Seasons

[vonGenf]

Personally I would prefer to see realms concentrate on power struggles and wars rather then sit idle because they know they will have troubles over winter and spend much of the rest of the year trying to repair regions.

My point was that seasons help in that regard. A realm which currently has problems only in winter would have problems all year long if food production was equalized.

[De-Legro]

My point was that seasons help in that regard. A realm which currently has problems only in winter would have problems all year long if food production was equalized.

Yes, which would actually lead to them either needing to rectify it, or they would collapse and let other realms destroy them or remove land they can not feed, or sacrifice them to rogue. That is in my opinion preferable to a constant cycle of JUST scrapping by and doing nothing else.

[vonGenf]

Yes, which would actually lead to them either needing to rectify it, or they would collapse and let other realms destroy them or remove land they can not feed, or sacrifice them to rogue. That is in my opinion preferable to a constant cycle of JUST scrapping by and doing nothing else.

With seasons, if you're in trouble you're only in trouble for a short time, then you have three months where you can direct your attention somewhere else and attempt to rectify the problem before it reoccurs.

Without seasons, you can't do that. Your realm is collapsing right now, and it won't give you a breather. You don't have time to go declare a war to grab more rural regions and bring them up to shape so they produce enough food to feed your city - it will have starved before that.

[Chenier]

With seasons, if you're in trouble you're only in trouble for a short time, then you have three months where you can direct your attention somewhere else and attempt to rectify the problem before it reoccurs.

Without seasons, you can't do that. Your realm is collapsing right now, and it won't give you a breather. You don't have time to go declare a war to grab more rural regions and bring them up to shape so they produce enough food to feed your city - it will have starved before that.

But with seasons, a well-timed raid on your realm will starve it when it otherwise wouldn't have. Or a drought in the wrong regions at the wrong time. Seasonality also increases rot and bring a greater need for investing in granaries.

All in all, seasons make it more important for realms to care about food, and harder for them to plan ahead for it.

Plus, we now have rations anyways, so a realm with food deficits can adjust its cities' consumption until it fixes it.

[vonGenf]

But with seasons, a well-timed raid on your realm will starve it when it otherwise wouldn't have.

Well, that's a good thing. Well-timed raids should be more devastating than randomly-timed ones.

Or a drought in the wrong regions at the wrong time. Seasonality also increases rot and bring a greater need for investing in granaries.

Droughts are one thing I wouldn't be sorry to see disappear. They're completely unpredictable, so unplayable. They'll just kick you in the nuts when you need it the least for no good reason.

[Chamberlain]

Droughts are one thing I wouldn't be sorry to see disappear. They're completely unpredictable, so unplayable. They'll just kick you in the nuts when you need it the least for no good reason.

The world should be unpredictable and we should all be able to be humbled by nature in these times... droughts may be annoying but are a cool part of throwing spanners into gameplay

[De-Legro]

With seasons, if you're in trouble you're only in trouble for a short time, then you have three months where you can direct your attention somewhere else and attempt to rectify the problem before it reoccurs.

Without seasons, you can't do that. Your realm is collapsing right now, and it won't give you a breather. You don't have time to go declare a war to grab more rural regions and bring them up to shape so they produce enough food to feed your city - it will have starved before that.

If seasons were everywhere, I would believe this. They are not and this disaster does not routinely happen.

I will be frank. The food game is in theory a wonderful thing. The reality is most players do whatever they can to ignore it. We can talk about all the theoretical things it introduces, like raiding fertile lands to bring a realm to its knees, however how often do we see it? It is possible, but in most cases not practical. I am proposing the review of these systems because the hypothetical situations they add to the game are simply not being seen frequently, thus the complications they bring must be weighed against not what they COULD bring to the game, but what they actually bring to the game.

[vonGenf]

If seasons were everywhere, I would believe this. They are not and this disaster does not routinely happen.

I will be frank. The food game is in theory a wonderful thing. The reality is most players do whatever they can to ignore it. We can talk about all the theoretical things it introduces, like raiding fertile lands to bring a realm to its knees, however how often do we see it? It is possible, but in most cases not practical. I am proposing the review of these systems because the hypothetical situations they add to the game are simply not being seen frequently, thus the complications they bring must be weighed against not what they COULD bring to the game, but what they actually bring to the game.

I'm speaking as someone who plays a banker in a realm with seasons, and I think I would not like it as much in a realm without seasons. This does not mean it's impossible to manage food without seasons, only that it seems to me the interactions food brings are more interesting when seasons exist.

Also, I was considering the opportunity to remove the season mechanics but to keep the rest of the food game as it is. A complete removal of the food game would be an entirely different matter. While I personally enjoy it, I can see a rationale for removing it entirely.

[De-Legro]

I'm speaking as someone who plays a banker in a realm with seasons, and I think I would not like it as much in a realm without seasons. This does not mean it's impossible to manage food without seasons, only that it seems to me the interactions food brings are more interesting when seasons exist.

Also, I was considering the opportunity to remove the season mechanics but to keep the rest of the food game as it is. A complete removal of the food game would be an entirely different matter. While I personally enjoy it, I can see a rationale for removing it entirely.

For me also when I was a banker. But I also accept that is is damn hard to find bankers at all, because the food aspect of the game, not just seasons mind you, is not even CLOSE to universally appealing. Removing food entirely would upset certain balance aspects of the game, which would need much more careful consideration and changes to the code to work. Seasons already are not implemented game wide, thus their removal does not truly upset the game balance.

With the way rot works, the game does not particularly favour the idea of storing food in large amounts against future need. Seasons and weather though both work to force that concept upon us. Droughts in particular, given their random nature and their completely unpredictable duration encourage the idea of far more prudent food management, but we have not the tools to actually do that.

[Chenier]

For me also when I was a banker. But I also accept that is is damn hard to find bankers at all, because the food aspect of the game, not just seasons mind you, is not even CLOSE to universally appealing. Removing food entirely would upset certain balance aspects of the game, which would need much more careful consideration and changes to the code to work. Seasons already are not implemented game wide, thus their removal does not truly upset the game balance.

With the way rot works, the game does not particularly favour the idea of storing food in large amounts against future need. Seasons and weather though both work to force that concept upon us. Droughts in particular, given their random nature and their completely unpredictable duration encourage the idea of far more prudent food management, but we have not the tools to actually do that.

I'd favor bringing seasons to all continents, cutting the travel penalties, and cutting the food modifiers. Basically so they act as a calendar for everyone, and nothing more. The hassle the modifiers brings just aren't worth it.

[^ban^]

If seasons were everywhere, I would believe this. They are not and this disaster does not routinely happen.

Please keep in mind that region stats will need to be recalculated without seasons. They were determined explicitly with seasons in mind.

As an aside: I, for one, very much enjoy the food game, and seasons are what make it interesting to me.

[vonGenf]

Things like rivers freezing just aren't going to happen. It requires new code, and then you have to start considering, which rivers etc though I suppose that since travel times all increase we generally assume that all continents are located such that they have European style winters.

Here's a simpler proposal on travel times which would not require new coding: instead of making travel longer across the boards, make it so that travel times are longer in mountain and hills in winter only, longer in plains in autumn only (due to the mud), and longer on sea in the spring (let's say... icebergs. yeah, icebergs. Or sea monsters).

That way you have a cycle, but you have no season where every single way is blocked.

[Eldargard]

Keeping things on track, remember we don't have the resources to go and seriously revamp seasons. Things like rivers freezing just aren't going to happen. It requires new code, and then you have to start considering, which rivers etc though I suppose that since travel times all increase we generally assume that all continents are located such that they have European style winters.

This is kind of a tough concept. Compare the effect each season has in southern Italy/Greece to Scandinavian nations. Even places as close together as Austria/Switzerland vs Baden-Württemberg Germany makes a noticeable difference. If this is the way we need to look at it then climate descriptors like "Southern Mediterranean" should be removed/adjusted.

[Eldargard]

Here's a simpler proposal on travel times which would not require new coding: instead of making travel longer across the boards, make it so that travel times are longer in mountain and hills in winter only, longer in plains in autumn only (due to the mud), and longer on sea in the spring (let's say... icebergs. yeah, icebergs. Or sea monsters).

That way you have a cycle, but you have no season where every single way is blocked.

Another option might be to determine the effects based on climate type. Southern Mediterranean might have travel penalties in summer while North Shore has penalties in the winter.

The more I think about this the more I think that travel times should simply be unaffected by seasons until there is time to do it right - whatever right may end up being.