Closing Islands ?

[Anaris]

As far as additional characters go, I think that the current system needs to be changed. Currently, medals coalesce under the magnetic eyes of powerful Kings, Dukes and other important players, while most other people are left out of the loop.

Since I wrote the automatic medal replenishment code, and thus started paying more attention to medals and who seems to deserve them again, I have been noticing this myself. Nearly every time I see the medal icon below a message and think, "Hm, that kind of deserves a Fun medal," I glance back up at the person who sent it, and realize that it's someone who already has loads of medals. Part of this, I do recognize, is because as a long-time player, I have a tendency to run with a lot of other long-time players.

But part of it is a fundamental problem with using the medal system in the way that we do now. There is a significant fraction of players who will never do more than follow orders, send the occasional message, and maybe run for a Lordship here or there, but who still deserve to have additional characters. But the medals will always go, overwhelmingly, to the minority who send many messages, get up to all kinds of shenanigans, and write novellas of RP. That's just human nature, and I don't see any good way to change it, especially when we have a low player density.

The game needs both of these types of players, and everything in between, and medals don't—and won't—reflect that. While it wasn't a bad concept, I think we need to stop using medals to determine who gets extra characters.

[Scarlett]

I would second the suggestion of sinking the Dark Isle on FEI. Too remote. Maybe the Southern bit of Kindara as well.

[Tom]

Thanks to all for your feedback.

Let me cut in with a few definite answers. There are a few things that we can leave out of this discussion, either because they are besides the point or they are very unlikely to happen.

First, invasions. Running an invasion is pretty much a second job and it won't happen. I know some people volunteer, but you have no idea what you're getting yourself into. Trust me on that, please.

Second, redrawing maps. This is just a crazy amount of work.

Third, changing character limits. That can be discussed in a different topic, it doesn't solve the problem of dropping player count.



As for the War Islands, I'm sorry but I strongly believe that this is a case of the vocal fans being on the forums and everyone else not. If you manage to get a list of 100 players who would return to the game if we re-opened them, I will see if I still have the data.

[Lavigna]

As for the War Islands, I'm sorry but I strongly believe that this is a case of the vocal fans being on the forums and everyone else not. If you manage to get a list of 100 players who would return to the game if we re-opened them, I will see if I still have the data.

Does that mean we are  allowed to make a list with player "signatures" for it? :D If yes then i volunteer to aid in something like this :) i am a war island fan, won't deny it.

[Atanamir]

Does that mean we are  allowed to make a list with player "signatures" for it? :D If yes then i volunteer to aid in something like this :) i am a war island fan, won't deny it.

A petition it is, yes a petition it is! :D

[Atanamir]

Third, changing character limits. That can be discussed in a different topic, it doesn't solve the problem of dropping player count.

With respect, I still think though the fame limits for new player have some relation to this topic.
Because without them more new players will be likely to stay rather than leave because they can't progress in the game with building more characters.
I think everyone of the old farts can testify that even 3 chars back then available as new player were not enough. ;)

[Geronus]

I'm sorry, but apparently the invasions of Beluaterra have taught you all nothing.  It DROVE PEOPLE AWAY.  We lost players, players we may never get back.  Why?  Because some people think losing years of work is "fun" while it seems many others do not.

You talk about destroying continents and realms in ways that cannot truly be prevented (much like the Third Invasion).  This will not encourage people to join other continents.  It will simply make them wonder what is the point when in the end anything they do won't matter.  They will quit.

We've seen it before, we'll see it again.  With Beluaterra.  With the War Islands.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

So just sinking an island would be better? I can respect what you're saying if you're saying that the idea of closing any islands is a bad one, but I for one think that if we decide that we do need to eliminate some islands (or at least shrink them), the Invasion route would be 10x better than if we just pick an island and shut it down, though it sounds like this is off the table unfortunately.

[Alpha]

I'm certain that closing an island isn't the way to go. Merging could be fun, but only with two similarly sized islands. Providing advantages for having knights would go a long way to keep realm's from expanding until every character is a lord. Making regions harder to hold, or more dependent upon the Lord's presence, might be another solution. Blighting some regions with monsters, like I read above, sounds like one of the better options, if this is the route chosen. Though, I'd change the name to peasant rebels, or something rather than monster hordes.

I think everyone of the old farts can testify that even 3 chars back then available as new player were not enough. ;)

I don't think raising character limit will help much at all. All I can see it doing, is adding more drones. More drones isn't necessarily a problem, but I doubt many people think playing a drone is all that fun. I'd wager that there are some people that have the ability to play more characters, but don't for some reason. When I was donating, and had 5 slots, I didn't typically keep 5 characters.

Another problem that I think exists, is that certain positions have almost no turnover. On FEI, I held the duchy of Ortedail for pretty close to three years, and Lantzas, a richer non-city, for longer. There are players who've held positions for considerably longer than that. It would seem reasonable to think that newer players are discouraged by lack of turnover.

BM would really benefit from some reliable, and reasonable, way of creating a power struggle. I don't know how best to do this. Assassinations are unreliable, extremely expensive, require ridiculously long training, and largely ineffective in most cases. Other than for infiltrators, I can't remember the last time I saw someone lose titles due to imprisonment. Wounds from battle typically don't last long enough to remove titles, and I don't really think it's a good idea to make wounds last longer. Mortality has been requested, and rejected more times than I can count, so I won't even go there.

[Gustav Kuriga]

I'm certain that closing an island isn't the way to go. Merging could be fun, but only with two similarly sized islands. Providing advantages for having knights would go a long way to keep realm's from expanding until every character is a lord. Making regions harder to hold, or more dependent upon the Lord's presence, might be another solution. Blighting some regions with monsters, like I read above, sounds like one of the better options, if this is the route chosen. Though, I'd change the name to peasant rebels, or something rather than monster hordes.

I don't think raising character limit will help much at all. All I can see it doing, is adding more drones. More drones isn't necessarily a problem, but I doubt many people think playing a drone is all that fun. I'd wager that there are some people that have the ability to play more characters, but don't for some reason. When I was donating, and had 5 slots, I didn't typically keep 5 characters.

Another problem that I think exists, is that certain positions have almost no turnover. On FEI, I held the duchy of Ortedail for pretty close to three years, and Lantzas, a richer non-city, for longer. There are players who've held positions for considerably longer than that. It would seem reasonable to think that newer players are discouraged by lack of turnover.

BM would really benefit from some reliable, and reasonable, way of creating a power struggle. I don't know how best to do this. Assassinations are unreliable, extremely expensive, require ridiculously long training, and largely ineffective in most cases. Other than for infiltrators, I can't remember the last time I saw someone lose titles due to imprisonment. Wounds from battle typically don't last long enough to remove titles, and I don't really think it's a good idea to make wounds last longer. Mortality has been requested, and rejected more times than I can count, so I won't even go there.

I think playing a drone is rather fun if we're at war. I for one would welcome having more characters to play as, and don't really see the argument for the really low limit of 2 nobles starting out for a new player.

[Alpha]

I think playing a drone is rather fun if we're at war. I for one would welcome having more characters to play as, and don't really see the argument for the really low limit of 2 nobles starting out for a new player.

Don't get me wrong, I've had fun playing a drone, especially if the realm has good, and active, leadership. Though, historically most my knight or minor lordly characters are really boring to play.

That said, I don't think the character limit improves the game, and newer players should be able to play more than two. I just don't see how that removing it helps the game. 

[Sacha]

Does that mean we are  allowed to make a list with player "signatures" for it? :D If yes then i volunteer to aid in something like this :) i am a war island fan, won't deny it.

I added a poll to the BM group on Facebook, I doubt we'll get 100 yays, as there are only 105 members, but it will still give a general idea of how the player base thinks. The group includes many people who no longer play BM, I'd love to hear their opinions.

[Frostwood]

snip

As one of the newer players, I found being a knight limiting without RPing, in times of peace.  I had to scrounge for monsters for months to get the 3 prestige to become a lord, while my other character who started in Fane, gained that in one day. 

I am more patient, but some people don't want to wait months for payoff.  It would be interesting to at least construct flavour buildings or have more to do with the estate.  It might be interesting to merge the adventurer game into a noble class, as a commoner is even more limited in what he/she can do than a knight.

Despite being touted as inactivity friendly, I find the game unfriendly towards people who can't log in as much-miss a turn and you miss the big battle that has been building up for months, miss another turn, and you fall behind the more active nobles hunting for monsters.  For instance this message, from a person that is very good RP'er.

Hi all,

Im quite annoyed.. Because I could not log in at work I have now missed out on Kaigen, and probably on Miniath too. Ive also missed out on Ianith thanks to other ... complications.

I dont really see any point in continuing to play to be honest,
As such I might just big my farewells.


Thanks

He decided to stay, but its one of the frustrations us newer players face... since prestige and honour are needed to open up aspects of the game.

[Lefanis]

So far it looks like people want/ have suggested-

1) War Islands back
2) Chop of bits of islands
3) Merge islands
4) Old players to come back
5) Character limits
6) Kill an island

Honestly, i don't see how option three is realistic without redrawing maps, as it won't increase player density, rather, it would reduce it. Option 5 is also unrealistic- we added a fourth character not too long ago, and that really hasn't helped in the long term at all, although I'm all for opening up 3 noble slots for newbies.

Bringing the war islands back would be an interesting experiment, but Tom doesn't seem too thrilled about it. IMO, what was unique about the War Islands was the no diplomacy FFA, and from a tactical perspective, the (more or less) radial symmetry of the map, which balanced it towards this purpose. Now the former should be pretty easy to replicate on any other island, and the latter might be possible (though difficult) for some of the existing continents, with a little bit of redrawing, similar to what was done to BT after the Fifth Invasion. I'd volunteer to do a little Gimp work if it came to that.

So, rather than bring back the old war islands wholesale, why not convert one modified continent into a new war island? Keep the current realms, so the players don't feel totally uprooted/angry, and allow for a continental free for all. Should this get more players on board, great, if it doesn't more drastic approach like sinking islands can be considered.

[Zakilevo]

As one of the newer players, I found being a knight limiting without RPing, in times of peace.  I had to scrounge for monsters for months to get the 3 prestige to become a lord, while my other character who started in Fane, gained that in one day. 

I am more patient, but some people don't want to wait months for payoff.  It would be interesting to at least construct flavour buildings or have more to do with the estate.  It might be interesting to merge the adventurer game into a noble class, as a commoner is even more limited in what he/she can do than a knight.

Despite being touted as inactivity friendly, I find the game unfriendly towards people who can't log in as much-miss a turn and you miss the big battle that has been building up for months, miss another turn, and you fall behind the more active nobles hunting for monsters.  For instance this message, from a person that is very good RP'er.
He decided to stay, but its one of the frustrations us newer players face... since prestige and honour are needed to open up aspects of the game.

Well that is his fault for not being active. In any game, more active you are, better things will get for you. You are investing more time in the game so why shouldn't it? The whole prestige restriction is there for a purpose. This game is over 10 years old and many things happened during that time to make the developer add such restrictions.

If you want actions, you should not be joining a peaceful realm. That is why many people join underdogs because they tend to fight a lot more than most realms. Although BM says it is an inactive friendly game, no online game is inactive friendly. If you really want inactive friendly games, you should be playing single player games not online games.

[Zakilevo]

So far it looks like people want/ have suggested-

1) War Islands back
2) Chop of bits of islands
3) Merge islands
4) Old players to come back
5) Character limits
6) Kill an island

Honestly, i don't see how option three is realistic without redrawing maps, as it won't increase player density, rather, it would reduce it. Option 5 is also unrealistic- we added a fourth character not too long ago, and that really hasn't helped in the long term at all, although I'm all for opening up 3 noble slots for newbies.

Bringing the war islands back would be an interesting experiment, but Tom doesn't seem too thrilled about it. IMO, what was unique about the War Islands was the no diplomacy FFA, and from a tactical perspective, the (more or less) radial symmetry of the map, which balanced it towards this purpose. Now the former should be pretty easy to replicate on any other island, and the latter might be possible (though difficult) for some of the existing continents, with a little bit of redrawing, similar to what was done to BT after the Fifth Invasion. I'd volunteer to do a little Gimp work if it came to that.

So, rather than bring back the old war islands wholesale, why not convert one modified continent into a new war island? Keep the current realms, so the players don't feel totally uprooted/angry, and allow for a continental free for all. Should this get more players on board, great, if it doesn't more drastic approach like sinking islands can be considered.

How about turning one of the existing island into a War island by making it FFA?