Character limit changes

[Medron Pryde]

If the Devs think that having two identical characters with one droning on is a problem then why not combat that?

Require that people have two different TYPES of characters so they can't play them the same way?

If you think that people having two warriors to boost national army size is bad, then say people can't have two warriors.

There are four main classes we can be right now.
Warrior
Courtier
Priest
Adventurer

If people want two people on the same island, require that they be separate classes.  Bam.  No more duplicate drones only there to boost army strength and not doing anything else.

Also, it would encourage people to try out the other classes if they've never done that before.

[Anaris]

It's not about being identical. In fact, the problem is almost exactly the opposite of that: generally, one character is played as a main character, while the other is played as a drone or support character, either providing support specifically to the main character, or to the realm. (Sometimes this support is even in the form of spying in another realm.)

Requiring that the two characters be different classes would do absolutely nothing to combat this problem.

[Sovari]

Dear Dev Team,

Clearly you have made up your minds on the one character per island, so pick a day to implement the changes and be done with it; courtesy would dictate at least a few weeks to prepare for the actual change.  Of course, this change will grind to a halt, for a time, all of the recent diplomatic and military activity on some of the "stale" islands (like Atamara), but hey, why let that get in the way?

Why you are at it, you should make a change that would actually have a larger effect on stagnation, and put in a natural death code to prevent all of those 100+ year old characters who occupy realm council and Duke positions.  There is nothing meaningful left to accomplish RP-wise with characters of that age, and it would actually give new players a chance to rise to positions or power, especially the coveted Duke/Duchess position, where they can split to form new realms.  And yes, I know of at least one Dev who had a 99 year old Duchess, but I am sure they were the exception to the "nothing meaningful left to RP" crowd.  In my experience since joining the game almost 10 years ago, these old characters are just as likely, if not more so, than a second character on an island, to be a "drone."  Combine this with the one player per island, and a player's own "replacement" can't be groomed from their character list.

While I am not a fan of the character limit change, mostly given the timing related to the recent events on Atamara, if it is inevitable, then announce the change and be consistent in taking steps to reduce stagnation and promote the enjoyment of new players by having a mass plague on all the islands that kills characters who are, at a minimum, over 100, with 85 probably being a better cut off.

A cute notion, the part where the 'stale' islands should just sit back and wait for death. My nobles and I are preparing to light up FEI like a christmas tree and one final campaign for old times' sake, for justice and the world's ending!!!

[Derek]

A cute notion, the part where the 'stale' islands should just sit back and wait for death. My nobles and I are preparing to light up FEI like a christmas tree and one final campaign for old times' sake, for justice and the world's ending!!!

If you think that is what I meant, then you need to read my post again.  The Devs think that limiting each player to one character per island will decrease the amount of stagnation in the game; I argue that it is all of the ridiculously ancient (100 year old+ characters) occupying realm council and lord positions that actually produces as much, if not more, stagnation as well as frustration for newer players that we are hoping to retain (but usually don't).  So while I will begrudgingly accept the character limit, I would hope that the Devs would address the very real issue regarding the stagnation caused by no life-span limitation.  Sure there are reduced hours and waiting for 1-2 weeks to heal from wounds, but many of these ancient Dukes just sit in their city, avoid combat and pad their family gold; this makes them much more a "drone" in many cases than a second character on an island.

[Anaris]

There's actually an active proposal in the dev board right now for an overhaul to how aging works.

[Sacha]

If you think that is what I meant, then you need to read my post again.  The Devs think that limiting each player to one character per island will decrease the amount of stagnation in the game; I argue that it is all of the ridiculously ancient (100 year old+ characters) occupying realm council and lord positions that actually produces as much, if not more, stagnation as well as frustration for newer players that we are hoping to retain (but usually don't).  So while I will begrudgingly accept the character limit, I would hope that the Devs would address the very real issue regarding the stagnation caused by no life-span limitation.  Sure there are reduced hours and waiting for 1-2 weeks to heal from wounds, but many of these ancient Dukes just sit in their city, avoid combat and pad their family gold; this makes them much more a "drone" in many cases than a second character on an island.

It's both, really. A lot of these dinosaurs were agents of stagnation well before they reached the pension age, and younger characters are just as liable to have a drone hovering about.

[Sovari]

If you think that is what I meant, then you need to read my post again.  The Devs think that limiting each player to one character per island will decrease the amount of stagnation in the game; I argue that it is all of the ridiculously ancient (100 year old+ characters) occupying realm council and lord positions that actually produces as much, if not more, stagnation as well as frustration for newer players that we are hoping to retain (but usually don't).  So while I will begrudgingly accept the character limit, I would hope that the Devs would address the very real issue regarding the stagnation caused by no life-span limitation.  Sure there are reduced hours and waiting for 1-2 weeks to heal from wounds, but many of these ancient Dukes just sit in their city, avoid combat and pad their family gold; this makes them much more a "drone" in many cases than a second character on an island.

No, I just didn't have an opinion about the lifespan thing; I intended to have my character die of natural causes around 85-90ish because she's not a Numenorean and thus can't reach ages of 180 like Aragorn can. And when she dies, a new generation will rise to continue her works and story with the help of my second character who will by that time be a supporting NPC.

And I'd be dishonest if I'd say I wouldn't mourn Viridiana, she's a beautiful character to play with.. but all beauty must at some day die. For all beauty fades, for that is why it is beautiful.

[Medron Pryde]

My oldest character, Regstav, was born over 9 years ago.  That's 91 years old in the game's relative age calculation.  He's been a hero since at least 2010 and has for that entire time charged into battle at the head of a phalanx of cavalry.  Against Daimons in Beluaterra.  He has personally charged undead and monster populations that have more CS than he did.  Without backup.  He has believed most of his life that it is his duty to fight the destroyers of humanity, and that death in battle is ticket to the next world as one of the most honored warriors of the gods.  And he still roleplays that he wields the fiery dragon sword he wielded in Beluaterra.  The one with the teeth of every greater Daimon he helped kill bolted into it.  He's up to 340 honor and 38 prestige. That puts him in the top 10 percent or so of the nobility of Atamara.  And his death in battle might just put my family on the list of most famous families in the game.

I do not shelter him behind a wall.  And for at least five years as a hero, in command of cavalry, every foe he has fought has kept on missing the opportunity to kill him.  I'm not saying he's lived a charmed life or anything.  But seriously.  How does EVERYBODY miss a guy with a target that big painted all over him?  Wielding a flaming fracking sword that says "I'm the leader.  Take me if you dare."  Granted, the last bit's RP, but...HOW does everybody miss him?

Not that I actually WANT him to die...but...He did come into this world kicking, screaming, and covered in someone else's blood.  It only seems poetic that a hero check out the same way...

As for the class issue.
You do realize there four standard classes people can play?
And that of them, the warrior class is by far the most common?  Because it happens to be most fun for most people?

If you lower people to one character per continent, without any option for playing a second character in one of the other three classes, you are going to end up with a whole lot of warrior chiefs and not very many support indians to help out the realms.  And that, in my opinion, will very badly hurt this game and the realms that fill it.

[Zakilevo]

Here is an example.

Sirion on EC has 50 nobles. But Sirion has 13 families with 2 nobles each. That is 26 characters from those 13 families.
These families are holding

16 land titles
4 ducal titles
5 military titles
1 government title

between their 26 characters. If you get rid of their secondary characters, their noble count falls to 37 from 50. At the same time, it opens up several titles for others to hold. If they can't, that means Sirion has overextended.

[Indirik]

We have been reducing the need for those support classes. Courtiers are almost completely superfluous. Traders aren't really needed, either. And priests are only needed for religions.

[Zakilevo]

Why not divide the classes up?
Has access to
Warrior
-Hero
-Cav
-Infil

Courier
-Amb (feels pretty useless maybe should grant diplomatic immunity so you can't be captured even in an enemy land)
-Trader (useless)

Priest (Maybe should be a standalone class while being unable to hold any secular titles)
-No access to 2nd class

[feyeleanor]

From what I gather reading this discussion the main aim is to keep new players, and the one noble per player policy on Dwilight is seen as the way to do that. Correct?

If so then why not force new players to start on Dwilight for the next few months and see if this really does increase retention?

[Eirikr]

From what I gather reading this discussion the main aim is to keep new players, and the one noble per player policy on Dwilight is seen as the way to do that. Correct?

If so then why not force new players to start on Dwilight for the next few months and see if this really does increase retention?

Not correct. Not directly, anyway... The concept, as I understand it, is that the one noble policy is one controllable factor of the overall retention. The policy theoretically creates a more dynamic atmosphere that promotes a positive experience for all players, which should primarily help the new blood since the old players have already stuck with it through thick and thin.

Dwilight as a location has no bearing on this other than as a testing ground for the policy. There are a number of different factors that could also affect player retention on Dwilight (primarily the Serious Medieval Atmosphere rule) that make it a bad test for direct player retention. Instead, you look at how much the island has changed politically, which indicates player-driven activity and stories. Since this policy has been in place since Dwilight's first days, there's no need to force new players into there for a month and see if they stick. There's enough data already.

Now you could argue that maybe it's even the SMA rule that causes the dynamic environment, but it would be a hard case to make. Something about Dwilight works... the next best option is to try recreating it entirely and starting from there - which would mean implementing both the one noble policy and SMA on all other islands.

EDIT: No content modified, just wanted to say... HEY! The wiki seems fixed! I don't need to re-upload my signature images! YAY!

[DK]

I've read only about half of this post and a few from others. Generally, there are those who will stay and who will not. Those that will stay are not going to outweigh any positive reaction while those who leave will give a negative reaction to the game. I for one, with my current characters placement, would be impact by this change but I would nevertheless, will still continue. But what worries me most is those who left especially some who really built their characters to attune with mine (even though secondary, not all just remains it as puppet). I can generally speak up that a lot of players will hate artificial changes or forced to make one. We cannot however force a character out of an island and I really suggest if 2 characters in the same island were to remain, a note like, "You are not allow to take political position (be it Lord, Duke or Council position) due to the influence of your family member that has another position", would be suffice. Yes, some realms may fall but I also understand the predicament of the players because they would wish to uphold that 'little history', nevertheless. If this 2 characters in the same island is remain and by imposing the position restriction, you can increase the density of knights per realm (which would very much improve region output).

However, with the changes made (to be made), making this changes would affect gameplay but I'm not out to detest these changes. I would like to recommend a little tweak because if one can take away, one should also give. My recommendation may or may not be justified but I feel this is what is needed to be done:

1: Old characters
- There is surely more old characters around in the game and one very difficult issue is the hours in a turn, tuning it will get rid of the dependency of a second character using it as a puppet to attain scout reports or do what the primary character isn't able to do. We are already getting 16 hours per turn (8 hours per turn) and there's not much you can do even with that. It will be okay if one keeps it but it is a penalty if characters are on the move and I'm sure many are prompted for a second character because of this. Either release the age penalty or increase the age whereby the age penalty would come to affect. I justify this with the second character usually far apart in age with the primary character.

2: Scouting
- It takes an hour to scout which is costly. I would suggest whereby scouting doesn't take any hours at all because it doesn't make sense to take the character's hour when the scout is actually doing the moving. When one sends a scout, it will take an hour or two in real-time for the reports to generate OR instant reports but with the report being inaccurate. Increasing the perks of how scout would value a battalion where the scout judge by banners when an army is stationed (scouts shouldn't be able to come near a camp) and maybe by marching movement if on the move (more accurate), I believe would bring a very far ahead excitement to the game. Yeah, a bit complicated but it's an idea.

3: Priest
- Priest characters are counted as noble counts and the priesthood is acting less a noble in average, the character itself, is under-powered. Tuning the priest character and allow more restricted actions can bring out what religion can bring to the game. Battlemaster (the name says itself) is all about how one can bring war into a nation and I would very much like to see sparking more crusade war. This would not only make it more lively but enhance creativity (which I have seen a lot). Put in more function and the players will let the ball rolling. With the one per island change, a priest can be closed to useless and would not encourage people to get that character (some may disagree but I will go with agree to disagree). Lastly, take out the restriction where a religion falls when their last priest leaves. A priest should be a way to strengthen a religion and maybe a spirituous leader, nothing less. Without a priest, I can see the religion falling by itself, there's no need for expecting that religion to fall if there's no priest anyway. You would expect realms to be closing shops but I see religions will be impacted more if nothing is done.

All these may attune BM to a more heavier game but I would like to beg a differ as giving so much feature doesn't mean a player would use them all. And sorry if it's long 

[Gabanus family]

DK, in my opinion you make some great observations and a few lesser ones as well :-)

Firstly, further restricting the capabilities of second chars (no lordship or whatever) will only worsen the drone aspect, not lessen. There are in fact 2 problems with dual characters on the same island. In many cases they are a drone to serve in the army of the primary character so his realm becomes stronger and his power is more secure. Secondly is when you do go into 2 different realms, it's often difficult to have these chars work against each other, leaving extremely strong ties between nations. Especially when both chars become important (Dukes or whatever). So in this regard, I don't really agree with your suggestion.

1: Old characters
- Personally I would have a different solution: Introduce mortality for all chars and make it more likely as the char gets older. It's rather rediculous to see 110 year olds lead a charge of cavalry don't you think? This would provide more opportunities in the game as well as Dukes and all (often older chars) die and leave a space for another to fill. I do agree though that the aging for the hours could start a bit later. But it makes sense that once you're like 60, it takes more time to do some things, which means you have less hours available. If it really bothers someone, they can always retire the char and start a fresh.

2: I agree entirely on this point.

3: I agree mostly on this one as well. Perhaps it's an option to make the priest similar to an adventurer with very limited impact directly via game mechanics. The religion game is almost dead, because most people don't want to 'sacrifice' a char for this. It would be interesting to get it back to life again and I think this may very well help.