"Too Much Peace" Revisited

[Buffalkill]

And if a realm has been at peace for a year or more? Or engaged in a war where all they ever do is march a week or two to the front, fight a battle, then march back, for months on end?

The point of this feature is exactly to let the players decide how much boredom they will tolerate.

If it's too boring, players/characters will defect and eventually the realm will wither and die. That's a more poetic end than any automated penalty. If players have access to the boredom data of all realms, chronically boring realms will be punished naturally by defections, OR if they have some sentimental attachment to their boring realm, the data will signal to them that they're in a boredom crisis and they need to do something to save it before it's too late. If the data is delayed, they can't make effective use of it.


My recently deceased char was in a tiny fledgling realm with about 8 regions. Because of its size, we were constantly vulnerable. We needed to strengthen the realm from the inside to survive. Some people found that process boring, and many chars left, but it was necessary for our survival. The rest of us stayed to build our little underdog realm with the hope that our slogging would eventually pay off. If we had been compelled to go to war by game mechanics or popular vote, we would have been wiped out. The moral of the story is, let the realms chart their own course. Every realm has its own unique circumstances, and they are in the best position to decide what to do with those circumstances.

[Anaris]

If it's too boring, players/characters will defect and eventually the realm will wither and die. That's a more poetic end than any automated penalty.

It's also demonstrably not true, or at least not true enough. Yes, players will leave, but there will always be those whose identities are too tied to the realm to be willing to do so. These are the same arguments that have been made, time and again, for why we shouldn't need things like Too Much Peace. But we do. Because, by and large, our players don't stand up for themselves. They don't leave a bad realm. They don't protest a bad king.

Would it be better if things worked they way you say? Sure! I'd love to be able to let the boring-realms problem take care of itself. But it just doesn't.

[Indirik]

On other thing to consider: this option should not, in any way, be a replacement for IG/IC action. Players who are bored, or who don't like their ruler, shouldn't be able to just hit the "BORING" button, and destroy their ruler inside of a week. Players still need to take IG action to help themselves and their realm.

[Buffalkill]

It's also demonstrably not true, or at least not true enough. Yes, players will leave, but there will always be those whose identities are too tied to the realm to be willing to do so. These are the same arguments that have been made, time and again, for why we shouldn't need things like Too Much Peace. But we do. Because, by and large, our players don't stand up for themselves. They don't leave a bad realm. They don't protest a bad king.

Would it be better if things worked they way you say? Sure! I'd love to be able to let the boring-realms problem take care of itself. But it just doesn't.

I believe that will change if this data is made available to all players. Knowledge is empowering (as I'm sure you know) so give the players the ability to make informed decisions. If it's their decision to stay in a boring realm, that's their decision. You may get a bunch of boring players playing together in the Dronesville Republic, and that's fine. Other players (including leaders) will find it hard to ignore the problem when the data is available to them in black & white.


Think about newbies. You start playing in a realm and it's boring. As a newbie, you don't know if it's the realm that's boring, you just think it's a boring game. If they could compare player data from different realms, then they could see that a) I'm in a boring realm and I should change to a better one; or b) I'm in a fun realm and I'm still bored, so clearly this game's not for me and I should stick to Grand Theft Auto.

[Vellos]

I believe that will change if this data is made available to all players. Knowledge is empowering (as I'm sure you know) so give the players the ability to make informed decisions. If it's their decision to stay in a boring realm, that's their decision. You may get a bunch of boring players playing together in the Dronesville Republic, and that's fine. Other players (including leaders) will find it hard to ignore the problem when the data is available to them in black & white.


Think about newbies. You start playing in a realm and it's boring. As a newbie, you don't know if it's the realm that's boring, you just think it's a boring game. If they could compare player data from different realms, then they could see that a) I'm in a boring realm and I should change to a better one; or b) I'm in a fun realm and I'm still bored, so clearly this game's not for me and I should stick to Grand Theft Auto.

I like the idea of making boringness scores public; allows players to shop around for fund realms.

[Buffalkill]

On other thing to consider: this option should not, in any way, be a replacement for IG/IC action. Players who are bored, or who don't like their ruler, shouldn't be able to just hit the "BORING" button, and destroy their ruler inside of a week. Players still need to take IG action to help themselves and their realm.

Indeed. All the more reason to make it an information tool for players, instead of some built-in algorithm. Give players the information and let them decide what to do with it.

[Telrunya]

I believe it should purely be an information tool for how fun a Realm is (For both the Ruler and the Devs and whoever), at least while we judge how effective it is and check the results. If you make those scores public, it will become a player-attraction/repulsion tool. Because many Realms are great fun with more Nobles. Things like that, just like counting the amount of messages and other such earlier proposals to measure a Realm, just seem too easy to game. To me there seems to be a good chance that whatever information you get out of such a tool will be less reliable and a worse indicator of fun-ness if we make it public. It'd be better if we at least start it with private scores.

[Tom]

I like the idea of making boringness scores public; allows players to shop around for fund realms.

That's the idea.

First step: Implement the option to give a score and calculate the average and display it.

[Buffalkill]

It will also make players and leaders more accountable. If the realm score is chronically low, it would behoove the leadership to find out why, and maybe even communicate with their fellow players. There's no reason a ruler (or any player) can't send his realm a msg saying "I know things have been stagnant lately, here's the reason [...]", OR, "I hope you'll bear with us, because things are about to get really exciting in the next couple of weeks," OR, "I noticed an increase in boredom lately, let's have an OOC discussion about how to shake things up."


This will soooo much more effective than some edict from the gods telling the ruler what to do.

[Buffalkill]

(For both the Ruler and the Devs and whoever), at least while we judge how effective it is and check the results.

Strongly disagree. Making the data public is what makes it effective. Also, while characters have ranks, players should be equal. Since this is a player tool, all players should have full access.

If you make those scores public, it will become a player-attraction/repulsion tool. Because many Realms are great fun with more Nobles.

You're assuming everyone will go to the realm with the highest score. I disagree. Different players are looking for different things. So players looking for a challenge, or a promotion, might be drawn to fledgling realms. Yes, it will also cause some to leave, but if a realm is unable to attract/keep nobles, it doesn't deserve to survive. And if people want to save their poor, stagnant realm, this tool can help them do it.

[Jaden]

I agree with Telrunya, People are going to score differently if it's a public score. If they know that the score is going to affect how how other people look at the realm, and possibly the recruitment of new players, they will score differently than if its a private score. And if it's going to be a player repulsion/attraction tool, the more established players will vote to ensure the survival of the realm, instead of an accurate assessment of the situation of the realm.

[Buffalkill]

I agree with Telrunya, People are going to score differently if it's a public score. If they know that the score is going to affect how how other people look at the realm, and possibly the recruitment of new players, they will score differently than if its a private score. And if it's going to be a player repulsion/attraction tool, the more established players will vote to ensure the survival of the realm, instead of an accurate assessment of the situation of the realm.

Disagree. It would be foolish for anyone to think that this one value tells them everything they need to know. It would be subject to same vagaries as ALL statistical samples. When you look at movies on Netflix or Rotten Tomatoes, you might consider the ratings when deciding which movie to watch, but you wouldn't base your decision on it entirely. As I said earlier, most people are smart enough to understand that it's an opinion poll, players are human, and humans are whimsical.


Also, it's not only for deciding to join or leave a realm. It's for gauging whether your realm is on the right track, or if players need to do something different to make it fun.

[Anaris]

Buffakill, your arguments in this matter would be quite good ones, if people in general acted in a rational manner and in the interests of the many.

Thus, they are woefully unsuited to dealing with reality.

If people see that a realm is rated as "boring", 9 times out of 10, they will just skip it.

If people know that their rating of how boring their realm is will be known by people looking at their realm, 9 times out of 10, they will just rate it as "5 out of 5 stars, super-fun!" regardless of the truth.

[Buffalkill]

If people see that a realm is rated as "boring", 9 times out of 10, they will just skip it.

Nothing wrong with that. If a realm consistently sucks, it'll die a slow death, and good riddance.

If people know that their rating of how boring their realm is will be known by people looking at their realm, 9 times out of 10, they will just rate it as "5 out of 5 stars, super-fun!" regardless of the truth.

I don't think so, because the people who look at it the most will be those who are inside the realm, who care about making the realm fun, such as the rulers and those in leadership positions.


And look, it's not just the actual score that matters, it's changes in the score over time. If my realm is consistently 5/5, and it goes to 3/5, then I know something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Doesn't mean it's the ruler's fault necessarily, but if he's a good leader, he'll find out what the problem is and fix it.


You can't guarantee that players will vote with a certain mind. When I take the Pepsi challenge, they don't know if I'm telling the truth, or if I'm bull!@#$ting them because my friend works for Coke. When I rate films on Netflix, they don't know if I've seen the movie that I'm rating. Maybe I just gave it a 1 because Mel Gibson's a douche (I'm sure many people do that) or maybe I gave it 5/5 because there's a hot girl on the poster. Maybe I was just in a bad mood when I saw it, so I didn't fully appreciate it. That's the nature of statistics, though giving the numbers of votes helps. A 4/5 with 80 votes is a better statistical sample than a 5/5 with 3 votes. The more votes, the harder it is to manipulate.

[Vellos]

Buffakill, your arguments in this matter would be quite good ones, if people in general acted in a rational manner and in the interests of the many.

Thus, they are woefully unsuited to dealing with reality.

If people see that a realm is rated as "boring", 9 times out of 10, they will just skip it.

If people know that their rating of how boring their realm is will be known by people looking at their realm, 9 times out of 10, they will just rate it as "5 out of 5 stars, super-fun!" regardless of the truth.

If a larger number of players compared to other realms is content to rate it 5, fine. It's a subjective response survey: trying to approximate objectivity is not only probably not possible, but actually damages the point of the survey.

Most players will probably go with whatever the default setting is. IMHO, default should be set at 3/5, though I could see reasons to set it at 2/5 or 1/5. Many players will, as you say, just go with the team and bmp it to the max. But there's no reason to honk that an "objectively boring realm" will make such team participation MORE likely than in "objectively exciting realm." Indeed, probably the exciting realm has a slightly smaller share of players who are engaged, and a slightly lower share of players willing to give the realm a flunking score.

And ill repeat: if there's a realm we objectively think is dull, but it subjectively isn't rated that way, is hat really our problem? I suspect players probably sort themselves fairly well so that this tool will have limited usefulness across realms, but significant usefulness across times.

Had a longer bit about longitudinal vs. cross-sectional usefulness of data. Suspect 1st much more useful than 2nd due to self selection on tastes and playing style by realm, but on mobile now so don't want to peck and peck away typing the whole bit.