Ryu, Atanamir, now Erik... good guy BM!

[Anaris]

Fortunately, that did not happen.

It's exactly what happened.

Rhiannon lost the lordship. Eldarion was elected. When Rhiannon returned, Eldarion was told that in Sirion, you give back regions to Lords who lose them due to capture. No, Erik didn't use the word "rightful" or a direct synonym, but the implication was clear: that despite being elected to the Lordship, Eldarion had to step down just so that it could be given back to the person who held it before.

[vonGenf]

It's exactly what happened.

Rhiannon lost the lordship. Eldarion was elected. When Rhiannon returned, Eldarion was told that in Sirion, you give back regions to Lords who lose them due to capture. No, Erik didn't use the word "rightful" or a direct synonym, but the implication was clear: that despite being elected to the Lordship, Eldarion had to step down just so that it could be given back to the person who held it before.

What you said is what happened. It is not "RP trumps mechanics".

There is a world of difference between "You're not really the Lord, please step down so that the bureaucracy can reflect correctly who should be the Lord" and "I order you to step down from your position and you will do it because I am stronger than you are".

Not that I'm arguing that the second is OK. It did violate the placeholder position, that's fine, but it's not the same as claiming the game-mechanic election is invalid because of RP. That would be a completely different violation of the rules, and it did not occur.

[Indirik]

IIRC, the wording was something like "you won the election, but the region belongs to [the previous lord]" This directly contradicts the game mechanics. The region belongs to the character that won the election.

[vonGenf]

IIRC, the wording was something like "you won the election, but the region belongs to [the previous lord]" This directly contradicts the game mechanics. The region belongs to the character that won the election.

Look, I'm not a Titan, I don't know if you are and I'm not supposed to ask. I can tell you that if I remember correctly this was not the wording, and I can check the realm channel and in-council messages because I'm in Sirion's council.

Now, it's possible that there were other private letters that had a different, more problematic wording. If that's the case, I can only reiterate that the Titan rulings and their reasonings should be posted publicly, and ideally prior to enforcement. From my point of view in Sirion, yes there was a violation of the placeholder rule, but there was no "RP trumps mechanics" issue. Eldarion was duly elected and that was recognized.

[Indirik]

If you can check, then go ahead. Then neither of us will have to wonder.

As for case summaries, they are working on one. I will post it for them when it is complete.

The idea of more public verdicts is something you will have to bring up with Tom and Anaris.

[vonGenf]

If you can check, then go ahead. Then neither of us will have to wonder.

I meant that I did check.

The only message I saw prior to the ruling is:

I requested Eldarion to leave Montijo so I can give the region to the former Countess.

Eldarion is the Count of Montijo, and the Duke wants him to resign. I have seen nothing that would imply that the election is illegitimate or invalid.

[Indirik]

Ah, sorry, I interpreted your post differently than you meant.

[Eduardo Almighty]

And people say there is no power struggle. The only way there is no a power struggle is because It was decided be other means than people telling Erik: "The region is mine, you crazy old Duke, I will not leave. !@#$ you and your orders" or the Judge saying: "Then try to win and put me out of position, you jerk!!!". I never saw any of this before wake up and realize I did something terrible wrong and was blocked.

Erik sent a request, when the Lord ignored, he considered it a power struggle. In his world, a vassal must obey him. When he ignored, Erik sent an order to him and a threat to the Council. I can be blamed by the "placeholder thing", but if you cannot see a power struggle here, I cannot see anything besides that... a power struggle: "You're on my way, leave or I will make you leave.". It's all about power. Wrong? Well, as it seems, yes. But about power.

It's hard to deal with these ambiguities and know how to proceed in relation to tournaments, placeholders, recruitment: "You can do that way, but NEVER that way". When you fall in a gray area, you immediately become a criminal and a yellow message makes you look like an outcast who suddenly does not deserve your position in the realm where he has served since ever.

[Anaris]

Erik sent a request, when the Lord ignored, he considered it a power struggle. In his world, a vassal must obey him. When he ignored, Erik sent an order to him and a threat to the Council. I can be blamed by the "placeholder thing", but if you cannot see a power struggle here, I cannot see anything besides that... a power struggle: "You're on my way, leave or I will make you leave.". It's all about power. Wrong? Well, as it seems, yes. But about power.

But if there had not been a law or tradition in Sirion of returning Lordship positions to Lords who were captured, would you even have wanted Eldarion out of Montijo?

Did you like Eldarion? Or did you have something against him, personally? Was the reason you wanted Rhiannon in the Lordship just because she held it before? Or was it because she was a political supporter, and Eldarion was a political opponent?

That is what makes it a power struggle, or not.

[Chenier]

But if there had not been a law or tradition in Sirion of returning Lordship positions to Lords who were captured, would you even have wanted Eldarion out of Montijo?

Did you like Eldarion? Or did you have something against him, personally? Was the reason you wanted Rhiannon in the Lordship just because she held it before? Or was it because she was a political supporter, and Eldarion was a political opponent?

That is what makes it a power struggle, or not.

A rule is bad if it's application revolves around one character's "feelings" towards another.

[Anaris]

A rule is bad if it's application revolves around one character's "feelings" towards another.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

But you're not the one making the rules. You may not like the rule, but it is not going to change, and you are obliged to follow it.

[Eduardo Almighty]

Echtelion is the traditionalist. Erik would do as it please him, as he did. He's a Duke, why he must think he must obey elections for Avamar despite what he wants for his Duchy? That's another power struggle, one with the system itself. That's why he prefer to appoint his nobles.

He never had anything personal against Eldarion until Rhiannon ask her region back. Why a womanizer would ignore the appeal of a Lady in detriment of an unknown man? When he refused the request and forced to Erik to send an order enforcing his position and his desire over his lands, there's the beginning of a power struggle. And yes, she is a political supporter. Everyone is his duchy are, since they are appointed, mainly for Tabost and Linbar, regions that belonged to Sirion and changed alliance to him. To keep these regions, he always select very well who will be appointed. If you care or not, he have a preference for Ladies, another reason to prefer her instead of him. That's to change a political supporter for someone he never received a word about. Another power struggle would be with Celine, since he failed to make Perdan obey the prisoner agreements to release Rhiannon in time to be reappointed.

Erik faced a major confrontation with Zakilevo when he was PM and tried to reform the Duchies. When he said he would do it Erik wanting it or not and that he would talk with his Ladies and Lords, Erik did the same, requesting his Lord to stay at his side and ignore the PM. Everything in Avamar is about power struggle.

While they never hated Eldarion, he was furious when he ignored his request. It must be silly, but Erik would always prefer a good Lady.

[Anaris]

He's a Duke, why he must think he must obey elections for his duchy despite what he wants for his Duchy?

Because a Lord who is elected is Lord. That is what Indirik was saying.

If Erik doesn't like the elections, he can't take it out on the Lords who get elected. He needs to take it up with the Ruler. He needs to get Lordships changed to appointed.

[Chenier]

I'm sorry you feel that way.

But you're not the one making the rules. You may not like the rule, but it is not going to change, and you are obliged to follow it.

In which case my sentiments echo De-Legro's: the rule should be re-written to properly reflect this reality. The rule saying nothing about the debatable aspect of "forcing" another to become a place holder.

[Eduardo Almighty]

Because a Lord who is elected is Lord.

Not HIS Lord. That why he was asked to leave. He never said the election is illegitimate, just that he prefer his Lady instead of an unknown Lord that he never chose to be there.