Farronite-Aslyon Merger

[Stabbity]

Is three people and a city enough to consider Farronite a realm? Perhaps they will get a few immigrants, but without a few rurals for scouts and food then I'm not sure it will last.

When it does begin to waver, I wonder how long until they abandon ship and let it go rogue, letting it go to Asylon. I think it is a rather appropriate way for it to end up, but wouldn't it amount to the same thing as merging all at once?

Yes. It has a banner, a government, and territory. Its a realm.

[Indirik]

Please read the message posted by the player that did the merge. Their stated intention was to destroy the realm by merging with one of their two neighbors. There is no power struggle or ic political scheming here. If there is, then it should be quite easily provable with a few messages to show it. Without that, all you have the player's own message stating their intentions to merge the realms.

As for the assertion of "its not a merge because FR still exists", that's irrelevant. The realms we merged to the extent possible by game mechanics restrictions. To get any more, you'd have full combine this with a bug exploit, which is a violation all on its own.  If this isn't a realm merger, then it is impossible to have a realm merger that doesn't involve bug exploitation. Which makes the realm merger rule superfluous.

[Geronus]

Please read the message posted by the player that did the merge. Their stated intention was to destroy the realm by merging with one of their two neighbors. There is no power struggle or ic political scheming here. If there is, then it should be quite easily provable with a few messages to show it. Without that, all you have the player's own message stating their intentions to merge the realms.

As for the assertion of "its not a merge because FR still exists", that's irrelevant. The realms we merged to the extent possible by game mechanics restrictions. To get any more, you'd have full combine this with a bug exploit, which is a violation all on its own.  If this isn't a realm merger, then it is impossible to have a realm merger that doesn't involve bug exploitation. Which makes the realm merger rule superfluous.

These are good points...

[Glaumring the Fox]

Im posting this on behalf of a player that doesnt have a forum account who wished to add to this.

By Indirik immediately after the duchy joined Asylon

Re: Great Dwilight War:Astrum defeats Asylon and Farronite forces.
« Reply #826 on: December 19, 2013, 06:16:41 PM »
You merged the entire !@#$in' realm of Golden Farrow, with the exception being the single city you left behind, into Asylon? In order to do this, you must have created a new duchy explicitly for the purpose of holding only the city so you could transfer *EVERYTHING ELSE*.

Does the term "realm merger" mean nothing to you?'



Concerning the power struggle there is definitely one and it has been going on for a long time. I have intimate second hand knowledge of the power struggle going on in FR for a year. It began in the last war when Asylon went to war against Terran. Pro Asylon nobles in FR kept FR from getting involved in the war, this was only just the beginning of it. After that war ended pro Asylon nobles in FR gained more power and took part in instigating a war against Astrum. They were successful and FR went to war against Astrum. During the course of the war pro Astrum nobles gained power and surrendered FR to Astrum against the wishes of the pro Asylon nobles and Asylon nobles. After FR surrendered to Astrum pro Asylon nobles in FR began to in secret send gold to Asylon in support of the war against Astrum.

The fact that it had to be done in secret is evidence in itself of a power struggle and it was willfully against the treaty that FR signed with Astrum. When Khari changed the allegiance of her duchy to Asylon, Asylon banished two pro Astrum nobles and ended the power struggle permanently. It ends with the pro Asylon nobles being victorious.



A post by Feylonis in another thread who plays a pro Astrum character with the name Halleria. This is a pro Astrum player acknowledging that they are pro Astrum and that pro Asylon nobles exist. This player also took actions to undermine the pro Asylon characters.

Re: Great Dwilight War:Astrum defeats Asylon and Farronite forces.
« Reply #829 on: December 19, 2013, 06:32:27 PM »
Succeed, actually. As a Diplomat I brought down region sympathy to Asylon during the war, which resulted in a -lot- of protests against the alliance with Asylon (conversely, I propped up sympathy to Astrum which resulted in protests against the war). It had a very nice effect. :)

Also, it would have been harder to pin 'realm merger' if the remaining city in FR didn't have a pro-Asylon standing (which could have been spun as non-consensual). Alas, the sole leader left in FR is suspiciously (conveniently?) pro-Asylon.



Evidence that Khari Kye is sending gold secretly to Asylon. This indicates that the noble is a pro Asylon noble. Bank transactions would confirm it. It was done in secret so the pro Astrum nobles would not find out.

Letter from Khari Kye   (32 days ago)
Marshal Mihail,

I though it better to simply travel to Via and use your banks. It was quicker. I therefore passed the gold onto your King.

Khari Kye
Chief Merchant of Farronite Republic
Royal of Farronite Republic
Ambassador of Farronite Republic
Duchess of Mech and Farrow
Senator of Farrowfield
Priestess of Sanguis Astroism


A letter by the King of Asylon acknowledging that pro Astrum nobles exist. Asylon ultimately decided to not take Golden Farrow and to leave it be.

Letter from Grimrog Bjarnson   (7 days, 19 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in message group "Military council" (9 recipients)
Viscount Ramsay,

It is true, I had not shared it with the Military Council before, nor had I planned to make it public yet. As my Diplomatic efforts with the Farronites have been a long road, and I fear that they are easily spooked if their Pro-Astrum nobles get a chance to warn Astrum and Corsanctum...

The Duchess Khari will submit to Asylonian rule, making all regions exept the Golden Farrow Asylonian, t

A letter by the King of Asylon acknowledging that pro Astrum nobles exist. Asylon ultimately decided to not take Golden Farrow and to leave it be.

Letter from Grimrog Bjarnson   (7 days, 19 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in message group "Military council" (9 recipients)
Viscount Ramsay,

It is true, I had not shared it with the Military Council before, nor had I planned to make it public yet. As my Diplomatic efforts with the Farronites have been a long road, and I fear that they are easily spooked if their Pro-Astrum nobles get a chance to warn Astrum and Corsanctum...



Honor, Glory and Unity.

Grimrog Bjarnson
King of Asylon
Royal of Asylon
Duke of Bloodmoon
Earl of Via



Pro Asylon and pro Astrum nobles existed, therefore there was a power struggle since the interests of the two parties could only conflict with each other. If the actions of the player of Khari are decided to be against the rules it establishes two things. One, that the kind of roleplay over the course of a real life year which led to this ultimate conclusion of a duchy joining Asylon is not the kind of roleplay that is welcome in this game. Two, it establishes city states as non realms and not allowed in this game. To use the term realm merger is incorrect, the term should not be used and another term should be used in its place such as duchy merger.

[cenrae]

That very well sums up most of the events leading to this situation.

Oh I also hired an assassin to strike Vellos when he joined FR. A very successful assassin. That was a nice RP from the infiltrator.

[Glaumring the Fox]

What many outside of FR/Asylon do t know is how much gold FR was pumping into Asylon the whole time. When Vellos took control of FR we thought that our relationship was over but found that actually strengthened. We have been aware for a long time of two factions in FR. On another note it was always Asylons intention to have astrong independent FR on our east flank, them joining us was a bonus but not our intention.

[Marlboro]

Is this still ongoing? I'd like to weigh in, as the player of the sole land-owning noble of FR.

Paul saw firsthand two single-region realms withstand direct assaults from multi-realm coalitions; he was on the other side. Eventually they won out, but it was lengthy and costly for the aggressors. Now he finds himself in the same situation, but regionally he has many allies, having paid his dues to Phantaria and D'Hara. Asylon considers GF cursed, so they will not attack, and FR has a non-aggression treaty with Astrum, which it fully intends to uphold. So it will not fall due to enemy action.

Starvation is an issue. However, with Farrowfield to feed as well, starvation has been an issue for FR for a long time. The realm was simply unable to feed itself. Due to treaties with various entities, they were unable to expand. Asylon's resurgence is thus a boon to Golden Farrow. As their own food situation stabilizes and they grow their borders, they will have more food to sell than FR's rurals alone did, and Paul pays top coin for every bushel. The realm may fall due to starvation, but that was always a danger.

In my opinion, FR as a single region stands a better chance of survival than before. It will not be a very exciting realm, but Paul Marlboro doesn't care for excitement. He sees gold, and lots of it, and now has no obligation to spend it on throwaway armies to back the ally-of-the-day. There is no politicking separating him from his gross profits. Ever since he first swore an oath to Allison Kabrinski, then-margravine of the city, he knew he wanted it all to himself. Now he's finally got it. This wasn't a realm merger, it was a power play. It may turn out to be a really stupid one, but the dice haven't finished rolling.

[Penchant]

Tom's post in the Solari and Luria Nova realm merger thread states:

A "friendly realm merger" does not require a precise definition of every word. What I intend by those words is that I don't want realm A and realm B to sit together and say "hey, as one realm we would have better game mechanics on our side" or whatever, and then simply join up.

Duchess Khari decided she didn't want to be a part of FR anymore, not the rulers simply agreeing to merge, thus this is not a realm merger.

[Eduardo Almighty]

It's really sad to have to show up plans, strategies and RPs to defend some situation, exposing it to everyone... hoping that they will understand the difference about what is discussed here and what they can use in their own benefit in game.

To use the term realm merger is incorrect, the term should not be used and another term should be used in its place such as duchy merger.

And I fully agree with this. If you don't want to see it happening, instead of open cases and always untangle situations like this, even bringing to the table some kind of bug abuse, try to create some code to avoid entire duchies moving to another realms leaving just one city behind... or live with that, because even when it's considered illegal, fix it after it happened is a huge inconvenience for a lot of players involved, especially when they are unaware that they are doing something wrong. That's useless to show it in our Forums and open cases if the game continue allowing you to do it.

Invariably you will find someone who doesn't know the rule and will not do with bad intentions, but simple ignorance of a rule that exists just here, while the game itself doesn't prevent you from making this kind of decision.

[Indirik]

And I fully agree with this. If you don't want to see it happening, instead of open cases and always untangle situations like this, even bringing to the table some kind of bug abuse, try to create some code to avoid entire duchies moving to another realms leaving just one city behind... or live with that, because even when it's considered illegal, fix it after it happened is a huge inconvenience for a lot of players involved, especially when they are unaware that they are doing something wrong. That's useless to show it in our Forums and open cases if the game continue allowing you to do it.

You're correct in that, where possible, these kinds of things should be handled by game mechanics. If it was easy/possible, I assume that Anaris would have already fixed it. As I said before, this kind of thing was not really possible under the old duchy system. The new one is much more complex and flexible, and unfortunately leaves some loopholes like this. I would love to see some kind of code-based fix, if it were possible. If it is or not, is something that really only Anaris or ^ban^ could answer. It is also a matter for a different thread.

[Chenier]

From the messages that I've received, Khari changed allegiances because there weren't enough nobles in FR to maximize lordships in the rurals, while Asylon had plenty. Whether o not that can be taken as evidence for a strategic merger, I'll leave for you all to decide.

That's what I was told IG by FR'S ruler...

I really don't like this move, but in the definitions of what are illegal realm mergers, we consider the merger of two viable realms. Was FR viable? The one doing the move did not appear to think so.

That being said, is her say enough? Was the lack of noble so bad that the realm was "non-viable"? I personally have a hard time believing that... FR had a lot of regions, if density was too low it could have skipped on a few until density increased to proper levels. Not to mention other realms had it at least as bad before without imploding. And where do we draw the line? FR as a realm certainly is no longer viable.

[Graeth]

I have some messages from more than a month back that may be helpful.  I do have to edit out some fields though for IG reasons.

Letter from Grimrog Bjarnson   (45 days, 4 hours ago)
Message sent to  -----------------------
Duke Graeth,

Duchess Khari of the Farronite republic has sent us a letter where she lets us know that she is considering abandoning the Farronite Republic and bring her duchy to Asylon... This would leave the Farronite Republic with just one province, their ever-consuming-city Golden Farrow and add the rest of their realm to us.

We would swell in size and never need to worry about starvation again...

Myself I see this as an oppertunity too good to refuse, what are your thoughts on this?


Honor, Glory and Unity.
Grimrog Bjarnson
King of Asylon
Royal of Asylon
Duke of Bloodmoon
Earl of Via

That was the first time my character became aware of the possible plans.  I then asked why she would be considering this and here is the reply:

Letter from Grimrog Bjarnson   (44 days, 18 hours ago)
Message sent to------------------------------------
I belive she is unsatesfied with what her realm has turned into, and the only way for it to prosper is to join us. But I will ask her and see what she replies.


Honor, Glory and Unity.
Grimrog Bjarnson
King of Asylon
Royal of Asylon
Duke of Bloodmoon
Earl of Via

Letter from Grimrog Bjarnson   (38 days, 17 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in message group "Diplomatic Council" (7 recipients)
Friends of the Diplomatic Council,

I will let you all know that I have exhanged several letters with some Lords of the Farronites, they are very unhappy with the current state of affairs within the Farronite republic and they are thinking about switching allegiance to Asylon...

I think this would be very fortunate for us, but so far nothing has been decided. I will carry on my talks with them and see what can be done, parhaps my diplomatic skill will grant us some more regions, making us thicker and stronger.

Honor, Glory and Unity.
Grimrog Bjarnson
King of Asylon
Royal of Asylon
Duke of Bloodmoon
Earl of Via

Obviously these are second-hand letters but I think they show that there was political unrest developing within FR for some time leading up to the duchy switch.

[Indirik]

Magistrate case threads are not general discussion threads. Posts that do not add actual content/evidence to the case, or those that simply repeat things that have already been said will be removed.

[Geronus]

I have cleaned out some irrelevant posts and pared down some others.

At the moment I see two conflicting characterizations of events. In one of them, the player of Khari Kye (posting here as cenrae) grew dissatisfied with the state of FR from an OOC perspective with too few nobles and too little activity in the realm, and resolved to essentially merge the vast majority of the realm with Asylon in an effort to achieve an increased noble density and perhaps liven up the game for her/himself and the remaining players in FR as well as deal with the problem of too many regions/not enough nobles. In the other, there was some sort of power struggle between pro- and anti-Asylon factions in FR that led to Khari making a power play and defecting with her duchy to Asylon.

Just based on what I've seen so far (and with no first-hand knowledge of the situation), I have to say that the case looks a bit stronger for the first characterization than the second (though I'm also sure they're both grounded in truth). It's hard to believe that there was much actively ongoing political conflict within FR given the OOC message that Khari sent to SA:

FR has dropped dramatically in its player count and was becoming near silent.

This is not generally how one would describe a realm with an active power-struggle on-going. The proximate cause of the action appears to have been not any sort of IC conflict per se, but rather OOC motives related to player count, realm viability and boredom. The other characterization of events seems frankly to be a bit of a ret-con... I'm sure there were some nobles in FR that were pro-Astrum, but it appears to me just from what's been posted here that the relative importance of the conflict between them and pro-Asylon nobles is being rather overstated for the sake of applying an IC justification to the secession ex post facto... Vellos had already paused by the time Khari acted, and I have seen no evidence so far of any sort of IC argument or conflict that led directly to what happened. I find the justification contained in Khari's OOC letter to SA to be far more believable, and have no reason to imagine that if there had been a genuine IC motivation for the whole thing, Khari wouldn't have mentioned it then.

So, I would ask you to dispense with the arguments about the IC justification at this point, unless there's more compelling evidence to be had. Instead, the question is (assuming the motivation of the action is as described by Khari in the OOC message), is this an illegal realm merger?

[cenrae]

I am failing to see the point in all this. I used an in game mechanic to stimulate the game for all involved. Apparently the ability to move a duchy needs to be eliminated.

A far as evidence, plenty has been put forward that will either be used or ignored as one sees fit.

The FR was a shell of its original creation and there was internal strife between its ruling elite, some more prevelant than others.

Do what you will, i'm basically done with this discussion.