multi-front invasion isn't paranoia under these circumstances. Terran may have had the luxury of being relatively isolated and far from all imperialistic powers, D'Hara never did.

If Machiavel wanted Hireshmont to consider such things, he could have avoided booting Terran from the Véinsørmoot and recognizing Phantaria. Machiavel took a crap all over the Treaty of the Maroccidens with that particular move.

And here's the funny thing: Morek will defend D'Hara, yeah... but only as long as D'Hara is in good stead with Astroism. If a certain group of elders managed to paint D'Hara as anti-Astroist and LN as the truly pro-Astroist power... hmmm....

Chesney is specifically mentionned in the Treaty of the Maroccidens, though.

As for Phantaria, it could have been recognized as Terran's sole legitimate successor... But they don't seem to want to. And Terran... well, one more reason to be pissed off at Hireshmont, 'cause that's obviously one illegitimate squatter that won't be dealt with any time soon.

Chesney gets a mention, but a treaty cannot govern the lands of a state no longer party to the treaty. You booted Terran from the Moot and recognized Phantaria as its successor. Terran has also recognized Phantaria as such. You cannot receive claim under the special security interest when the state with claim to that part of the special security interest is no longer party to the treaty which grants said interest. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You may get away with it due to Farronite support, but you'll have added two more nations to D'Hara's enemies list: and two that happen to be populated by the nobles in Terran who were generally friendliest with Luria.
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Chenier

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If Machiavel wanted Hireshmont to consider such things, he could have avoided booting Terran from the Véinsørmoot and recognizing Phantaria. Machiavel took a crap all over the Treaty of the Maroccidens with that particular move.

And here's the funny thing: Morek will defend D'Hara, yeah... but only as long as D'Hara is in good stead with Astroism. If a certain group of elders managed to paint D'Hara as anti-Astroist and LN as the truly pro-Astroist power... hmmm....

Chesney gets a mention, but a treaty cannot govern the lands of a state no longer party to the treaty. You booted Terran from the Moot and recognized Phantaria as its successor. Terran has also recognized Phantaria as such. You cannot receive claim under the special security interest when the state with claim to that part of the special security interest is no longer party to the treaty which grants said interest. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You may get away with it due to Farronite support, but you'll have added two more nations to D'Hara's enemies list: and two that happen to be populated by the nobles in Terran who were generally friendliest with Luria.

Except that Machiavel doesn't have the authority to recognize any state as legitimate successor. Only the elders can. As as the elders haven't voted on anyone being that successor (because, despite what Phantaria said at the start, they never did make that formal request to adhere), there are no legitimate successors. Not Terran, not Phantaria, not Saffalore. The Old Republic is dead, and there are no inheritors. As for Terran, you seriously expected us to recognize it? It had, what, four nobles left? A single region, starving, under siege? And you expected what, that we come and defend it? The majority of the nobles of the old republic were opposed to Hireshmont and his little gang in the Chateau. There was no compelling reason to alienate the rest of old Terran. Furthermore, Terran never made a formal request to get it's full membership back. You just went "Hey, what the heck?", then gave up.

And the treaty governs how the signing parties will act towards the cited land. It doesn't say anything about who holds it, or under what circumstances the obligations to the cited lands cease. Chesney is on D'Hara's and Barca's doorstep, it remains of special interest regardless of what happened to the Old Republic.
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Vellos

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Except that Machiavel doesn't have the authority to recognize any state as legitimate successor.

In RL law, false. Thus insofar as BM is an analog for RL, also false. Machiavel is both a government official capable of creating estoppel rights in his office as Mootgram, but, maybe more importantly, he is a sitting monarch.

The fact that his public proclamation was erroneous does not change the fact that it happened. Legally, Machiavel, and any office he held, has recognized Phantaria: the Monarchy of D'Hara and the office of the Mootgram, to wit.

Only the elders can. As as the elders haven't voted on anyone being that successor (because, despite what Phantaria said at the start, they never did make that formal request to adhere), there are no legitimate successors. Not Terran, not Phantaria, not Saffalore. The Old Republic is dead, and there are no inheritors.

There are always, always, always inheritors. A place once it ceases to be Terra Nullius can never return to that state.

As for Terran, you seriously expected us to recognize it?

Actually, yes.

It had, what, four nobles left? A single region, starving, under siege? And you expected what, that we come and defend it?

You signed the gosh durn treaty saying you would. This is precisely the kind of incident the Treaty was envisioned to prevent. Hireshmont will sit back and giggle when D'Hara has a secession crisis someday and everybody says, "Well, that's really not my problem. There is no real D'Hara."

The majority of the nobles of the old republic were opposed to Hireshmont and his little gang in the Chateau.

The political legitimacy of a government has no bearing upon the legal legitimacy of a state.

There was no compelling reason to alienate the rest of old Terran.

Right. That's why you're now at war with Saffalore, and on the brink of war with Phantaria: because you want to avoid alienating the parts of Terran.

Furthermore, Terran never made a formal request to get it's full membership back. You just went "Hey, what the heck?", then gave up.

False.

And the treaty governs how the signing parties will act towards the cited land.

No. The treaty governs how the signing parties will act towards one another. You can't sign a treaty with land.

It doesn't say anything about who holds it, or under what circumstances the obligations to the cited lands cease. Chesney is on D'Hara's and Barca's doorstep, it remains of special interest regardless of what happened to the Old Republic.

The obligations obviously cease when the Treaty which governs the relationships between the sovereign states holding those lands which are governed by the treaty are terminated. This is seriously like not even law 101, this is like the stuff you learn before you take real law classes so you don't make a fool of yourself.
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Chenier

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A contract is null of made in error. That statement was done because Phantaria said it would seek to ratify the Treaty of the Maroccidens. Recognition and signature go hand in hand. Without one, there cannot be the other.
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Vellos

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A contract is null of made in error.

Recognition is not a contract.

You can certainly recognize a realm and not be allied to it. Are you seriously saying the only realm D'Hara recognizes is Barca?
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