Author Topic: East Continent vs. Far East  (Read 11874 times)

Indirik

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Re: East Continent vs. Far East
« Reply #30: April 27, 2015, 04:34:56 PM »
So you want people to stop considering the political ramifications of their actions, and just meekly accept the inevitable gang bang that we all know will follow.
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Anaris

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Re: East Continent vs. Far East
« Reply #31: April 27, 2015, 04:41:24 PM »
So you want people to stop considering the political ramifications of their actions, and just meekly accept the inevitable gang bang that we all know will follow.

No, I want people who willfully ignore political ramifications to not complain about the inevitable consequences of their own actions.

If you think ending up on the losing end of a continent-wide war is an unacceptable outcome, then do your due diligence so you won't end up there.

If you don't pay any attention to what the plausible and likely negative outcomes of your actions as a ruler are going to be, then don't complain when one of those likely negative outcomes occurs.

What I want is for people to decide—preferably as a realm, not just a unilateral ruler decision—that they want war, because it will be fun, and if that war results in them losing, or even being destroyed...well, that can be fun too (or is at least an acceptable risk). So they don't spend 3-18 months scheming and plotting to get The Perfect War going or just leap into the first thing that comes along, then stink up the forums and in-game OOC channels with whining and moaning that their lack of planning led to something that wasn't totally ideal for them.
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Audaci

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Re: East Continent vs. Far East
« Reply #32: April 27, 2015, 06:36:12 PM »
I think someone needs to get this conversation back on track!

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Re: East Continent vs. Far East
« Reply #33: April 27, 2015, 06:46:07 PM »
because it will be fun, and if that war results in them losing, or even being destroyed...well, that can be fun too (or is at least an acceptable risk).

I am pretty sure getting destroyed is not fun. I haven't heard anyone say they enjoyed getting destroyed. That is probably where the problem lies. People don't want to lose and get their realm destroyed because their realm is their investment. They invested time and energy and suddenly you lose everything you worked on for years.

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Re: East Continent vs. Far East
« Reply #34: April 27, 2015, 06:57:43 PM »
I am pretty sure getting destroyed is not fun. I haven't heard anyone say they enjoyed getting destroyed. That is probably where the problem lies. People don't want to lose and get their realm destroyed because their realm is their investment. They invested time and energy and suddenly you lose everything you worked on for years.

Time and energy only serve to create fun. For yourself and other players. While longterm plans are nice and give a lot of fulfillment when they come to completion, more often they do not. Perhaps we should think short-term more? Like, you know, I believe we are doing.

As to the actual point of this topic: I'm also in Arcaea, though as an (inactive) priestess I might be biased. It seems the war isn't highly entertaining for most of the island, though. I do believe however that those who actually join the Arcaean army are getting some fun. But as mentioned before, Arcaea is the biggest realm on the island, so evidently it will see most of the big battles.
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Indirik

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Re: East Continent vs. Far East
« Reply #35: April 27, 2015, 11:28:04 PM »
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Yet when Perdan seeks a war in such a manner as to avoid the fear they have of a giant pile in, they are baseless because oddly enough the nobles of the Realm can't see the rulers channel and can't indulge in the knowledge and fun that rulers get pushing diplomacy around.
If Perdan didn't know what was going on, they have no one to blame but themselves. I, and probably others, invested considerable effort into making sure that Perdan's ruler was kept up to speed on what was happening. If they didn't share it with their realm, well, not much I can do about that. It's important for the rulers to keep their realms up to date. And it's important for the players to demand that their rulers do this. There's nothing more boring as a player than to sit around in a realm where you're not fighting any wars, your ruler never talks, and you keep getting all those island-wide notifications of foreign events.

In addition, the Perdan/Vix war was able to happen the way it did not just because Fleugs stepped in and said "hey, let's have a war". Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that Fleugs was willing to step in and take a risk. That's great. But Fleugs could have gotten elected and then sat on the throne picking his nose for a week and damn near the same war would have happened, because everyone involved had already planned to have that war. The only difference being that it would probably have also involved Eponllyn and Caligus going after each other, too. The way it turned out, Perdan/Vix will have their private war not because Vix/Perdan agreed to have one, but because Eponllyn has a long history of *not* interfering in foreign wars, and Caligus and Sirion both stated months ago that they would not interfere if the two went to war. (Although, who knows what Perleone will do. But they're small enough that if they try to interfere with the war, Perdan and Vix could quickly beat them into submission.)

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There was a time where realms did not adhere to politics as we do now.
When was that, 2003?

Politics *always* happened. Eight years ago it was a lot harder for a single misstep to have fatal consequences. There were more realms, and more players per realm. That made realms a lot more resilient and it was much harder to wipe out another realm. It was also less likely that someone on the opposite side of the map would march over and beat on you. Back in 2007, when I was leading the Kingdom of Alluran on BT (way down in Eno, which no longer exists), the idea of us marching all the way north to fight Melhed/Thalmarkin would have been simply ridiculous. Today you *have* to consider all those distant realms, because they can and will march over to you and express their displeasure at swordpoint. On smaller islands like FEI and EC the effects are even greater.

As realms and power structures get more fragile, and the size differential between large and small realms increases, it's way too easy for someone to get wiped out. Trying to start a local border dispute could easily end up killing your realm when that bordering neighbor calls in a friend, and their combined demands for peace end up being that you give them 2/3rds of your realm as the punishment for your unprovoked aggression.

Most of the politics involved in setting up a war isn't "How can I get a war going with Keplerstan?" It's "How can I get a war going with Keplerstan, but in a way that keeps everyone else from joining in?" That doesn't mean setting up the perfect war, or a no-risk war. Just a war where you don't get curbstomped for being the aggressor.

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Secondly it is a game that doesn't really generate much fun for those not in the Ruler channel.
Ha! As if the ruler's channel was fun. It's one of the most frustrating, irritating, overrated experiences imaginable. Of all facets of the game, that's the one thing that will make me cringe and rethink logging in to play.

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The way out of the political quagmire is not to cater to it, not to spend months seeking large wars involving multiple realms and alliances. It is to short circuit matters, to encourage politics back to being more local, to encouraging realms to have enemies upon their borders with whom to fight so they don't require the actions of another realm before they can conceivably march to war.
That's a nice sentiment, but it's completely divorced from the reality of the game. You can try to set up any kind of little, local war you want. But once you start the war, you don't get to decide how far it spreads, or who you get to fight. If the guy on the other side decides to call in his friends, what are you going to do about it? Or if he doesn't call, but they come anyway?
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Indirik

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Re: East Continent vs. Far East
« Reply #36: April 27, 2015, 11:28:32 PM »
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No, I want people who willfully ignore political ramifications to not complain about the inevitable consequences of their own actions.

If you think ending up on the losing end of a continent-wide war is an unacceptable outcome, then do your due diligence so you won't end up there.

If you don't pay any attention to what the plausible and likely negative outcomes of your actions as a ruler are going to be, then don't complain when one of those likely negative outcomes occurs.
Can't you see the problem with what you're saying here? You're telling people that the game is too slow and there's not enough war, because people spend too much time planning and scoping out the overall political landscape in order to set up "The Perfect War" and not enough time actually starting that war. (Based on a post earlier in the thread...) But then when !@#$ happens because someone may not have done all that set up, well too bad for them, it's their own fault for not doing all that set up, and they need to just sit down and shut up.

You can't tell people to be more spontaneous, stop planning so much, stop worrying about the consequences, etc., and then blame them for not doing all that stuff. It's a horrible dichotomy that is guaranteed to cause lots of problems.

Yes, the game needs to have more local wars. More realms need to go after their own neighbors. That's way more fun than marching for six days, having two battles, marching seven days to get home, refitting for two days, waiting two more days for the wounded to catch up, then doing it all over again. Been there, done that.

Local wars are definitely the way to go. (Which is why I have always opposed any changes to increase the range at which a realm can wage war.) And when people do that, and try to have some local wars, people not directly involved need to actually sit back and let them do it.

This whole "local war" thing is about more than just someone picking a fight with their neighbor and not bringing 6 allies with them. The rest of the island has to also agree to not try to shoehorn their way into that war. Sure, you may be able to come up with some RP'd justification for why you *should* be involved. But why not spend at least as much time trying to find a reason why *not* to be involved?
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De-Legro

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Re: East Continent vs. Far East
« Reply #37: April 27, 2015, 11:57:10 PM »
If Perdan didn't know what was going on, they have no one to blame but themselves. I, and probably others, invested considerable effort into making sure that Perdan's ruler was kept up to speed on what was happening. If they didn't share it with their realm, well, not much I can do about that. It's important for the rulers to keep their realms up to date. And it's important for the players to demand that their rulers do this. There's nothing more boring as a player than to sit around in a realm where you're not fighting any wars, your ruler never talks, and you keep getting all those island-wide notifications of foreign events.

In addition, the Perdan/Vix war was able to happen the way it did not just because Fleugs stepped in and said "hey, let's have a war". Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that Fleugs was willing to step in and take a risk. That's great. But Fleugs could have gotten elected and then sat on the throne picking his nose for a week and damn near the same war would have happened, because everyone involved had already planned to have that war. The only difference being that it would probably have also involved Eponllyn and Caligus going after each other, too. The way it turned out, Perdan/Vix will have their private war not because Vix/Perdan agreed to have one, but because Eponllyn has a long history of *not* interfering in foreign wars, and Caligus and Sirion both stated months ago that they would not interfere if the two went to war. (Although, who knows what Perleone will do. But they're small enough that if they try to interfere with the war, Perdan and Vix could quickly beat them into submission.)
When was that, 2003?

Politics *always* happened. Eight years ago it was a lot harder for a single misstep to have fatal consequences. There were more realms, and more players per realm. That made realms a lot more resilient and it was much harder to wipe out another realm. It was also less likely that someone on the opposite side of the map would march over and beat on you. Back in 2007, when I was leading the Kingdom of Alluran on BT (way down in Eno, which no longer exists), the idea of us marching all the way north to fight Melhed/Thalmarkin would have been simply ridiculous. Today you *have* to consider all those distant realms, because they can and will march over to you and express their displeasure at swordpoint. On smaller islands like FEI and EC the effects are even greater.

As realms and power structures get more fragile, and the size differential between large and small realms increases, it's way too easy for someone to get wiped out. Trying to start a local border dispute could easily end up killing your realm when that bordering neighbor calls in a friend, and their combined demands for peace end up being that you give them 2/3rds of your realm as the punishment for your unprovoked aggression.

Most of the politics involved in setting up a war isn't "How can I get a war going with Keplerstan?" It's "How can I get a war going with Keplerstan, but in a way that keeps everyone else from joining in?" That doesn't mean setting up the perfect war, or a no-risk war. Just a war where you don't get curbstomped for being the aggressor.
Ha! As if the ruler's channel was fun. It's one of the most frustrating, irritating, overrated experiences imaginable. Of all facets of the game, that's the one thing that will make me cringe and rethink logging in to play.
That's a nice sentiment, but it's completely divorced from the reality of the game. You can try to set up any kind of little, local war you want. But once you start the war, you don't get to decide how far it spreads, or who you get to fight. If the guy on the other side decides to call in his friends, what are you going to do about it? Or if he doesn't call, but they come anyway?

The subset of rulers is quite small, many of them constantly complain about the political system we are currently left with. If such a small and experienced group of players can't collectively sort out jumping on each others wars, there is little the greater player base is going to be able to do to resolve this. The statistics don't lie, either BM gets a paradigm shift, or it continues to die. We can "correct" the density issue all we want, that is not magically going to correct the entrenched mindset of those that rule and guide the realms, and without that great density isn't going to mean all that much in the long run.
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Indirik

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Re: East Continent vs. Far East
« Reply #38: April 28, 2015, 03:10:41 AM »
The subset of rulers is quite small, many of them constantly complain about the political system we are currently left with. If such a small and experienced group of players can't collectively sort out jumping on each others wars, there is little the greater player base is going to be able to do to resolve this.
I fully agree. Which is why I, leading Eponllyn, have made it a practice to not interfere in other people's wars. We've not had a lot of wars lately, but the players in Eponllyn seem willing to wait it out for a little while, until the right war can come along.

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The statistics don't lie, either BM gets a paradigm shift, or it continues to die. We can "correct" the density issue all we want, that is not magically going to correct the entrenched mindset of those that rule and guide the realms, and without that great density isn't going to mean all that much in the long run.
Sure. But telling people to ignore politics and just start wars, isn't helping anything. It's not the people starting the wars that are the problem. It's the people that can't help themselves from tagging along. The people that have no other rationale for war than "We support our allies!" The people that won't even talk to you unless they're backed by a coalition of friends that negotiate as an inseparable team.

The way to get people to start wars is for other players to *choose* to not turn it into a one-sided gank-fest. I know for a fact that there are realms who would love to be fighting wars on AT, but can't do it because they'll get smacked down hard and fast. Kudos to Minas Leon and Talerium for having the balls to actually fight a war without trying to bring in the entire island on their sides.
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Constantine

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Re: East Continent vs. Far East
« Reply #39: April 28, 2015, 12:36:44 PM »
Constantine: The point of all of this is that you should join Perdan!
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