Author Topic: Political power score  (Read 14955 times)

Buffalkill

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #15: May 01, 2014, 05:36:43 AM »
Its evidence, but not actually meaning there is political power. Just like there is evidence in a case, but it doesn't mean the person is guilty. Political power is the power to influence politics, which means that high-level positions it is easier to do generally, but does not mean that ruler always actually has the most political power or that a knight can't be powerful politically either.

How many vassals they have doesn't give them political power. One of my characters is very often on opposite sides on issues so the fact that I am his vassal does not add to his political power. Another character of mine is only a knight albeit an ambassador as well, and has a pretty decent amount of political power. More vassals /= more political power. For some it will, because they have very good  relationships with their vassal, but it doesn't apply to everyone.
I have to strongly disagree with you. The power to command armies, enforce laws, control trade, expend treasure and set tax rates are the prerogatives of those holding political offices. Individuals can be more influential than their official titles suggest. There's what's sometimes called the "power behind the throne," e.g. a trusted adviser who exercises power by virtue of his influence over the holders of political offices, formally or informally. If you can think of an effective formula to measure that, I'll add it to the feature request.

Penchant

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #16: May 01, 2014, 09:08:30 AM »
Individuals can be more influential than their official titles suggest. There's what's sometimes called the "power behind the throne," e.g. a trusted adviser who exercises power by virtue of his influence over the holders of political offices, formally or informally. If you can think of an effective formula to measure that, I'll add it to the feature request.
That is our point. People can be much more powerful than titles suggest. They can also be less powerful than their title might suggest, although it is less common. There is no formula for this though, which is the reason I am against this. It is not a person's true political power. Authoritative power, sure, but political power, no.
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Buffalkill

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #17: May 01, 2014, 05:17:04 PM »
That is our point. People can be much more powerful than titles suggest. They can also be less powerful than their title might suggest, although it is less common. There is no formula for this though, which is the reason I am against this. It is not a person's true political power. Authoritative power, sure, but political power, no.
Scores are shorthand for what is objectively knowable, i.e. official powers. It tells you that the office of the ruler of Darka is objectively more powerful than the office of the ruler of Lyonesse, that the Margrave of Echiur is more powerful than the Earl of Tofino. Power that is based on subjective criteria remains (by definition) subjective. In mathematical terms, it’s what’s known as a variable.

Anaris

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #18: May 01, 2014, 05:22:11 PM »
Scores are shorthand for what is objectively knowable, i.e. official powers. It tells you that the office of the ruler of Darka is objectively more powerful than the office of the ruler of Lyonesse, that the Margrave of Echiur is more powerful than the Earl of Tofino. Power that is based on subjective criteria remains (by definition) subjective. In mathematical terms, it’s what’s known as a variable.

But neither of those things are necessarily the case.

What if the ruler of Lyonesse happens to know that the duke of Darka's largest duchy is in his back pocket? Or has the most powerful realm on the continent as his ally, willing to back him up no matter what he says?

What if the Earl of Tofino is also the Regent of Sanguis Astroism (pre-schisms-and-collapses)? Or the margrave of Echiur is broke because his region's been starving for weeks, and he's alienated most of the lords of food-producing regions in his realm?

These are all things that any purely game-mechanical system can never measure—and they are not merely ancillary things that contribute to power; they are what is at the heart of power. Relationships. Reputations. Interactions with real people.

There is no one way to objectively measure power in BattleMaster—and certainly no way that can be programmed.
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Buffalkill

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #19: May 01, 2014, 06:19:06 PM »
But neither of those things are necessarily the case.

What if the ruler of Lyonesse happens to know that the duke of Darka's largest duchy is in his back pocket? Or has the most powerful realm on the continent as his ally, willing to back him up no matter what he says?

What if the Earl of Tofino is also the Regent of Sanguis Astroism (pre-schisms-and-collapses)? Or the margrave of Echiur is broke because his region's been starving for weeks, and he's alienated most of the lords of food-producing regions in his realm?

These are all things that any purely game-mechanical system can never measure—and they are not merely ancillary things that contribute to power; they are what is at the heart of power. Relationships. Reputations. Interactions with real people.

There is no one way to objectively measure power in BattleMaster—and certainly no way that can be programmed.
Even if the power of the unknown can be programmed, it shouldn't be. The fun of the game is in players figuring out these nuances that you're talking about for themselves. The power of the office, on the other hand, is simple background info. To give a RL example, if you go to work in Washington, you'd already know things like the constitutional powers of the president, the VP, the senate, etc. because that's all public information. But you'd need to spend time there, "roleplaying" so to speak, to learn the internal power dynamics.

Chenier

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #20: May 03, 2014, 02:17:37 AM »
Summary: The more vassals a noble has, the more power he holds. There should be a way to recognize and measure that power.
 
Details: A char gets his first point of political power by becoming a lord. It increases cumulatively with each knight he has under him, so for each additional knight, the increase in power in greater.
  • Lordship + 1 knight = 3 points of political power.
  • Lordship + 2 knights = 6 points of political power.
  • Lordship + 3 knights = 10 points of political power.

 
The duke’s political power would be the sum total of all of his lords’ political power, and a ruler’s political power would be the sum total of all of his dukes’ and all of his lords’ political power. There would also be a bonus for holding government positions. The size of the bonus would depend on the size of the realm. A marshal bonus would depend on the size of his army. Those who sponsor armies and found religions/guilds should also receive an appropriate bonus.
 
Benefits: Easy to code and easy to understand. It recognizes the inherent strength of the team, thereby promoting teamwork. It gives value to vassals and encourages dukes and lords to attract knights to their regions. By making the increments cumulative, it recognizes that a team is more powerful than the sum of its parts, which in turn promotes increased density.
 
 Possible Downside: Once you get a taste of power, it changes you.


Here is a diagram to illustrate the concept. If you can't see it, click this link: http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/File:Political_power_tree.png




What about a lord with no knights, or a lord with 5 knights? If this score is made to mean anything, and the scale is exponential, it'll just incite the realm to micro-manage knights to dump as many of them in as few regions as possible. On the other hand, if it's not exponential, then it'd be nothing more than a noble count meter.
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Buffalkill

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #21: May 03, 2014, 04:34:02 AM »
What about a lord with no knights, or a lord with 5 knights? If this score is made to mean anything, and the scale is exponential, it'll just incite the realm to micro-manage knights to dump as many of them in as few regions as possible. On the other hand, if it's not exponential, then it'd be nothing more than a noble count meter.

Certainly nothing can be as micro-managerial as having the devs corral all the characters on one side of the continent. On the other hand, this promotes increased density in a way that is player-driven and is analogous to RL. A lord with 5 knights is inherently more powerful than a lord with none. The current landscape does nothing to incentivize lords to attract knights to their region, which is why most regions have none. So we can leave it to the devs to come up with what I respectfully consider misguided projects to increase density artificially, like the glacier experiment, or we can make it so that having knights is something lords actually want. I don't see that leading to micro-management because it would be the lords who have the most to gain.

Buffalkill

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #22: May 03, 2014, 07:47:32 PM »
What about a lord with no knights, or a lord with 5 knights? If this score is made to mean anything, and the scale is exponential, it'll just incite the realm to micro-manage knights to dump as many of them in as few regions as possible. On the other hand, if it's not exponential, then it'd be nothing more than a noble count meter.
P.S. I think it's cumulative, not exponential.

Chenier

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #23: May 03, 2014, 10:13:31 PM »
P.S. I think it's cumulative, not exponential.

10 is more than three times 3.

I'd also say that if most (really?) regions have no knights, it's probably more to do with the fact that noble:region ratios everywhere are pretty low. Check out these regions without knights: most of them will have vacant estates anyone could pick up.
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Buffalkill

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #24: May 04, 2014, 12:31:05 AM »
10 is more than three times 3.

I'd also say that if most (really?) regions have no knights, it's probably more to do with the fact that noble:region ratios everywhere are pretty low. Check out these regions without knights: most of them will have vacant estates anyone could pick up.
That’s the problem. Anyone can pick them up, but they don’t because there’s no incentive, and the lords are quite content not having knights. Actually it’s better not having any because all they do is cut into your tax revenue until they get their own region. It’s not a coincidence that the most stable realms typically average around 1 – 1.5 nobles per region.

Chenier

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #25: May 04, 2014, 01:05:00 AM »
That’s the problem. Anyone can pick them up, but they don’t because there’s no incentive, and the lords are quite content not having knights. Actually it’s better not having any because all they do is cut into your tax revenue until they get their own region. It’s not a coincidence that the most stable realms typically average around 1 – 1.5 nobles per region.

There's no incentive to have an income...? Knights who don't take estates have no income.

The problem is clearly not with the lords, either, because they are putting up a ton of estates that don't get filled, despite your claim that they have no incentive to do so.

More nobles already means more power. Why do we need a new feature to repeat what is already true?
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dustole

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #26: May 04, 2014, 01:36:45 AM »
More knights is better for a region.  You get better efficiency and your region produces more gold.  I make more in Idapur with full knights and estates at 100% than I do with no knights. In fact,I poached several from other Lords in Arcaea.   My knights make way more than what an average knight makes.  Because of that I actually make a lot more gold.   
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Buffalkill

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #27: May 04, 2014, 02:20:15 AM »
There's no incentive to have an income...? Knights who don't take estates have no income.

The problem is clearly not with the lords, either, because they are putting up a ton of estates that don't get filled, despite your claim that they have no incentive to do so.
Knights will take an estate, usually in city if they can, but there’s no benefit to the lord. It just means he has to share his gold with somebody.


More nobles already means more power.
No it doesn’t. One noble can rule a region just as easily as 4, and the more nobles there are, the less revenue. That’s why the most powerful realm on Dwilight (Morek) has only 1.3 nobles per region, and the most powerful realm on Beluaterra (Riombara) has about 1.2 nobles per region.


Why do we need a new feature to repeat what is already true?

First of all it’s not true. Secondly, the benefits include the following:
•   It recognizes the inherent strength of the team, thereby promoting teamwork.
•   It assigns value to knights and encourages dukes and lords to attract knights to their regions.
•   By making the increments cumulative, it recognizes that a team is more powerful than the sum of its parts, which in turn promotes increased density.
•   It provides you with some background information about the char you’re interacting with and where you rank in comparison.


Look, there are already values assigned to honour, prestige, and about 20 different fame scores. This IMO has a lot more practical use than those other ones, and frankly, there's no downside. Either players will find it useful, or they'll ignore it.

Buffalkill

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #28: May 04, 2014, 02:38:55 AM »
More knights is better for a region.  You get better efficiency and your region produces more gold.  I make more in Idapur with full knights and estates at 100% than I do with no knights. In fact,I poached several from other Lords in Arcaea.   My knights make way more than what an average knight makes.  Because of that I actually make a lot more gold.
I'd be interested to see your bookkeeping because I find that hard to believe. As a lord you get 50% of the tax gold from vacant estates. Occupied estates only give you the "lord's share", usually around 10-15%.

Chenier

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #29: May 04, 2014, 04:02:36 AM »
Knights will take an estate, usually in city if they can, but there’s no benefit to the lord. It just means he has to share his gold with somebody.

You say lords have no incentives to set up estates as they only lose gold, and yet you recognize that knights have no trouble finding vacant estates. Why do you want to incite people to do things they clearly need no incentive to do and are already doing anyways?

No it doesn’t. One noble can rule a region just as easily as 4, and the more nobles there are, the less revenue. That’s why the most powerful realm on Dwilight (Morek) has only 1.3 nobles per region, and the most powerful realm on Beluaterra (Riombara) has about 1.2 nobles per region.

You oppose what I say without contradicting it. I said "more nobles means more power". I did not talk about density in that sentence.  I don't have access to the stats, but Riombara has a lot of nobles, hence they have a lot of power. They also have a ton of wealthy regions, far superior to average. As for Morek, it has the second-highest noble count, and is pretty much tied with a bunch of other realms which, a few months ago, could easily have been said to be comparable in strength. But again, all of these top realms in strength are the top realms in noble count.

More nobles means more resources, be it by being able to manage a greater number of regions or by having a superior tax tolerance and tax efficiency. Density changes little to this, it's all about raw noble count.

First of all it’s not true. Secondly, the benefits include the following:
•   It recognizes the inherent strength of the team, thereby promoting teamwork.
•   It assigns value to knights and encourages dukes and lords to attract knights to their regions.
•   By making the increments cumulative, it recognizes that a team is more powerful than the sum of its parts, which in turn promotes increased density.
•   It provides you with some background information about the char you’re interacting with and where you rank in comparison.


Look, there are already values assigned to honour, prestige, and about 20 different fame scores. This IMO has a lot more practical use than those other ones, and frankly, there's no downside. Either players will find it useful, or they'll ignore it.

It's true enough that the realms you've stated as super powers are the realms with high noble counts. The three realms with the most nobles on Dwilight are the three realms with the strongest militaries. I'm pretty sure similar statements can be said about the rest of the continents.

It also doesn't promote teamwork, it promotes internal competition.

It doesn't really assign any additional value, because clearly knights are already valued given that vacant estates are abundant and many lords try to attract knights, and because I've not seen any suggestion as to what this new stat should do, and vanity stats don't create value.

The increments are flawed by design because, depending on how you calculate them, they either reward large realms that need no additional rewarding just for being big, or they incite large realms to micro-manage estate distribution which is most unlikely to generate any fun. Nor is simply adding a new stat likely to change anything about density, because density will only change if the number of nobles on a continent increases or the number of regions on it decreases, and this stat has no apparent power over either.

As for background, we can already look up H/P and the titles are all displayed. People don't really pay attention to the other game-given stats (H/P and fame, namely), why would they care for this one? There are downsides. I already mentioned them. Others expressed concerns as well. This feature would only have downsides, and no advantage.
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