in game misogyny?

[Qyasogk]

So no, misogyny or prejudice of any kind are not inherent to the atmosphere.

Actually I would say prejudice is quite a normal aspect of human civilizations, past, present, AND imaginary. It's clearly how we are fundamentally wired socially. That we can so easily demonize any group as the "other" is what makes war possible after all.

[Eirikr]

Actually I would say prejudice is quite a normal aspect of human civilizations, past, present, AND imaginary. It's clearly how we are fundamentally wired socially. That we can so easily demonize any group as the "other" is what makes war possible after all.

I didn't disagree. It's not the BM system that creates it, though. All prejudice in the game is created by the wills of the players. It is entirely their choice whether or not to insert some kind of prejudice... that does not mean it is a void to be filled as some seem to be suggesting. The game could operate just fine, even observing SMA, without any prejudice at all.

I definitely don't want to take a side here, I can see merits to both arguments. I just had to quash the idea that "We're not roleplaying enough prejudice as it is!" That is a silly argument.

[Eduardo Almighty]

You must decide if you want to play a serious and adult roleplaying game or something more light. While BM is not entirely Medieval Europe, how many wars without violence and human nature the humankind has fought along its history? Well, we are playing a war game. Not just a strategic one, but a living one - since we role characters. The main question is always the same... separate IC form OOC. Also, your concept of "low fantasy game". The characters must be equals dancing around the bonfire? Or they can have their differences (any difference)? We are playing humans in their totality or just a bit of this, a bit of that!?

Erik prefers to appoint Ladies for his Duchy. Men will cry!?

[McManus_Clan]

I was wondering about this as well when I first joined.

Fantasy realms are often devoid of sexism. Can you think of one sexist moment in "Lord of the Rings"? Or even one explicitly feminist? It is written almost entirely devoid of any gender commentary, as are many other fantasy novels. It is not necessitated by the genre that sexism be present.

Obviously, prejudice creates conflict, but conflict creates plot, and plot creates change, and change is the story. On the other hand, games already have a general problem of being a "boy's club", and RPGs in particular.

Oppression against women in society is far worse than most people realize. 1 in 3 women in the world will experience sexual assault or other violence. Most women experience discrimination in the workplace. Part of the problem is that it's unseen, viewed by many cultures as shameful, and often viewed by the victims themselves as shameful. The biggest contributing factor to the prevalence of the problem is that it remains out of sight.

So we can continue to hide from it, and pretend it doesn't exist, but that doesn't really help. 

That being said, a character who is constantly being misogynistic would be really irritating, regardless of the reasons for it.

[Constantine]

Fantasy realms are often devoid of sexism. Can you think of one sexist moment in "Lord of the Rings"?

Are you kidding? It's a staple of sexist literature where women are mostly depicted as furniture. :P

[McManus_Clan]

The keyword here is "often". I guess I should be more specific as to say good fantasy literature is often devoid of sexism. Yes, many terrible authors stoop to hyper-masculine tropes, but you can say that about any genre in any medium.

Also, you are arguing with basically the least important statement I made in my entire post.

[Gustav Kuriga]

I was wondering about this as well when I first joined.

Fantasy realms are often devoid of sexism. Can you think of one sexist moment in "Lord of the Rings"? Or even one explicitly feminist? It is written almost entirely devoid of any gender commentary, as are many other fantasy novels. It is not necessitated by the genre that sexism be present.

Obviously, prejudice creates conflict, but conflict creates plot, and plot creates change, and change is the story. On the other hand, games already have a general problem of being a "boy's club", and RPGs in particular.

Oppression against women in society is far worse than most people realize. 1 in 3 women in the world will experience sexual assault or other violence. Most women experience discrimination in the workplace. Part of the problem is that it's unseen, viewed by many cultures as shameful, and often viewed by the victims themselves as shameful. The biggest contributing factor to the prevalence of the problem is that it remains out of sight.

So we can continue to hide from it, and pretend it doesn't exist, but that doesn't really help. 

That being said, a character who is constantly being misogynistic would be really irritating, regardless of the reasons for it.

Did you know that 1 in 6 men experience sexual assault or violence? It's not as one way as you say...

[McManus_Clan]

Did you know that 1 in 6 men experience sexual assault or violence? It's not as one way as you say...

The figure I have for America is 1 in 20 men, but it is generally acknowledged that getting accurate statistics on sexual assault vs. men is virtually impossible due to the even greater stigma of male rape. It is DEFINITELY also a huge problem, and for the same reasons. I am in no way saying that it is "one way".

The difference, of course, is that most sexual assaults perpetrated against males are done by other males. I do not mean to sound sexist, but studies show that women, by and large, just simply do not rape. Women make up just barely 1% of rapists, whereas the other 99% are men.

Domestic abuse is another story, and in America the number of incidents of female on male spousal abuse are actually on the rise.

Do not mistake my feminist perspective for zealotry. We were talking about misogyny vs. women in a medieval setting, so that is what I wrote about. I do think it is important for people of all genders to step forward and share their experiences so all can heal. 

[Qyasogk]

good fantasy literature is often devoid of sexism. Yes, many terrible authors stoop to hyper-masculine tropes, but you can say that about any genre in any medium.

Again, sexism is a real fundamental part of how we're wired. A world without any sexism that featured humans would be a strange world indeed. But again there is a difference between a sexist author who writes sexist prose, and a really nice guy who writes characters that are sexist.

Fundamentally, I think as long as we treat our female players with the same dignity and respect we treat anyone else, how our characters treat female characters should be entirely up to the whims of the players.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Again, sexism is a real fundamental part of how we're wired. A world without any sexism that featured humans would be a strange world indeed. But again there is a difference between a sexist author who writes sexist prose, and a really nice guy who writes characters that are sexist.

Fundamentally, I think as long as we treat our female players with the same dignity and respect we treat anyone else, how our characters treat female characters should be entirely up to the whims of the players.

Not to mention several female players have already said that they do not see a problem with sexist characters. Something that some of our morally outraged male players have not taken notice of.  ::)

[Constantine]

Also, you are arguing with basically the least important statement I made in my entire post.

It was just a light-hearted comment.
I do believe a casual online game is not a place for moral crusades and rants about rape and domestic violence.  :-\

[McManus_Clan]

Again, sexism is a real fundamental part of how we're wired. A world without any sexism that featured humans would be a strange world indeed. But again there is a difference between a sexist author who writes sexist prose, and a really nice guy who writes characters that are sexist.

Fundamentally, I think as long as we treat our female players with the same dignity and respect we treat anyone else, how our characters treat female characters should be entirely up to the whims of the players.

See, the possible problem with that argument is that not everyone necessarily agrees with. For instance, me. I don't believe that anyone is 'fundamentally' sexist; that's something that one chooses to believe. We are sentient beings, after all. No one is "born" sexist, and the way we are now is not inevitably how we always will be. At least, that's what I think.

Besides, the point of a fantasy world is that it's not our world. It's not just human- it's orc/elf/dragon/whatever else you want to throw in there. One might argue that the fantasy genre is fundamentally escapist, and constructing a eutopic world perfectly in bounds of what is acceptable in the genre. Not everything has to be dark, gritty, and realistic. Sometimes it's just nice to escape into a world of purely imaginative fun.

I do think that in-game misogyny, if done properly, could fuel some great plot points. However, it could also hurt someone's feelings. Women who play the game who have experienced sexual abuse may just simply not want to be exposed to a sexist character, regardless of the player's intentions (though 9 times out of 10 she will not say so).

Like most everything else, it's a little more complicated than simply "yes, it's good" or "no, it's bad".

[McManus_Clan]

It was just a light-hearted comment.
I do believe a casual online game is not a place for moral crusades and rants about rape and domestic violence.  :-\

Sorry, but this issue is really important to me. I don't think there is such thing as a "wrong place" for this conversation. As I said, the biggest part of the problem is that people refuse to talk about it. I apologize if that makes you uncomfortable.

[Indirik]

Look, the BattleMaster general discussion forum is not a place for crusades about sexual abuse awareness. If that's your goal, then I'm sorry, but take it somewhere else. I'm not "refusing to talk about it", but Constantine is right: This isn't the place for it.

[McManus_Clan]

Look, the BattleMaster general discussion forum is not a place for crusades about sexual abuse awareness. If that's your goal, then I'm sorry, but take it somewhere else. I'm not "refusing to talk about it", but Constantine is right: This isn't the place for it.

Er, lemme clarify.

The issue I'm talking about now, the one that I feel is important, is specifically misogyny as it relates to the game and the fantasy genre. I'm not the one who called it a crusade, and it's really not- I just didn't feel it was necessary to refute that assertion because it is not relevant to the topic.

I'm just trying to cover all the bases, make sure all of the information is on the table. That's what is important to me: make sure that any decisions that are made or opinions formed on this subject are made with every perspective in mind. It's not like I think we can put an end to rape in the Battlemaster forums. But we can make the most responsible decisions by having all the information.

Really not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers here...