Author Topic: the conflict looming  (Read 59551 times)

fodder

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Re: the conflict looming
« Reply #120: July 28, 2011, 08:42:11 AM »
hmm? the monsters went down south partly as a result of enweil nudging them there, no?

it's not so much pro-monster as anti-daimon. and we all know about daimon and enweil. that's not talking about the last invasion, but the time in between invasions.
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Re: the conflict looming
« Reply #121: July 28, 2011, 01:08:47 PM »
hmm? the monsters went down south partly as a result of enweil nudging them there, no?

it's not so much pro-monster as anti-daimon. and we all know about daimon and enweil. that's not talking about the last invasion, but the time in between invasions.

Yes, as in "You know, not only Enweil has rurals", because if they weren't nudged to the SE, the SE never would have fought them, as their governments were paralyzed by the anti-enweil and pro-monster factions. The goal was to force them to fight alongside Enweil. Their arrogance was too great for even that.
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Telrunya

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Re: the conflict looming
« Reply #122: July 28, 2011, 01:14:26 PM »
Yes, because nothing says 'You can trust us to work together' to the anti-Enweil factions more then sending hordes of Monsters to their lands ;) And then you went and had a party with the Daimons anyway!

fodder

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Re: the conflict looming
« Reply #123: July 28, 2011, 03:14:29 PM »
as i said. it's more like anti-daimon rather than pro-monster. there might well be some people who were pro-monster, but it doesn't make anyone who fights daimons pro-monster.

given a choice of fighting daimons and monsters, i'll fight daimons, thanks.

of course.. daimons = enweil. so no brainer.
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Re: the conflict looming
« Reply #124: July 28, 2011, 05:54:25 PM »
Yes, as it turned out there were people in Riombara dealing with the monsters behind our backs. That doesn't mean it was official policy. Far from it. The point is, you accuse with one hand while excusing your own largely equivalent actions with the other. I'm sure Lefanis did try to get the monsters to go after Enweil. Well, as we've seen and you've admitted you had tried to get the monsters to go after us even before that. How can you really complain about us not trusting you... ?

Riombara stayed pure if you ask me. That's why there was a secession in the first place. All the hard-line anti-invader people stayed in Riombara while the collaborators went with the Meridian Republic. It's not like there was a tacit understanding about it either. Evander and Delvin were both enraged by what happened. If Telrunya hadn't out of the blue offered to return his duchy to Riombara and step down, bringing D'Este with him, it's very likely that we would have allied with Enweil to go after the Meridian Republic after the invasion. Most of the people who were behind the secession did not return to Riombara. Telrunya and D'Este were given amnesty because of their voluntary actions in returning their duchies, plus Telrunya stepped down. Celyn Haethorne was already gone. Hylor Hobbs was only permitted to return because he was deleting his character and wanted to do an RP about it. Vellos had already sacrificed himself at the Temple of Light. Lefanis was not permitted to return under any circumstances. Athins was gone. The only one I can think of whom we allowed to return was Nigel de la Fere, and Evander pushed to ban him. Thought about trying to get Yuri Ishimu banned too for taking Avengmil over to MR shortly after the original secession.

fodder

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Re: the conflict looming
« Reply #125: July 28, 2011, 07:06:31 PM »
well.. as i said, it's not pro-monster but anti-daimon. i did try to see if it wasn't possible for ardmore to join mr and possibly avoid getting looted to crap (and allow its food to head to grehk) wishful thinking probably.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 07:08:56 PM by fodder »
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Re: the conflict looming
« Reply #126: July 29, 2011, 12:24:33 AM »
Yes, as it turned out there were people in Riombara dealing with the monsters behind our backs. That doesn't mean it was official policy. Far from it. The point is, you accuse with one hand while excusing your own largely equivalent actions with the other. I'm sure Lefanis did try to get the monsters to go after Enweil. Well, as we've seen and you've admitted you had tried to get the monsters to go after us even before that. How can you really complain about us not trusting you... ?

Riombara stayed pure if you ask me. That's why there was a secession in the first place. All the hard-line anti-invader people stayed in Riombara while the collaborators went with the Meridian Republic. It's not like there was a tacit understanding about it either. Evander and Delvin were both enraged by what happened. If Telrunya hadn't out of the blue offered to return his duchy to Riombara and step down, bringing D'Este with him, it's very likely that we would have allied with Enweil to go after the Meridian Republic after the invasion. Most of the people who were behind the secession did not return to Riombara. Telrunya and D'Este were given amnesty because of their voluntary actions in returning their duchies, plus Telrunya stepped down. Celyn Haethorne was already gone. Hylor Hobbs was only permitted to return because he was deleting his character and wanted to do an RP about it. Vellos had already sacrificed himself at the Temple of Light. Lefanis was not permitted to return under any circumstances. Athins was gone. The only one I can think of whom we allowed to return was Nigel de la Fere, and Evander pushed to ban him. Thought about trying to get Yuri Ishimu banned too for taking Avengmil over to MR shortly after the original secession.

A third of Riombara's current lords served in Meridian Republic. Three of them were actually lords in Meridian Republic. Meridian Republic and Riombara are the same people. If Riombara wanted to dissociate itself from Meridian Republic, it would have given Fwuvoghor back to Enweil and not given any position of power to those who served MR, if not outright ban them. I actually kept a list of all the MR nobles, because I correctly predicted they would just merge back into Riombara as if nothing happened once the monsters left.

as i said. it's more like anti-daimon rather than pro-monster. there might well be some people who were pro-monster, but it doesn't make anyone who fights daimons pro-monster.

given a choice of fighting daimons and monsters, i'll fight daimons, thanks.

of course.. daimons = enweil. so no brainer.

No, daimons fought the monsters to defend humans, while monsters defended no humans against anyone. Therefore, daimons > monsters. There was a reason Enweil allied it in the first place.
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Chenier

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Re: the conflict looming
« Reply #127: July 29, 2011, 12:30:40 AM »
well.. as i said, it's not pro-monster but anti-daimon.

They weren't anti-daimon, they were anti-Enweil. The daimons were just a coverup for feeding thousands of their peasants to the monsters to have them kill Avalon and attack Enweil.

Telrunya and D'Este were given amnesty because of their voluntary actions in returning their duchies, plus Telrunya stepped down.

Indeed, how convenient. As if I hadn't seen that coming as soon as the secession took place. If Riombara was pure, it would have refused them amnesty, and preferred to ask for Enweil's help rather than take them in as if nothing was to then proceed to steal Fwuvoghor. But killing human realms is no big deal when it's done by one of our own, right?
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Geronus

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Re: the conflict looming
« Reply #128: July 29, 2011, 04:29:57 AM »
A third of Riombara's current lords served in Meridian Republic. Three of them were actually lords in Meridian Republic. Meridian Republic and Riombara are the same people. If Riombara wanted to dissociate itself from Meridian Republic, it would have given Fwuvoghor back to Enweil and not given any position of power to those who served MR, if not outright ban them. I actually kept a list of all the MR nobles, because I correctly predicted they would just merge back into Riombara as if nothing happened once the monsters left.

No, daimons fought the monsters to defend humans, while monsters defended no humans against anyone. Therefore, daimons > monsters. There was a reason Enweil allied it in the first place.

Why on earth would we give Fwuvoghor back to you? As far as we were concerned we had a right to it in the first place, MR or no MR.

Geronus

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Re: the conflict looming
« Reply #129: July 29, 2011, 04:36:28 AM »
They weren't anti-daimon, they were anti-Enweil. The daimons were just a coverup for feeding thousands of their peasants to the monsters to have them kill Avalon and attack Enweil.

Indeed, how convenient. As if I hadn't seen that coming as soon as the secession took place. If Riombara was pure, it would have refused them amnesty, and preferred to ask for Enweil's help rather than take them in as if nothing was to then proceed to steal Fwuvoghor. But killing human realms is no big deal when it's done by one of our own, right?

This makes you sound paranoid. You've been informed by people who have no reason to lie that there was no coordination, IC or OOC, between Riombara and MR. Maybe some of those who went to MR planned to rejoin Riombara all along, but if that's true we certainly didn't know about it in advance. From what I heard at the time, Mordred alienated a lot of people towards the end. I have always assumed that that is why Telrunya decided to quit MR and rejoin Riombara. Maybe if he cares to, he'll shed some light on that subject himself.

Chenier

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Re: the conflict looming
« Reply #130: July 29, 2011, 04:57:42 AM »
This makes you sound paranoid. You've been informed by people who have no reason to lie that there was no coordination, IC or OOC, between Riombara and MR. Maybe some of those who went to MR planned to rejoin Riombara all along, but if that's true we certainly didn't know about it in advance. From what I heard at the time, Mordred alienated a lot of people towards the end. I have always assumed that that is why Telrunya decided to quit MR and rejoin Riombara. Maybe if he cares to, he'll shed some light on that subject himself.

It didn't need to be planned. It was obvious. How many realms created thanks to the invaders survive very long past invasions? None. It was therefore quite predictable that, in order to not be totally ruined, the opportunists would rather surrender to Riombara than die alone. It was also quite predictable that Riombara would then prefer to take back these nobles, to be in a stronger state to eventually fight Enweil again (because that's all Riombara seems to know how to do), then to do what is morally right and side with Enweil against the realm that used invaders to kill a human realm and attempt to kill others during the invasion, as that would have left them much weaker than they are now. That is Riombara. You are quite forgiving to your own when it comes to scandalous anti-Enweil actions. It's like when your judge executed an enweilian royal infil, despite an prisonner agreement saying she would be deported. Did Riombara actually punish the judge? No. The nobles cheered him, and he left for an allied realm on his own. His crimes, like MR's, went unpunished because they were aimed against Enweil, which many Riombarans have made it their holy quest to destroy.

These are the double-standards of Riombara. They scorn Enweil for having accepted the aid of an invader faction that demanded nothing in return, in order to survive, while they accept with open arms and give positions of power to people that fed thousands of peasants to invaders in order to allow them to destroy a human realm and with the hopes of destroying even more.

Coordination was not necessary, as you couldn't have planned it any better than what happened. Support was tacit. As for Mordred, that's just who he is. It is beyond me how people still don't get this into their heads. All he wanted was to form his oligarchic RoF back, he made it rather painfully obvious even before the secession occurred, and that he would eventually become ruler was obvious since day one.

Why on earth would we give Fwuvoghor back to you? As far as we were concerned we had a right to it in the first place, MR or no MR.

Because the only reason Enweil lost it was because of invaders. Some people complain that Fronen grew, but even *they* did not stoop that low, and basically only grew due to lords switching allegiance to them (+ the TO of Dyomoque, which nobody seemed to mind, Bara'Khur included). In fact, that's likely one of the reasons you were so eager to have MR nobles join back, so that you may take the city before Enweil mustered the force to reclaim it.
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fodder

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Re: the conflict looming
« Reply #131: July 29, 2011, 08:30:20 AM »
They weren't anti-daimon, they were anti-Enweil. The daimons were just a coverup for feeding thousands of their peasants to the monsters to have them kill Avalon and attack Enweil.

Indeed, how convenient. As if I hadn't seen that coming as soon as the secession took place. If Riombara was pure, it would have refused them amnesty, and preferred to ask for Enweil's help rather than take them in as if nothing was to then proceed to steal Fwuvoghor. But killing human realms is no big deal when it's done by one of our own, right?

how kind of you to play my characters for me. if i say my characters are anti-daimon, then they are anti-daimon. the fact that they are anti-enweil as well is neither here nor there and in either case they weren't pro-monster.

daimons fought monster to help humans? tell that to all the humans killed from Fwu all the way to athol margos and that was before the last invasion. let's see.. daimons, enweil, blood cult, etc, did that. my character happened to be the lord of ajitmon when that happened. thus, anti-enweil stems from anti-daimon

Fwuvoghor has nothing to do with anything, it belonged to riombara well before the last invasion.
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Telrunya

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Re: the conflict looming
« Reply #132: July 29, 2011, 01:09:46 PM »
Quote
I have always assumed that that is why Telrunya decided to quit MR and rejoin Riombara. Maybe if he cares to, he'll shed some light on that subject himself.

Mordred had quite quickly become a nuisance in MR and a few of us had made plans to work him out. Khaludh had learned about his RoF ideas as well. Sadly things had changed quite a bit, with some by the time we had a chance to do so and it was too late by then (Next to that, Khaludh was a bad Ruler). Mordred became Ruler and Khaludh retreated to Rines. He spend his days fortifying Rines to ensure it would be a proper Stronghold against any MR forces, figuring Riombara wouldn't have a lot of forces to defend his City (or if he needed to secede should Riombara have been destroyed). Except for the Oaths of Knights, not one gold produced by Rines went to MR (Something nobody seemed to notice for some reason) during that time. Once the Invasion came to his end, he and D'Este contacted Riombara to return. Khaludh didn't want his Dukeship any more, so that particular demand was quickly agreed upon. He served Riombara for a while as a repayment of his debts (Not that he had a lot of regret of his actions, except for thinking they could work out Mordred later). He was allowed to lead an Army as Marshal against MR. He wanted the deformed remains of his actions gone and wiped off the map.

And you can say what you want, but it's not like Enweil has such a good reputation in Riombara. The return of those lands allowed Riombara to recover quickly without needing to fully rely on an 'Ally' that they thought would certainly worry about their own lands and spoils first before worrying about poor Riombara's regions. It's not like Riombara had a lot of options.

Though, all in all, Riombara shouldn't have elected a Noble who was in their Realm for a month without having done anything out of the ordinary to prove his loyalty as Duke of Rines.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 01:12:07 PM by Telrunya »

Draco Tanos

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Re: the conflict looming
« Reply #133: July 29, 2011, 02:44:54 PM »
No, daimons fought the monsters to defend humans, while monsters defended no humans against anyone. Therefore, daimons > monsters. There was a reason Enweil allied it in the first place.
So you fell for their propaganda.  Gotcha.  The Undead gave similar propaganda.  That didn't make any of it true.

Indirik

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Re: the conflict looming
« Reply #134: July 29, 2011, 03:48:38 PM »
So you fell for their propaganda.  Gotcha.  The Undead gave similar propaganda.  That didn't make any of it true.
Someone give this man a cookie. Stat!
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