Player of Atanamirs account lock.

[Dishman]

I've always liked playing with Alex. He was always fair, helpful, and supportive. I've seen him mix IC and OOC, and if he got nasty with it then punishment is understandable. It isn't like the player is banned from the game, right? Alex can come back, start fresh, but losing his old family breaks a bit of his OOC investment.

The way the Titan Message was worded made it sound like Alex was a dick, though. He wasn't, really. He seems like one of those 'passionate' people who really get invested. It is good in that he was a backbone character to a realm (and its players), it is bad that he was prone to getting really mad and lashing out. We all mix IC and OOC to some degree and it pops out in different ways. Addressing this would be better than the blame-game.

[Gustav Kuriga]

I've always liked playing with Alex. He was always fair, helpful, and supportive. I've seen him mix IC and OOC, and if he got nasty with it then punishment is understandable. It isn't like the player is banned from the game, right? Alex can come back, start fresh, but losing his old family breaks a bit of his OOC investment.

The way the Titan Message was worded made it sound like Alex was a dick, though. He wasn't, really. He seems like one of those 'passionate' people who really get invested. It is good in that he was a backbone character to a realm (and its players), it is bad that he was prone to getting really mad and lashing out. We all mix IC and OOC to some degree and it pops out in different ways. Addressing this would be better than the blame-game.

Yeah, he was a dick. He repeatedly harassed several players, and was repeatedly warned and punished for such actions. The amount of delusion and denial I see from some people in this thread is amazing...

[Zakilevo]

He seems like one of those 'passionate' people who really get invested.

Passion can go both ways. They can like something obsessively while they can hate something obsessively as well.

[Anaris]

There seems to be a perception—not just here, or just in BattleMaster, but in society in general—that people are either Nice, or they are Nasty. That if you met them, and chatted with them, and they seemed like a perfectly ordinary, nice person to deal with, that must mean that they would never really do anything mean to anyone. (And vice versa, if you bumped into them on the street and they cursed you out, they must be mean people who never do anything nice for anyone.)

This is not true. Alexandros was a nice guy to a lot of people. Hell, I liked him for a long time. His character Castamir was general under my character Alanna (the same Alanna who just died on Dwilight) on the first South-East Island, and at that time, I called him my friend. He was friendly, loyal, and yes, very passionate about Ikalak. Even for years later, I never had any real quarrel with him; we just weren't playing in the same places for a long time. I have absolutely no problem with the statements many people have made that he was a nice guy, a good player, a mentor, and a champion for Perdan.

However, even ten years ago, I also remember him being absolutely ruthless to those who he viewed as opposing him. This was true of our enemies as a realm, and even his political enemies within the realm. I don't specifically remember his ruthlessness causing him to be mean OOC back then, but I can't say for sure that he didn't, either—and SEI Ikalak was a realm he'd only been in for a few months, not several years.

If he had recognized this aggressively protective streak in himself as a bad thing back then, and made an effort to suppress it, I think that things would have been very different, and the East Continent might have been a less stressful place to play for many people in the intervening years. But clearly, he did not suppress it, and it grew to drive him to the actions that led to this pass.

[Thorryworry]

Tim,

You said it... if we had known....

That's way I'm pro of Titan reports going public. Then we could help not only the player but the rest of the ragequiters.

BTW can they return if they wish?

[Blue Star]

Some yes, some no. Which only goes to show that if you shoot at enough things with a shotgun, you're bound to hit something eventually. And probably a lot of things that were better off not getting hit.
Same story.

Are you trying to imply that so long as someone often reports large numbers of accounts as suspected cheaters, whether they are or not, with proof without, that we have to allow him to continue to abuse, insult, and harass anyone they desire?
Unfortunate, but that is their choice.

He reported a large number of people, not as multicheaters, but as a suspected OOC clan.

Some of them turned out to be multicheaters.

However, this does not justify any of his behaviour. Once he had reported them, rather than simply awaiting the Titans' decision—or even nudging me on IRC or through forum PMs from time to time, as many others are known to do—he filed three more Titan reports, coming close to saying, "You should lock all these people because I know they are guilty, never mind about your investigations."

In the end, we caught the multicheaters because of an improvement to our multicheater detection tools, not because Alexandros reported them.

Do you listen to yourself? Yes, obviously, if the Titans investigated every single player in the game, we'd find that some of them were multicheaters. But that's hardly a justification for just reporting everyone. If the Titans had the time and resources to investigate every single player in the game on a regular basis, do you think we'd need people to report suspected multicheaters for us to catch them?

... I'm not hear to start a argument with either of you note that, I don't have the time and effort to do so. I am hear to defend a good friend who played this game. It seems you all forget he was a player and state he was a "Cancer to the game" some state their glad to see him go. He deserved more than this...

What annoys me the most is that my drive for playing this game has taken enough hits and its not the ban on Alex that really hit it, but the way I have seen people comment and the truth of how the atmosphere has changed.

@Gustav Kuriga I think your true side really shows as a player in the comments you have left on hear nothing but negativity and name calling and yet, your post have not been deleted or edited... has his player been warned? Is this how we treat one another...playing as friends? Your words concerning Alex are better left to yourself and your clique/follower leave them out of this thread.

Seems he wasn't that far off concerning the multi's since he reported them then Titan's used their new tools to review such accusations.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Blue Star, how much confirmation bias could you possibly have? Here, let me quote what Anaris said, just in case you happened to somehow miss it.

There seems to be a perception—not just here, or just in BattleMaster, but in society in general—that people are either Nice, or they are Nasty. That if you met them, and chatted with them, and they seemed like a perfectly ordinary, nice person to deal with, that must mean that they would never really do anything mean to anyone. (And vice versa, if you bumped into them on the street and they cursed you out, they must be mean people who never do anything nice for anyone.)

This is not true. Alexandros was a nice guy to a lot of people. Hell, I liked him for a long time. His character Castamir was general under my character Alanna (the same Alanna who just died on Dwilight) on the first South-East Island, and at that time, I called him my friend. He was friendly, loyal, and yes, very passionate about Ikalak. Even for years later, I never had any real quarrel with him; we just weren't playing in the same places for a long time. I have absolutely no problem with the statements many people have made that he was a nice guy, a good player, a mentor, and a champion for Perdan.

However, even ten years ago, I also remember him being absolutely ruthless to those who he viewed as opposing him. This was true of our enemies as a realm, and even his political enemies within the realm. I don't specifically remember his ruthlessness causing him to be mean OOC back then, but I can't say for sure that he didn't, either—and SEI Ikalak was a realm he'd only been in for a few months, not several years.

If he had recognized this aggressively protective streak in himself as a bad thing back then, and made an effort to suppress it, I think that things would have been very different, and the East Continent might have been a less stressful place to play for many people in the intervening years. But clearly, he did not suppress it, and it grew to drive him to the actions that led to this pass.

That doesn't sound like someone who is only out to call people a cancer of the game...

As for my attitude, Blue Star, I call it like I see it. I'm blunt about my opinions, and I admit fully to being an arrogant jerkass. But at least I don't hold onto some self-delusion like everyone saying that Alex wasn't deserving of this seem to be.

[Indirik]

What annoys me the most is that my drive for playing this game has taken enough hits and its not the ban on Alex that really hit it, but the way I have seen people comment and the truth of how the atmosphere has changed.

You are correct, in that the atmosphere does seem to have changed. Maybe it's because we've lost a lot of players, and certain behaviors are harder to overlook in a smaller community. 1 in 1200 being a jerk is harder to spot than 1 in 350.

We are trying to keep the community overall as a friendly atmosphere where people feel welcomed and have fun. Some people's behavior just doesn't fit that profile. I feel bad every time an account gets locked. But that doesn't mean locking them is the wrong thing to do.

I understand that you consider Alexandros as a friend of yours. But it is an undeniable fact that his behavior, especially in the past year, has been inexcusably horrible. Go take a look at the case summary I posted, and actually look at the past case histories for this. Actually look at how many there have been, and what they are for. And then read some of the other stuff people have said that just never got officially reported.

Alex had his chances. A couple more than he should have. But how many chances can you give someone? How many times can you say "stop it, this behavior is not acceptable" before you just have to say "enough is enough, you're done"?We pretty much felt that 5 chances is more than enough.

[Indirik]

BTW can they return if they wish?

Anyone who leaves of their own accord can always come back, any time they want. Even people who's accounts get perma-locked for multi-accounting, or something else like that, can come back and make a new account, so long as they play by the rules. So far as I know only two people have ever been told "Go away, and don't ever come back".

[Eirikr]

Seems he wasn't that far off concerning the multi's since he reported them then Titan's used their new tools to review such accusations.

Blue Star, I typically like your input and I hate to jump on the bandwagon when everyone else seems to be... but this isn't even an argument, this is a question of numbers. Go play a few games of minesweeper - you'll notice that if you keep trying, eventually you'll have some success... and it'll be taken right back away with a tediously placed mine. Worse still, real life and multi-hunting do not include the indicator numbers that minesweeper does.

Or maybe even go roll a (non-loaded) die over and over, trying to predict what it will show before you throw it. You'll be right some of the time, yeah, but every time you're not, you're wrongly accusing an innocent person. The example's even better because any given day, you could have a better or worse record.

[m2rt]

Alex sent me his final words. Everyone should have a right to say their final words...:

I thought for long if I should write anything at all in here after happened what happened.
I will though comment on some points and then leave this game for now. I doubt I will return unless certain persons or policies change.

I will quote now some statements in this thread so far:

For some time now, Alex has clearly felt that it was his job to police the game for what he felt were people hurting the game.
-Anaris

And the problem is that he cares about them (answer to the first Perdan, then the game argument) in that order.
-Anaris

"we dislike cheaters and abusers, and players and GameMasters cooperate on removing them."
-Battlemaster description, m2rt

Broadly (and at the risk of stating the obvious), I would say that the way to get players to stop viewing other players as The Enemy is to get them to either work or play together at something.
-Anaris

It promotes an "us vs. them" mentality, I think. An idea that the other side will use any method that it takes to win.
-Indirik

Yes, he's been around nearly as long as I have. But when he becomes a cancer on the game, driving away more new players than he inspires old ones, it doesn't matter how long he's been here, just what he's doing now.
Alexandros was removed from the game because he has shown a long history of toxic behaviour that has driven a number of people we know about out of the game, and certainly many others we don't.
-Anaris

Do not be unnecessarily easily offended. Do not be unnecessarily offensive.
-Anaris

Following these statements (and insinuations in the last two quotes) I will publish now a private IRC conversation between Tim and me, which was shortly after the multis lock on the WI. As reminder: The WI multis were reported by me already 1 month before their lock and my case got rejected - that shortly before they were presented as investigation success and explicit attack on the WI.  But actually OI, Perdan, Fallangard and Sirion as well with the Ryu incident, were facing by then already 1 month before OOC flamewars and titan report abuse by these multi accounts.

So, after the multi lock and therefore the confirmation that my reports were valid although rejected, a public announcement and insults that I am paranoid etc. I thought an excuse, at least for the paranoia line, was in place. Although I have no idea who the Titans are, I went to Tim to ask him if that was a possible measure to restore my name. This was the outcome:

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Status #battlemasterX #east-islandX #AtamaraX #dwilightX #PerdanX #south-darkaX #Minas-LeonX #lurianovaX #luriansX #IkalakX #TaleriumX MessagesX Delvin_AnarisX
[21:38] <Atanamir> Delvin_Anaris: hello I would like a public apaology by the titans
[21:38] <Atanamir> is that possible?
[21:38] <Delvin_Anaris> Nope.
[21:38] <Delvin_Anaris> You're on thin ice already, mate.
[21:38] <Delvin_Anaris> Don't push it.
[21:38] <Atanamir> i was publically called paranoid and accused for reporting for IC reasons, all accounts who got now locked
[21:39] <Delvin_Anaris> Irrelevant to your thin ice.
[21:39] <Atanamir> I want this to be corrected
[21:39] <Delvin_Anaris> I don't know how much clearer I can make this to you.
[21:39] <Delvin_Anaris> No.
[21:39] <Delvin_Anaris> You are persona non grate.
[21:39] <Delvin_Anaris> *grata
[21:39] <Delvin_Anaris> You are very lucky you were locked for 3 days, and not permanently.
[21:39] <Atanamir> so, you, don#t see my point?
[21:39] <Delvin_Anaris> You will take what you get, whether you like it or not.
[21:40] <Delvin_Anaris> You happened to be right about some of the people who you thought were clanning.
[21:40] <Delvin_Anaris> That does not make your behaviour any more acceptable.
[21:40] <Atanamir> actually all of them
[21:40] <Atanamir> i am not taliing about the behaviour
[21:40] <Delvin_Anaris> I am.
[21:40] <Atanamir> i am calling about the line
[21:40] <Atanamir> paranoia
[21:40] <Atanamir> that was insulting
[21:40] <Delvin_Anaris> You are paranoid.
[21:41] <Atanamir> and as can be seen not correct
[21:41] <Delvin_Anaris> Every single time you get involved in a war, you start reporting people.
[21:41] <Atanamir> that is not fact and you know that
[21:41] <Delvin_Anaris> Just because this time there were people out to get you, it doesn't mean you're not paranoid.
[21:41] <Atanamir> lol they were out to get the game...
[21:41] <Atanamir> not me or you
[21:41] <Atanamir> we are actually on the same side
[21:41] * Delvin_Anaris laughs
[21:41] <Delvin_Anaris> It is totally true, and I do know it.
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> This discussion is over.
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> No, see, we're not.
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> Becuase you think it's *your* job to police the game.
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> It's not.
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> It is the Titans' job
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> and you need to leave it to the Titans.
[21:42] <Atanamir> no, but i think it is to help when i see something.
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> Not start banning people IC for bogus OOC reasons.
[21:42] <Atanamir> And I was right now.
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> The first report you made was fine.
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> Then you made 3 more reports, and bugged me on IRC, and banned people IC for OOC reasons, and none of that was fine.
[21:42] <Atanamir> i agree on the bans
[21:42] <Delvin_Anaris> This is over.
[21:43] <Delvin_Anaris> Done.
[21:43] <Atanamir> hey i agree on the bans, again.
[21:43] <Delvin_Anaris> Goodbye.
[21:43] <Atanamir> i want the paranoia thing clarified
[21:43] <Atanamir> it was insulting
[21:43] <Atanamir> and you are insulting to me.
[21:43] <Atanamir> and i gave you no reason for it.


As you see in this example, the hate and hostility I get here from this person, is far away from the BM principle that players and developers should work together. First of all, he doesn't even tell me I should solve this with Titans but attacks me straight with personal threats. Also, while I write calmly and seek cooperation, Tim explicitly defends and presents his own "us vs them" mentality. I tell him we are on the same side, as the BM front page says as well, he says I am not. I am explaining that I reported these people (which were from my own realm or allied realms) in order to protect the game, he insinuates that I do this out of my paranoia that they are out to get me and I do this in every war against enemy realms. Insinuations over insinuations. He insults me and kept insulting me, I have never read other Titan verdicts which were so much insinuating and insulting to the ruled player's character. And all I wanted was just an apology for the public defamation, some human understanding.
A copy of this was also sent Tom himself back then, who showed much more understanding for me and who encouraged me to keep helping our developers, while Tim calls this "bugging on IRC". Since then he also kept ignoring me on IRC when he was though glad to help everyone else when they had questions.
I may add that the "Hagley-bug-affair" was also a result of him marginalizing me from the game. Since the Bugtracker guest account is not working with guest/guest, he didn't bother to answer me on IRC although he was present. The next logical step was to ask fellow players for their help in my realm, none knew better, so I went to the "enemy" but this party said that Perdan abused bugs, so it would be ok to abuse it if it was a bug at all. So much for willingness of cooperation, but I at least didn't run immediately to the Titans to report them for bug abuse acusations so they get locked bolted or whatever.

Atanamir..well, for many years he played the game just fine. No problems. Then in the past year or two he somehow managed to change into someone who got permanently banned from the game. I doubt that would have happened had the community around him not also changed.
-Lilwolf

Well, just ask yourself since when Tim took over from Tom. Then you know more. The game has lost a lot from Tom's character and has become more Tim's.  But probably I am just a paranoid cancer to Tim's new game.
Good bye.

[Weylyn]

Funny that Alexandros didn't mention his rants against Tim here on the forums, they were quite public and pretty ugly. See, if I were Tim I could see myself responding to the individual who called me all kinds of things with some degree of hostility as well.

Actually, if I were Tim I would probably have banned him right then.

That was a few months ago, you'll find the public warning for that at the following link: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5507.0.html

His behavior in that thread wasn't too much better with the thinly veiled insults.

So no, Alex does not get to complain about getting a hostile reaction from Tim. I've known Tim and worked with him closely for over a decade, and he's not easy to piss off...

[Fleugs]

m2rt, you give a speaking platform to a fool and it poorly reflects upon yourself. If you cannot see that Atanamir is a manipulator and, frankly, a crybaby and a hypocrite for being so easily offended while he offends others by the load, I should review what I think about you. I know you're all about anarchy and whatnot but what you are trying to achieve here is counter-productive for you or for anyone else that vigorously defends Atanamir.

By the way, he was totally paranoia. When he came to me about the Dobromir/Deytheur matter... man, Atanamir has serious issues he needs to address.

[Zakilevo]

m2rt, I think you just revealed what kind of person Alex truly was. I think finally we are getting some insights to how paranoid he was. I really hope if we ever see him again, he is more eased up about things.

[m2rt]

m2rt, you give a speaking platform to a fool and it poorly reflects upon yourself. If you cannot see that Atanamir is a manipulator and, frankly, a crybaby and a hypocrite for being so easily offended while he offends others by the load, I should review what I think about you. I know you're all about anarchy and whatnot but what you are trying to achieve here is counter-productive for you or for anyone else that vigorously defends Atanamir.

By the way, he was totally paranoia. When he came to me about the Dobromir/Deytheur matter... man, Atanamir has serious issues he needs to address.

Hey! Even the most fearsome killer has a right for a last meal. It would be unfair to not give Alex the right for last words. Especially as here, the "other side" is bashing him really well and he has no possibility to defend himself.