Author Topic: Political power score  (Read 14948 times)

Penchant

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #30: May 04, 2014, 06:44:44 AM »
I'd be interested to see your bookkeeping because I find that hard to believe. As a lord you get 50% of the tax gold from vacant estates. Occupied estates only give you the "lord's share", usually around 10-15%.
You say he is wrong, yet you claim that because lord's share is usually around 10-15%. Why is it usually that low? Because lords aren't as greedy you make them out to be.

Knights are only a harm to lords if they choose, because they can take up to 50% if they want of their knight's income, meaning the lord would lose nothing, yet the region/realm gains gold. So in other words, lords aren't really that greedy after all and there really is no downside to knights, despite you claiming so. A lord who wants max gold and power can give himself the largest estate he can and have a lord's share of 50%. Simple as that.

As an add-on, you didn't read his post that well, because he said the region produces more gold, not his lord gains more gold, because he loses no gold, yet the region really does make more gold. (Assuming 50% lord's share which he probably doesn't do because his city is so rich he has no need to.)

To all your benefits you listed of this, its false, because a number that holds no power is simply a number, and thus isn't promoting any of things you claimed because people don't care about numbers, they care about power. To the recognizing a character's rank, that is already done via their title. If they are a duke and you are lord, they are more powerful, simple as that.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 06:48:10 AM by Penchant »
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Buffalkill

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #31: May 04, 2014, 07:08:35 AM »

Holy !@#$ Chénier! I almost didn't respond to this because it's so damn long, but you caught me in a good mood so here I go. :)
You say lords have no incentives to set up estates as they only lose gold, and yet you recognize that knights have no trouble finding vacant estates.
No, I said that lords have no incentive to attract knights to their region and to keep them there. I’ll say it again: As a lord, there is NO benefit to having knights residing in your region. As for the creation of estates, it might be that vacant estates yield more tax gold than wild lands, but most of the estates were probably set up when it was still the “new” estate system and players had higher expectations.
Why do you want to incite people to do things they clearly need no incentive to do and are already doing anyways?
You've probably noticed that several regions are being surgically removed from play on account of noble density being too low. I haven’t heard anyone disagreeing with the premise, although the remedy is certainly controversial and IMO wrong. Most people seem to agree that increasing density would be good for the overall community. Unfortunately the common good is at odds with self-interest, so if you want to increase noble density, the first step should be to calibrate the dynamics of the game to make increased density beneficial to more individuals.
You oppose what I say without contradicting it. I said "more nobles means more power". I did not talk about density in that sentence. I don't have access to the stats, but Riombara has a lot of nobles, hence they have a lot of power. They also have a ton of wealthy regions, far superior to average. As for Morek, it has the second-highest noble count, and is pretty much tied with a bunch of other realms which, a few months ago, could easily have been said to be comparable in strength. But again, all of these top realms in strength are the top realms in noble count.
They have the most nobles and the fewest knights because knights, in the current reality, are parasitic. It’s not a coincidence that the most powerful realms have the fewest knights.
More nobles means more resources, be it by being able to manage a greater number of regions or by having a superior tax tolerance and tax efficiency. Density changes little to this, it's all about raw noble count.
What resources are there besides food and gold? Knights do nothing to produce either one. The only other resource is “human resources,” i.e. nobles. You can theoretically have as many regions as you have nobles without any problems. Is that what we should be aspiring to, a 1:1 density rate?
It's true enough that the realms you've stated as super powers are the realms with high noble counts. The three realms with the most nobles on Dwilight are the three realms with the strongest militaries. I'm pretty sure similar statements can be said about the rest of the continents.
The problem with that is those “super power” realms are currently models of success. We’re all trying to climb to the top of the heap, but the ones who get there are invariably the ones with the lowest density rates. That proves the point I’ve been trying to make, that there is no advantage to having knights.
It also doesn't promote teamwork, it promotes internal competition.
It might promote competition between lords and between dukes, which wouldn’t be a bad thing, but it places greater importance on the relationship between knight and lord. Currently it’s a parasitic relationship.
It doesn't really assign any additional value, because clearly knights are already valued given that vacant estates are abundant and many lords try to attract knights, and because I've not seen any suggestion as to what this new stat should do, and vanity stats don't create value.
If you scroll up you can see a few suggestions about what it should do, but the possibilities of what it could do are only limited by the imagination. You’re a smart enough guy, I’m sure you could think of some additional ones if you shifted your energy away from criticizing toward being constructive.
The increments are flawed by design because, depending on how you calculate them, they either reward large realms that need no additional rewarding just for being big, or they incite large realms to micro-manage estate distribution which is most unlikely to generate any fun.
I’m afraid you’re wrong again. It wouldn’t reward Morek or Riombara because they don’t have enough knights. It would reward D’Hara, Barca and Luria Nova because they currently have the most knights.
Nor is simply adding a new stat likely to change anything about density, because density will only change if the number of nobles on a continent increases or the number of regions on it decreases, and this stat has no apparent power over either.
Personally I’m in favour of increasing the number of nobles.
As for background, we can already look up H/P and the titles are all displayed.

H/P is not a good metric for the reasons stated here: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5655.0.html
And titles give you limited incite. For example, the president of the US may be equal in rank to the president of the DRC, however one of them has more power than the other.
People don't really pay attention to the other game-given stats (H/P and fame, namely), why would they care for this one? There are downsides. I already mentioned them. Others expressed concerns as well. This feature would only have downsides, and no advantage.
They don’t pay attention to them because they’re too arbitrary to have any practical use. A high honour score should indicate that someone is extremely honourable, but it doesn’t, so people ignore it because it’s not rooted in reality. In contrast, a high political power score indicates that many people are bound to you by a figurative oath of fealty.

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #32: May 04, 2014, 07:35:21 AM »
You say he is wrong, yet you claim that because lord's share is usually around 10-15%. Why is it usually that low? Because lords aren't as greedy you make them out to be.
I'm not here to judge, I'm not calling anyone greedy, but people often do what is in their own self-interest.


Knights are only a harm to lords if they choose, because they can take up to 50% if they want of their knight's income, meaning the lord would lose nothing, yet the region/realm gains gold. So in other words, lords aren't really that greedy after all and there really is no downside to knights, despite you claiming so. A lord who wants max gold and power can give himself the largest estate he can and have a lord's share of 50%. Simple as that.
The realm gains more gold by making the knight a lord.

As an add-on, you didn't read his post that well, because he said the region produces more gold, not his lord gains more gold, because he loses no gold, yet the region really does make more gold. (Assuming 50% lord's share which he probably doesn't do because his city is so rich he has no need to.)
Apparently I read it better than you because he said quote: "I make more in Idapur with full knights and estates at 100% than I do with no knights." ;)


To all your benefits you listed of this, its false, because a number that holds no power is simply a number, and thus isn't promoting any of things you claimed because people don't care about numbers, they care about power.
Then why do we have scores for honour, prestige and fame?


To the recognizing a character's rank, that is already done via their title. If they are a duke and you are lord, they are more powerful, simple as that.
I have to disagree. The Prime Minister of the UK has more political power than the Queen, even though she is superior in rank. The President of the US has more power than the President of the Congo, even though they are equal in rank. A title that holds no power is simply a title.

Penchant

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #33: May 04, 2014, 08:53:54 AM »
(1)I'm not here to judge, I'm not calling anyone greedy, but people often do what is in their own self-interest.

(2)The realm gains more gold by making the knight a lord.
(3)Apparently I read it better than you because he said quote: "I make more in Idapur with full knights and estates at 100% than I do with no knights." ;)

(4)Then why do we have scores for honour, prestige and fame?

(5)I have to disagree. The Prime Minister of the UK has more political power than the Queen, even though she is superior in rank. The President of the US has more power than the President of the Congo, even though they are equal in rank. A title that holds no power is simply a title.
I don't feel like splitting up your message 5 times so for ease, I put in numbers to your different parts.

(1) That is simply wrong. People like to think they are, but they often aren't. Anyways, as you said, they are usually doing a 10-15% which is not in their best interest as you have been claiming it is, thus why are they doing it?

(2)That is just dumb. Obviously they make more by gaining regions, but you can't just get more regions, you have to take them and people go out of there way to stop you. More regions for realm A means less for realm B, so realm B tends to not just let that happen. On the other hand, realms cant forcefully stop the loss of nobles. In order to do that they must convince their nobles (or players) to stay. I say players because people will leave a realm because they are no longer having fun there, which I can't disagree with doing.

To respond to what you said to Chenier that is related, you are flat out wrong. Morek's current condition is not a model for success as their realm is not thriving. You do not seem to fully understand BM. Two things matter for a realm's power, realm size, and realm density. I feel you would agree on that, but you are completely wrong on how you are taking it from there.

High density realms are much more powerful than low density realms. Morek could probably get its ass kicked if Astrum attacked and maybe say Swordfell too. Its a big realm, its advantage, but it has low density which is bad. When Morek was really powerful, it was high density. Now it is much weaker. Luria Nova is a very high density realm, and is very powerful. Luria was equal in size to Morek but due to rogues causing starvation of which Morek was impacted little, they are smaller. Luria is being attacked by 3 realms and doing a decent job considering the circumstances. I will not elaborate on the topic any longer, but high density is better than low density. You are simply ignorant on the subject and I do not have all day to talk about why high density and more nobles is very important.

(3) I am going to say is a matter of interpretation. If you don't selectively quote you will see that he specified the region twice, before that and so I interpreted that way. My apologies for the remark though because after rereading I certainly see where you are getting your interpretation from.

(4) Honor, prestige, and fame all have IG effects. That is why.

(5) Ah, so you know the population of USA and the population of Congo off the top of your head? No, you don't. You don't need to know a country's population to know their power, nor is it the only factor that makes them more powerful. I would definitely say that USA is much more powerful politically than India despite India having a larger population. And to your Queen vs Prime Minister remark, that is false. The Queen is head of state, the Prime Minister head of government. They are not in the same hierarchy and thus claiming the queen to be of higher rank is wrong.
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Buffalkill

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #34: May 04, 2014, 10:15:08 AM »
I don't feel like splitting up your message 5 times so for ease, I put in numbers to your different parts.

(1) That is simply wrong. People like to think they are, but they often aren't. Anyways, as you said, they are usually doing a 10-15% which is not in their best interest as you have been claiming it is, thus why are they doing it?

(2)That is just dumb. Obviously they make more by gaining regions, but you can't just get more regions, you have to take them and people go out of there way to stop you. More regions for realm A means less for realm B, so realm B tends to not just let that happen. On the other hand, realms cant forcefully stop the loss of nobles. In order to do that they must convince their nobles (or players) to stay. I say players because people will leave a realm because they are no longer having fun there, which I can't disagree with doing.

(2a) To respond to what you said to Chenier that is related, you are flat out wrong. Morek's current condition is not a model for success as their realm is not thriving. You do not seem to fully understand BM. Two things matter for a realm's power, realm size, and realm density. I feel you would agree on that, but you are completely wrong on how you are taking it from there.

High density realms are much more powerful than low density realms. Morek could probably get its ass kicked if Astrum attacked and maybe say Swordfell too. Its a big realm, its advantage, but it has low density which is bad. When Morek was really powerful, it was high density. Now it is much weaker. Luria Nova is a very high density realm, and is very powerful. Luria was equal in size to Morek but due to rogues causing starvation of which Morek was impacted little, they are smaller. Luria is being attacked by 3 realms and doing a decent job considering the circumstances. I will not elaborate on the topic any longer, but high density is better than low density. You are simply ignorant on the subject and I do not have all day to talk about why high density and more nobles is very important.

(3) I am going to say is a matter of interpretation. If you don't selectively quote you will see that he specified the region twice, before that and so I interpreted that way. My apologies for the remark though because after rereading I certainly see where you are getting your interpretation from.

(4) Honor, prestige, and fame all have IG effects. That is why.

(5) Ah, so you know the population of USA and the population of Congo off the top of your head? No, you don't. You don't need to know a country's population to know their power, nor is it the only factor that makes them more powerful. I would definitely say that USA is much more powerful politically than India despite India having a larger population. And to your Queen vs Prime Minister remark, that is false. The Queen is head of state, the Prime Minister head of government. They are not in the same hierarchy and thus claiming the queen to be of higher rank is wrong.



1.   It doesn’t matter if it’s 15% or 40% or 50%, there’s no advantage to having a knight. They can maybe break even by setting the lord’s rate to 50%, but they do not earn more gold by having more knights. That said, I think on the taxes screen there’s a footnote recommending something like 10-15%. That that said, this:
I always put 50% lord's share on my knights. If they don't like it, they can get the f out!


2.   I agree, it is dumb, but I didn’t make the rules. The game is structured so that realms will aspire to achieve a 1:1 density. That doesn’t mean they’ll be successful, but they move towards that end to the best of their ability.


2a.    Now that is dumb. Asylon, the highest density realm on Dwilight AND (until recently) the highest noble count, got its ass kicked by Morek and is on the verge of extinction. The second highest density realm on Dwilight is Barca. To be clear, Asylon and Barca are currently among the weakest realms on Dwilight. The highest density realm on Beluaterra is Caelum. Caelum is also the weakest realm on Beluaterra. As for your claim that Morek used to have higher density, I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Currently they have 1.32 nobles per region. Before the invasion they had 1.16 nobles per region.


4.   They have some IG effect, not much. Political power score, if implemented, could have significant IG effect and it would have a solid logical basis, unlike H/P/F which are quite arbitrary.


5.   You said that a duke is always more powerful than a lord simply by virtue of their titles. You’re wrong about that and you’re wrong about the Queen. It doesn't matter what the population of the Congo is or the price of tea in China. You know without thinking which country is more powerful, and that's the point of the political power score, that you should know straight away who the power brokers are.

vonGenf

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #35: May 04, 2014, 12:12:52 PM »
I have to disagree. The Prime Minister of the UK has more political power than the Queen, even though she is superior in rank. The President of the US has more power than the President of the Congo, even though they are equal in rank. A title that holds no power is simply a title.

According to your scale though, the Queen would have a higher "political score" than the Prime Minister. That's the issue with simply counting knights. If it doesn't tell you that the Queen does not hold actual power, then it's not a useful ranking.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Chenier

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #36: May 04, 2014, 02:23:27 PM »
I won't bother replying to all of this anymore, because it's the same things that get repeated.

You start off on false premises (that there is no incentives for lords to set up estates for knights) and follow up with measures that wouldn't in any way help the problems you've identified (low noble density)

You fail to properly identify cause and effect in all of your arguments, and simply ignore arguments and painfully obvious evidence to the contrary.
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Re: Political power score
« Reply #37: May 04, 2014, 05:27:40 PM »
Why do we need a score determining political power? If someone has political power, they do, and they can utilize it, they don't need a game mechanic determining a vague concept for them, which may or may not agree with that actual political situation in a realm. I've seen knights who have wielded more political power than Dukes, and Lords with more political power than Kings. Giving someone a political power score purely based on position is folly. This game has seen more than one puppet King and more than one character who was the real power behind the throne.
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Buffalkill

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #38: May 04, 2014, 06:29:59 PM »
According to your scale though, the Queen would have a higher "political score" than the Prime Minister. That's the issue with simply counting knights. If it doesn't tell you that the Queen does not hold actual power, then it's not a useful ranking.
BM is a lot simpler than the real world, e.g. there are no parliaments in BM, so it's easier to reduce political power to a single number value. Still you make a valid point. The type of government could be factored into the equation. I'd be interested if anybody has any thoughts about what impact government type has on political power. I've only played in a few realms, all monarchies, so I'm not totally familiar with the nuances of different types of government.

vonGenf

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #39: May 04, 2014, 07:04:13 PM »
BM is a lot simpler than the real world, e.g. there are no parliaments in BM, so it's easier to reduce political power to a single number value. Still you make a valid point. The type of government could be factored into the equation. I'd be interested if anybody has any thoughts about what impact government type has on political power. I've only played in a few realms, all monarchies, so I'm not totally familiar with the nuances of different types of government.

Realms vary widely as to their types of governance, and the label "monarchy" or "republic" means very little nowadays. The best (or worst, depending on the point of view)-case example if probably D'Hara. I don't think I have it in me to summarize D'Hara in a forum post right now, but in case you're interested you know where to look.

Suffice to say that your assertion that "there are no parliaments in BM" is demonstrably false.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Buffalkill

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #40: May 04, 2014, 07:35:23 PM »
I won't bother replying to all of this anymore, because it's the same things that get repeated.

You start off on false premises (that there is no incentives for lords to set up estates for knights) and follow up with measures that wouldn't in any way help the problems you've identified (low noble density)

You fail to properly identify cause and effect in all of your arguments, and simply ignore arguments and painfully obvious evidence to the contrary.
If you quoted my false premises correctly then I wouldn't need to repeat them. You equated the existence of vacant estates to proof that lords benefit by having knights. I said there is no benefit for a lord to have knights residing in his region. If you think I'm wrong, please tell me what the benefits are.


As for the vacant estates, I don't know who set them up or what they thought they would gain from them. They were already there when I arrived. I will say that it took me a while, after becoming a lord, to understand the dynamics of the game, so I probably thought there was some benefit to having knights, and I made a point of inviting new arrivals to my region. Now, if they want to live in my region, fine (everybody has to live somewhere, and I don't want be the cause for some newbie to stop playing) but I'm not under the illusion that it's a mutually beneficial relationship.

Buffalkill

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #41: May 04, 2014, 07:44:17 PM »
Realms vary widely as to their types of governance, and the label "monarchy" or "republic" means very little nowadays. The best (or worst, depending on the point of view)-case example if probably D'Hara. I don't think I have it in me to summarize D'Hara in a forum post right now, but in case you're interested you know where to look.

Suffice to say that your assertion that "there are no parliaments in BM" is demonstrably false.
I stand corrected. King Chénier and Queen Elizabeth are kindred spirits. The type of government should definitely be factored into the equation.

Buffalkill

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #42: May 04, 2014, 08:24:10 PM »
Why do we need a score determining political power? If someone has political power, they do, and they can utilize it, they don't need a game mechanic determining a vague concept for them, which may or may not agree with that actual political situation in a realm. I've seen knights who have wielded more political power than Dukes, and Lords with more political power than Kings. Giving someone a political power score purely based on position is folly. This game has seen more than one puppet King and more than one character who was the real power behind the throne.
Indeed. I recently watched the movie Gladiator, "Today I saw a slave become more powerful than the Emperor of Rome."  8)  It's not a deterministic system. It takes objectively knowable information and boils it down to a number. It doesn't preclude someone from being the so-called power behind the throne, but such power is generally hidden.

Penchant

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #43: May 04, 2014, 08:57:45 PM »
Indeed. I recently watched the movie Gladiator, "Today I saw a slave become more powerful than the Emperor of Rome."  8)  It's not a deterministic system. It takes objectively knowable information and boils it down to a number. It doesn't preclude someone from being the so-called power behind the throne, but such power is generally hidden.
You aren't providing useful information. Who has more knights doesn't help me decide if they are more powerful politically. Who has more lords doesn't help me decide which dukes are more powerful politically. And I don't need to know that Arcaea has a lot of nobles to know they are a politically powerful realm.

You just keep saying this idea is so helpful and so useful and yet you have yet to explain how that is true. Listing benefits without explaining how this political power score somehow equates to those benefits is not explaining how this is helpful or useful.
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Buffalkill

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Re: Political power score
« Reply #44: May 04, 2014, 09:53:45 PM »
You aren't providing useful information. Who has more knights doesn't help me decide if they are more powerful politically. Who has more lords doesn't help me decide which dukes are more powerful politically. And I don't need to know that Arcaea has a lot of nobles to know they are a politically powerful realm.

You just keep saying this idea is so helpful and so useful and yet you have yet to explain how that is true. Listing benefits without explaining how this political power score somehow equates to those benefits is not explaining how this is helpful or useful.
I originally thought of this feature as an addition to the honour/prestige indices. It's not that I think it would be a silver bullet for all of BM's problems, but I think it would be more relevant than H/P currently are. I also proposed changes to H/P: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5655.0.html


I also think that it could possibly motivate some lords and dukes to try harder to attract knights to their regions, since doing so would boost their score. Again, it's not a silver bullet, which is why I also proposed some other FR's to hopefully go along with it, and I have a few more ideas that I haven't written down yet.
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5599.0.html
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5655.0.html


A lot of people have been attacking the devs for coming up with the glacier experiment to address the low noble density and poor player retention problem, but I'm not seeing a lot of alternatives being put forward. Frankly I think it's easy to attack an idea (and I've criticized the glacier thing) but criticizing without proposing a better idea is just criticizing.