No peace time Generals

[Jens Namtrah]

I'm going to throw out a radical idea.

A realm cannot have a General position unless it is in a state of war with another realm.

Let me be clear about a a few things:

YES - you can have armies
YES - you can have Marshals
NO - you cannot force a noble to be in an army (but his Lord can)

WHY?

I see too much of the "Martial Law" attitude in this game, where the automatic feeling is that the General always needs to be ordering people about - even when there's nothing to give order about.

The General has become the guy who tells you to go do civil work in Lord So-and-so's region. The General is the guy who wants to know what you're up to if you ever go outside your realm.

The General has nothing to do, but he feels he SHOULD be doing something, so he exerts needless control.

Don't believe me?

Let me pick a player & character who I greatly enjoy playing with, and so he should NOT take this as a personal attack (please!).

Miskel is in Talerium. The last time Talerium swung a sword in anger, it was against Falasan. Yes, Falasan. There are realms where the words "peace" and "Talerium" are interchangeable. Priests end their benedictions with "May Talerium be with you". Furthermore, we are allied with Cagilan to our south, and are at peace with every realm except Lyonesse. Yes, we went out on a limb a bit. Lyonesse with 2 nobles and 0 regions. Don't like them.

Ok? So, Miskel, now that we've killed off all the Glacier spawn, plans to lead an "Expeditionary Force" along the top of Atamara, fight some monsters, practice duel in Rielston & Minas. IE -  role play a bit.

The General sends him a letter, not forbidding, but saying, "planning unapproved expeditions outside the realm is not the best course of action. Have you considered applying for a marshal position?"

Why? WTF do I need "approval" for?

I think it's because too many players feel that all nobles are supposed to be in an army, sometimes under a Marshal but often under direct control of the General, and that regardless of the situation in the realm, a military dictatorship is the natural state of the game.

(Let me be clear - I don't expect any in-game issues. This just prompted some thinking on my part. Possible he even meant something different than what I understood)

The fact is,  there were very few standing armies at that time, and the idea of a standing army goes against the idea the game should have that the Lord rules his knights. Furthermore, it means that every player always has someone ordering him about for no reason.

There is no reason you need a General for cooperation. There is no reason you need a General to fight monsters. There is no reason players can't manage themselves into units to fight a monster horde that pops up somewhere.

Make it a temporary position. It only exists if there is war. Someone wants to be General? Push for a war. No war? Let nobles be free to do their Lord's bidding, or wander about as they please.

Don't misunderstand - many players like to log in and see the red orders bar so they know what is happening. That's fine - that's the Marshal leading them. That should be optional.

STOP!

Take your hands off the keyboard. Don't reply with what you were going to say before you even finished reading this. Sit back and consider - if YOUR realm didn't have a General, would it make a difference?

Or would it just lead to more role playing?

[jaune]

It could lead more roleplaying. But it would decrease realms efficienty and being able to defend it self if needed when their nobles are spread out all over continent. So, i understand generals/marshalls/rulers will that their nobles stick around their home being ready to face any possible threat pops up.


Just gotta correct something
 

Miskel is in Talerium. The last time Talerium swung a sword in anger, it was against Falasan.

Thats false, last time Talerium wage war was against Eston as far as i can remember.

[Jens Namtrah]

"it would decrease realms efficienty"

precisely! hooray!

" being able to defend it self if needed when their nobles are spread out all over continent"

not if the council actually share information with nobles, so they realized tensions were heating up with a neighboring realm.

Everyone always talks about the slightest loosening of control as if it would instantly spin into chaos.

We have a similar situation in Talerium. Hardly anyone wants to leave the two major cities. The fact is, nobles don't "spread out all over continent" as a rule. A few who like to role play go have adventures, is about all that happens.

[Anaris]

It seems to me that there's a problem with Talerium, not a problem with Generals in peacetime.

If Talerium really just doesn't do anything, and sits around waiting for CE to give them a job or whatever, this is exactly the kind of problem that should be solved by IC action on the part of the people in the realm.

And if the other nobles in the realm really don't care enough to do anything...then it seems to me that, General or no General, you're going to have pretty much the same atmosphere there, even if it's the Ruler giving these kinds of orders rather than the General.

[Jens Namtrah]

No, I'm just holding up Talerium as an example. I mean any realm that has lots of long-term peace. I'm sure you've been in this situation plenty of times in other places

If you aren't at war, you don't need a General

[jaune]

Eh. Ofcourse you need general. It would be same to say if you are not in war you dont need army.

[Andre]

I like the idea of an expedition, or Sven does... . I couldnt figure out anything else to do, so once we get back from the expedition im going to ask what i can do there, or you know, go on another expedition... ornah
Although i still think generals are needed at peacetime, although they shouldnt order people and they wouldnt have much authority as the armies arent really being used. So they would basicly just be a normal noble with maybe slightly more authority still and respect. Tho im still very new. So i dont know how much a general is needed or not when the realm isnt in war in this game.

[Jens Namtrah]

Eh. Ofcourse you need general. It would be same to say if you are not in war you dont need army.

Not the same at all. I already explained that above.

You'll need to do better than,  "We need X because of course we need X" if you want to convince me differently.

[jaune]

General is needed to organize armies. Armies are needed to keep enemy away from your lands.

[Jens Namtrah]

General is needed to organize armies. Armies are needed to keep enemy away from your lands.

Armies don't need to be organized if there isn't a war. Too many General's just get bored & either become the main Marshal, or hand out orders to the whole realm

In all my years, I've rarely seen a realm that didn't have:

1 main army
1 "home guard" of diplomats, traders or else to fight monsters
occasionally an "elite" army of a dozen or less nobles

Considering how often the General is also the Marshal of the Main Army, I don't think your argument holds much water

[jaune]

Eh, general is needed for same purpose as army is needed as marshall is need. He leads armies. When there is no war, he makes sure there is enough forces around on right place to keep things so. If you dont have general/army/marshall, neighbour will look "There is 20 regions without protection, lets take em!" They organize their assault and attack. Other realm is playing hippie game and tourist master, have no army or general to react. They have lost 5 regions on the week they elect general and gets back home from their mountain trip.

You are not forced to have general, but i dont think you should force realms to be without one. Less restrictions, more options.

[Lorgan]

If you want to lead some sort of rogue expedition, just find yourself a lord who supports your idea, have him create an army and find volunteers. You could even skip the army part though I wouldn't advise that unless you really want to go under the radar but that's pretty much impossible. Someone will always notice. Or how were you planning on hiding the battlereports from your realm?
If someone takes interest in what you are doing, that is exactly what needs to happen. If your realm is indeed eternally at peace, why not bring your plan to the realm for discussion and if they don't give you their support, attack their lack of bloodlust. Ask why they still call themselves warriors, or whatever. The fact that someone notices that you're doing something that you "shouldn't" be doing and takes an interest in it can only enhance the roleplay around your plans, not diminish it.

[Indirik]

A realm cannot have a General position unless it is in a state of war with another realm.

That's kind of like saying a realm doesn't need a judge unless someone breaks the law. Then when someone breaks the law, you can appoint a judge, have him punish the miscreant, and then be automatically demoted.

NO - you cannot force a noble to be in an army (but his Lord can)

This is already the case. Lords assign nobles to armies. Only your liege lord can force you to be in an army.

I see too much of the "Martial Law" attitude in this game, where the automatic feeling is that the General always needs to be ordering people about - even when there's nothing to give order about.

I haven't really seen a lot of this myself. In fact, I see the exact opposite most of the time. When there's no war, no one ever sends any orders for anything. Discipline gets lax. When war starts again, the armies are in piss poor condition, and the realm usually fails hard until it manages to pull itself together.

Ok? So, Miskel, now that we've killed off all the Glacier spawn, plans to lead an "Expeditionary Force" along the top of Atamara, fight some monsters, practice duel in Rielston & Minas. IE -  role play a bit.

Have your lord remove you from the army. Once you are out of the army, the marshal/general has no authority over you. Just make sure you get your lord's permission before you go gallivanting across the island, and you should be fine.

[Logar]

Just roleplay out a scenario, a pilgrimage or something. Efficient roleplaying can get you out of virtually any situation....or into one. No need to follow orders if you have a more important personal mission to attend to. Just create a reason 

[trying]

If there was no peace time general then the ruler would likely just become a de facto general.