the conflict looming

[Chenier]

Indeed, there are too many variables beyond our control and level of knowledge that influence the results that results are not a valuable indicator of the moral worth of any given act.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

As an aside, we were supposed to have all three elder priests, of Hemaism, Daishi, and Qyrvagism, all gather in triplets at Firbalt, Creasur, and Grehk. Then they would each within the same day, sacrifice themselves to the Light, such that a total of 9 elder priests, 3 from each religion, would die, but in return there would be this "burst of light" that would have dissipated the blight and prevented the invaders from gaining any more reinforcements. Combined with the inherent fade by that point, it would mean that we would have the military means to take down the invaders then.

However, a lot of deception meant that people never really trusted the Light and so its true purpose was never realized. lol.

(Also, there is more than one part of what I have written that's actually true.)

[Chenier]

As an aside, we were supposed to have all three elder priests, of Hemaism, Daishi, and Qyrvagism, all gather in triplets at Firbalt, Creasur, and Grehk. Then they would each within the same day, sacrifice themselves to the Light, such that a total of 9 elder priests, 3 from each religion, would die, but in return there would be this "burst of light" that would have dissipated the blight and prevented the invaders from gaining any more reinforcements. Combined with the inherent fade by that point, it would mean that we would have the military means to take down the invaders then.

However, a lot of deception meant that people never really trusted the Light and so its true purpose was never realized. lol.

(Also, there is more than one part of what I have written that's actually true.)

OOC, I believe it, but there is not a chance in hell that anyone could have convinced me characters of this.

Declaring Sint "pure", after their repeated worshipping daimons, while snubbing Enweil and her allies for their strategic alliance with the daimons in order to have a fighting chance against the monsters made them lose absolutely all credibility. While it could have been accepted that Qyrvaggism be "pure", reluctantly, the same can't be said for Daishi and especially not for Hemaism. Incidentally too, the three realms that were chosen to receive the Light were all allied against Enweil in the last age.

And now that I think of it, even declaring Qyrvaggism "pure" is a bunch of bollocks. Qyrvagg priests were actively siding with the monsters, helping them, and attempting to convert everyone else in Rio to ally with them against Enweil.

Had the Servants at least used different terminology... but "pure"? And from the exchanges, the Servants of the Light had a clear penchant for the anti-Enweil bloc. They never even bothered coming to discuss with Enweil and her allies. And if Enweil had so much to repent for, then they should have snubbed every realm other than Thalmarkin, which interestingly enough they ignored.

While I can understand the strategical value of these three places, purity was obviously a facade, so if the Light was misleading us on such a fundamental thing, how were our characters to believe them on anything else?

[songqu88@gmail.com]

I think what happened with the Iato duke that you play is that he was too involved with Enweil. That is not wrong but I get the feeling that the Light was looking at a more impersonal view of the conflict. They're not exactly the most benevolent in terms of caring for individual human concerns, which is normal since they're not human. They are the Light. Their purpose was...pretty much to defeat the Darkness that they more or less saw as represented in that particular conflict by the three NPC invaders.

So keeping that in mind, they most likely didn't care one bit about prior history, or human relations, only that at the moment, and for that particular conflict, they showed their willingness and determination to fight against the Darkness.

In the case of Hetland, I believe it had to do with them thickheadedly bashing against the daimons and dissolving all ties to the monsters once they got the Light on their side. For Riombara, I have no idea. For Sint, I believe that there was at least one priest who got adamant and managed to convince the youngest and most naive among the Light, Virgil, that they would in fact stand up against the daimons. Which they did. Kinda.

As for Thalmarkin, well, recall that by that time it had more or less been overrun by Undead. Given the Undead GM's parting gloating, it is not too absurd to believe that by then Thalmarkin had already been "marked" to become a future cursed land where the undead would spawn.

Anyway, from the Enweil thing, it was mostly an issue with the Blood Cult I believe. Marta pretty much called the Chenier who spoke to her evil because of the whole unwilling sacrifice thing.

In the end, I think that, like many other things, humans can sometimes be very strange creatures in times of great calamity.

[Anaris]

OOC, I believe it

That's too bad, because he made it up.

[Vellos]

And now that I think of it, even declaring Qyrvaggism "pure" is a bunch of bollocks. Qyrvagg priests were actively siding with the monsters, helping them, and attempting to convert everyone else in Rio to ally with them against Enweil.

As an elder in Qyrvaggism, I can state with OOC categorical certainty that this is false. Well, I dunno, Sendan might have been wandering around up north somewhere, but none of the ones in Rio were doing this. Qyrvaggism did suggest that the monsters were a lesser evil than the daimons... and meanwhile, as soon as the Light appeared, we rejected the daimons.

For Riombara, I have no idea.

Riombara never affiliated with Invaders. The Meridian Republic did, and, prior to its secession, many of the nobles of that realm advocated for collaboration and tried to get Rio to collaborate. Riombara did not. That's why MR seceded. Because Rio refused to collaborate with the monsters. Certain dissident elements of the Meridian Republic coughmecough threw their realm under the bus as soon as the Light appeared, and begged the Light to go to Riombara and Qyrvaggism. Hireshmont valued Qyrvaggism more than the Meridian Republic or revenge against Riombara. Qyrvaggism was one of the only viable religions left at that time with any kind of theology or RP basis (Eretzism is laughable), and in previous Invasions it had been stalwartly pro-human. Rio and Qyrvaggism made a case that any appearance of collaboration with monsters was purely incidental to the Meridian Republic.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

That's too bad, because he made it up.

Aw, and you had to give it away. Actually, by this time, with Beyond on seemingly indefinite hiatus, does it make a difference anymore?

I think it doesn't. Who gives a damn what is true if it makes no significant difference in current BT environment, and if the majority of humans remaining believe in it? That goes for the real world too. So much of what is popularly believed to be the case is so off-base and has been romanticized over time that it's a wonder we have the gall to call it "history" and place some rather ridiculous literature in the non-fiction section. And yet we accept it, whether it is because it's the best we have, or because it feels right to us, or whatever other strange reason we have for accepting it.

Yeah, sure, "journalism". The majority of people do try to make efforts to be accurate and would like the truth. But tell me, how many people actually pay attention to the precise details about how something like life in the royal courts were, or how battles were really fought, and the actual lives of individuals?

But that is all an argument for some stupid blog or a college lecture. I stand by the thought that, given the lack and continued insistence of those who organized 4th Inv to say anything, it is open season to we the normal players to fill that gap with whatever makes us feel more comfortable.

[Lorgan]

I very much resent the unitary nature of your claim. It was my character, Hireshmont, who first contacted the Light concerning Qyrvaggism, informed them of our united position against the Invaders, and directed to the temple in Grehk. And Hireshmont was also one of the first to be consumed at the temple of light in Grehk. Whatever you may have thought of him, his last days in MR were spent guaranteeing the survival of Riombara and the defeat of the Invaders as he directed every effort towards getting the Light established in Grehk. Now, naturally, many other players, especially in Qyrvaggism, contributed quite meaningfully. But don't hog all the credit.

I didn't mean to hog all the credit. Heck, I only became a priest so that I could use the Power of the Light. Mithridates has always been a warrior and that was THE way to destroy the monsters, and in accordance with the teachings of Qyrvaggism. I didn't convince the Light, I didn't even destroy the biggest part of those monster armies, Sendan did. Before he destroyed the temple and went preeetty crazy. All I'm saying is that I, as a Riombaran and elder priest of Qyrvaggism, drawing on what was mostly Riombaran blood (even though nobles and advies from in the neighbourhood flocked to the temple to sacrifice themselves or give blood as well) did destroy a ton of monsters that then didn't go north to fight enweil. And that's not exactly sitting out an invasion...

[Vellos]

I didn't convince the Light, I didn't even destroy the biggest part of those monster armies, Sendan did. Before he destroyed the temple and went preeetty crazy.

Yeah, what did happen with Sendan? Anybody wanna fill me in? Because now he's a completely silent head of Qyrvaggism.

[Chenier]

That's too bad, because he made it up.

I meant I believe the Light was meant to defeat the invaders. Not necessarily that particular exotic scenario.

As an elder in Qyrvaggism, I can state with OOC categorical certainty that this is false. Well, I dunno, Sendan might have been wandering around up north somewhere, but none of the ones in Rio were doing this. Qyrvaggism did suggest that the monsters were a lesser evil than the daimons... and meanwhile, as soon as the Light appeared, we rejected the daimons.

Riombara never affiliated with Invaders. The Meridian Republic did, and, prior to its secession, many of the nobles of that realm advocated for collaboration and tried to get Rio to collaborate. Riombara did not. That's why MR seceded. Because Rio refused to collaborate with the monsters. Certain dissident elements of the Meridian Republic coughmecough threw their realm under the bus as soon as the Light appeared, and begged the Light to go to Riombara and Qyrvaggism. Hireshmont valued Qyrvaggism more than the Meridian Republic or revenge against Riombara. Qyrvaggism was one of the only viable religions left at that time with any kind of theology or RP basis (Eretzism is laughable), and in previous Invasions it had been stalwartly pro-human. Rio and Qyrvaggism made a case that any appearance of collaboration with monsters was purely incidental to the Meridian Republic.

And the thing about using the light is that you were doing so comfortably from your untouchable city while the rest of your regions were basically being babysitted by MR to be given back once the invasion ended. Had the light set up in Enweilieos instead, Riombara would have had next to no involvement for the great majority of the invasion, and Enweil would have suffered a lot less damage.

Many of these MR leaders were very important Rio nobles. Many of these MR nobles then came back to Riombara. Some keeping their positions. It's therefore hard to absolve Riombara of what MR did, considering it came from it and came back to it.

Sendan closed the temple of the Light, if I remember correctly. I don't see how that's not pro-monster. Mordred Lefanis was also a priest of Qyrvaggism at least for some time, maybe even an elder, and I got a !@#$load of his messages to the monsters. He was trying since day 1 to get Rio to ally the monsters to destroy Enweil and Avalon.

Rejecting the daimons was also pretty damn easy considering they were, you know, at the complete opposite corner of the map. They may as well have said that they condemn Outer Tilog, while they were at it.

[Tan dSerrai]

IC/Serrai:
Sendan did destroy the Temple of Light due to an argument about interior policy that got out of hand but had (please correct me) little to do with the invasion. It was done to hurt Riombara, not to change Riombaras course towards the monsters. He was promptly declared traitor and banned under pain of death. The temple was rebuilt and reconsecrated and continued to kill a whole load of monsters.

Note that I only state this for those who might find it of interest (view at that time I assume) and not to change Chenier's opinion that Riombara was 'sitting out the invasion', that it was 'pro Monster', that Enweil 'fought more, harder, more honourably and...than Riombara.'

OOC: player
What I (as player) would be seriously interested in is if Chenier is to be considered as being the enweilian character (and thus IC) or as the player. Or to be more concrete, may I (as player) assume that what Chenier states is IC or do you as player consider what Chenier states here on the forum as your OOC opinion? Note that I (as player) love the IC ability for propaganda of the enweilian character - this makes this awesome game so much richer!

[Geronus]

Yes, there was a political dispute between Delvin and Falcore's other character Gardin. Sendan got involved and closed the Temple to try to get back at Delvin for basically winning a political fight and forcing Gardin to resign as High Chancellor of Riombara.

[Iltaran]

Threatening tens of thousands with being devoured by monsters in response to losing a political battle. That, ladies and gentlemen, is style.

[Chenier]

IC/Serrai:
Sendan did destroy the Temple of Light due to an argument about interior policy that got out of hand but had (please correct me) little to do with the invasion. It was done to hurt Riombara, not to change Riombaras course towards the monsters. He was promptly declared traitor and banned under pain of death. The temple was rebuilt and reconsecrated and continued to kill a whole load of monsters.

Note that I only state this for those who might find it of interest (view at that time I assume) and not to change Chenier's opinion that Riombara was 'sitting out the invasion', that it was 'pro Monster', that Enweil 'fought more, harder, more honourably and...than Riombara.'

OOC: player
What I (as player) would be seriously interested in is if Chenier is to be considered as being the enweilian character (and thus IC) or as the player. Or to be more concrete, may I (as player) assume that what Chenier states is IC or do you as player consider what Chenier states here on the forum as your OOC opinion? Note that I (as player) love the IC ability for propaganda of the enweilian character - this makes this awesome game so much richer!

Most know knowledge is shared by my characters, the opinion is similar, minus all the Enweil supremacist sentiments.

To me, Rio's participation is comparable to the USA's during world war 2. Tipping the tides of battle and getting disproportionate glory for it, because of the circumstances around it's involvement, its ties to the other side, the relative safety from which it performed its operations, and the great economic advantage they gained for the combination of all of these things.

For let's remember that when the invasion started, Riombara and DoA *refused* to end their war status with Enweil (wars which they were the ones to declare). Fighting a united front wasn't what they had in mind. Indeed, they had even attacked the retreating Enweilian army *after* we all learned of the invasion. Uniting against the invaders wasn't exactly a priority of theirs, and they showed that they would have been quite happy to sit by and watch had the monsters pressed northwards instead of south-east.

[Geronus]

Most know knowledge is shared by my characters, the opinion is similar, minus all the Enweil supremacist sentiments.

To me, Rio's participation is comparable to the USA's during world war 2. Tipping the tides of battle and getting disproportionate glory for it, because of the circumstances around it's involvement, its ties to the other side, the relative safety from which it performed its operations, and the great economic advantage they gained for the combination of all of these things.

For let's remember that when the invasion started, Riombara and DoA *refused* to end their war status with Enweil (wars which they were the ones to declare). Fighting a united front wasn't what they had in mind. Indeed, they had even attacked the retreating Enweilian army *after* we all learned of the invasion. Uniting against the invaders wasn't exactly a priority of theirs, and they showed that they would have been quite happy to sit by and watch had the monsters pressed northwards instead of south-east.

You know, we spent at least as much time fighting monsters as you did - Enweil fought them in the middle, but we took the beginning and the end. Remember that after MR left they took with them most of our nobles and 80% of our remaining income. I think you vastly overestimate Riombara's ability to have an impact after that point. After MR left, every region remaining to us (all four of them) except for Grehk was completely devastated, so we were pretty much running off the income of that one city and trying to feed it with depopulated rurals.

So yeah, we took a break. At that point the monsters had already moved on to attacking Enweil, and were just keeping one monster commander around to step on us every time we tried to leave Grehk. It was literally pointless to keep trying to fight under those conditions, so we accepted the cease fire. Then we rebuilt and picked off regions that went rebelled from monster rule, and eventually we went back to war once a little of our strength was back. Expecting us to have been able to attack MR at any point during the invasion demonstrates your ignorance of the conditions we faced. We were noticably weaker, never mind the fact that they were allied with the monsters. MR probably could have destroyed us without any help from them at all had we pushed them into doing so.

When it comes to Riombara, you lack objectivity.