No peace time Generals

[Anaris]

If you want to go on an expedition, go on an expedition, no is stopping you. Some people are telling you not to, but they can't stop you.

This. This is the important part.

In BattleMaster, so much depends on interpersonal interactions, and that makes it very much a microcosm of society. Each realm is a little sociocultural petri dish, and by and large, the power its leaders have over you is exactly the power you let them have.

Yes, they can ban you. But unless you're doing something pretty extreme—or your realm is pretty extremely hellbent on having no one ever do anything that hasn't been approved at the highest levels, in which case you're probably better off out of there anyway—they're not likely to risk a backlash for banning someone just because he wanted to do something non-boring.

[Gustav Kuriga]

And this is why I'm glad all my characters are paused. :3

[Dishman]

Yes, they can ban you. But unless you're doing something pretty extreme—or your realm is pretty extremely hellbent on having no one ever do anything that hasn't been approved at the highest levels, in which case you're probably better off out of there anyway—they're not likely to risk a backlash for banning someone just because he wanted to do something non-boring.

You can get away with quite a bit, to be honest. People may yell at you, but what is a General gonna do? Take away some of your militia? I've used murderous settings to waylay friendly realms generals, I've embezzled military funds, I've sacked council-members' temples...sometimes it is fun to push how far you can go. Plus, it helps keep other folk in line to see when you push too far and someone gets to drop the hammer on you.

Marshals/Generals are supposed to work with players. If Miskel has a group of nobles wanting to go do something neat, its poor leadership to snuff their plans with no explanation. Leadership needs to work with character motivations, not against.

[Jens Namtrah]

Oh, come on! Seriously. You know very well how Judges and Councils often behave in this game.

This way of thinking is wrong. Most new players wouldn't know "nothing is going to happen to them".

This isn't about me - I've been around long enough to take care of myself. You're trying to get new players into the game, I'm telling the "30+ Fame Club" they need to start looking at it through the eyes of new players.

BTW - "we will never, ever, ever have forums, so stop asking"

[Anaris]

Oh, come on! Seriously. You know very well how Judges and Councils often behave in this game.

This way of thinking is wrong. Most new players wouldn't know "nothing is going to happen to them".

This isn't about me - I've been around long enough to take care of myself. You're trying to get new players into the game, I'm telling the "30+ Fame Club" they need to start looking at it through the eyes of new players.

So what do you want us to do?

Removing the General position simply won't help. In realms where they want to maintain control over the nobility's actions, they'll just do it another way.

If you want something to change, make a suggestion that will actually address the root of the problem, rather than a surface symptom.

[Buffalkill]

So what do you want us to do?

Removing the General position simply won't help. In realms where they want to maintain control over the nobility's actions, they'll just do it another way.

If you want something to change, make a suggestion that will actually address the root of the problem, rather than a surface symptom.

I typically agree with Miskel on almost everything and disagree with Anaris on almost everything, but in this particular moment--and I'll be sure write about it in my diary--I have to agree with Anaris. I'm not denying the existence of the problem raised by Miskel, but I'm not convinced that this is the best way to deal with it.


However I do agree whole-heartedly with this:

You're trying to get new players into the game, I'm telling the "30+ Fame Club" they need to start looking at it through the eyes of new players.

[Penchant]

Oh, come on! Seriously. You know very well how Judges and Councils often behave in this game.

This way of thinking is wrong. Most new players wouldn't know "nothing is going to happen to them".

This isn't about me - I've been around long enough to take care of myself. You're trying to get new players into the game, I'm telling the "30+ Fame Club" they need to start looking at it through the eyes of new players.

BTW - "we will never, ever, ever have forums, so stop asking"

Just saying, expedition or not, I have hard time seeing a new player staying in Talerium long. Realms that have been at peace for a long time generally suck, especially for new players. I certainly dont think peace should ever be supported for long periods of time, but I could see the point being brought up that people need more to do during peace. That is, however, completely different topic than this one.

As well, you are blaming it on the old timers, but especially with a position like General which can be very demanding, generally whoever wants the position gets it, within reason, so newer players becoming general isn't that uncommon. IMO, quit trying to blame things on the long time players and accept that sometimes its just a player style issue or gamewide issue, not those terrible long time players that are just always trying to wreck the game for everyone.

[Zakilevo]

This isn't about me - I've been around long enough to take care of myself. You're trying to get new players into the game, I'm telling the "30+ Fame Club" they need to start looking at it through the eyes of new players.

Well once you reach 30+ fame, you either are too burnt out to do anything or too used to holding power you can't get away from its grip.

[Indirik]

If your realm is locked down so hard by the council that you can't go monster hunting while you are not at war with anyone, then abolishing the general will do nothing. The judge will order you around. Or the ruler, or banker.  And they will still banish you for that. Getting rid of the general does nothing.

You need to push back. Challenge their authority to order you around. Or work with them to get permission. It doesn't have to be a fight.

If worse comes to worse, go somewhere else. Abandon the realm, and join a different realm. Take your region with you. Vote with your feet. I know for a fact that not all realms are that tightly controlled. If enough people object to the way they are being treated, then either they will change, or they will die. And if not enough people object, then the realm doesn't want to change, and we can't force it to change with little code tweaks.

You can't fix a people problem with little code tweaks. People need to fix it.

Edited for typos. Silly phone.

[Eduardo Almighty]

Or do like Erik did: become Judge, join the Council, get popular support and "kick" each inactive Duke. After that, become an active and megalomaniac Duke until you become a mummy too. This has worked for him (and for me) since he needed 4 or 5 years to achieve this goal. Give me more 4 years and he will probably be a mummy too... 8)

Generals are important even in peace times, since it's his job to find a war... you know... to be famous.

[Tandaros]

You can't fix a people problem with little code tweaks. People need to fix it.

QFT

[Qyasogk]

I see too much of the "Martial Law" attitude in this game, where the automatic feeling is that the General always needs to be ordering people about - even when there's nothing to give order about.

The General has become the guy who tells you to go do civil work in Lord So-and-so's region. The General is the guy who wants to know what you're up to if you ever go outside your realm.

The General has nothing to do, but he feels he SHOULD be doing something, so he exerts needless control.

As the general of two different realms on two different worlds, I can tell you point-blank that all of your observations are true only for your realm and YOUR general.

A General actually has very little power. Generals attain their position by a vote or by appointment, and can be removed from office similarly. Generals have to win the hearts and minds of their commanders in order to effectively manage their armies. I have to take into consideration that some people will ignore me or disobey me and I have no recourse to punish them directly. I can't even kick anyone out of my army!

In peacetime, my role as general is more of an adviser. Making sure we have a good balance of recruitment centers, making sure proper militia is stationed in all regions, stomping down monster and undead hordes. Making sure everyone is training their commands, etc.

The fact that your realm is not at war, yet your general feels like he can micro-manage all of his commanders activities is definitely strange and atypical. You are responsible to your liege lord, you are responsible to your Marshal in wartime, that's it. Frankly, it's none of your general's business where you go or what you do during peacetime.

The General sends him a letter, not forbidding, but saying, "planning unapproved expeditions outside the realm is not the best course of action. Have you considered applying for a marshal position?"

Why? WTF do I need "approval" for?

Rather than reacting the way you did, you know you could've just asked your king or your lord for approval to go on your expedition. Then you could have told your general that it was approved. Wouldn't that have been a lot easier than getting into all this with the devs to change the whole game because of one letter of communication with one general with too much free time on his hands?

The fact is,  there were very few standing armies at that time, and the idea of a standing army goes against the idea the game should have that the Lord rules his knights. Furthermore, it means that every player always has someone ordering him about for no reason.

A Lord DOES rule his knights. A Lord has far more power over his knights than a General does. If you feel you're "always being ordered about for no reason", you either are in the most awful realm in all of Battlemaster, or you probably shouldn't be a knight in any realm. Infiltrators, priests, traders, all have far more independence than as a knight in an army.

Make it a temporary position. It only exists if there is war. Someone wants to be General? Push for a war. No war? Let nobles be free to do their Lord's bidding, or wander about as they please.

All nobles are ALWAYS free to do their Lord's bidding. The fact that you don't understand this to be true is quite puzzling.

I am sorry your relationship with your general seems to have upset you so much. I too have had problems with micromanaging generals, and as a Marshal I had to tell my general to back off. But when I was elected as the next general, I remembered all the bad things my predecessor did that irked me and tried hard to make sure I didn't repeat any of them.