Author Topic: Reply All button  (Read 11372 times)

JDodger

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Re: Reply All button
« Reply #15: January 22, 2016, 04:45:43 AM »
I don't see how such a mechanic could be exploited or abused. What, are they duping gold with their private messages? Ongoing conversations between a specific group are not even prevented in the first place given the existence of message groups. Who are you worried about excluding others if not the more powerful members of a realm, who can have message groups made whenever they want?

The cases where having a reply all button is useful are more than I can give examples for. But let's say for example you have two characters in a realm that have a problem with each other and it's becoming disruptive. Let's say the Judge of the realm gets involved and wants to have an ongoing three person conversation with the two arguing parties to calm them down. Already we have a case where you're going to have a largely disjointed conversation between the three because the two will just be sending their letters to the judge in most cases, forcing the judge to repeat the points made by the opposing parties to each other. Now let's say the judge wants to have the ruler involved, or the lieges of the two arguing parties. It becomes a huge pain and a case where at least one of the players is definitely not going to bother to go into their "some of your realm mates" menu and click all those names.

This is just throwing up a roadblock of inconvenience for the sake of a non-issue.
By the way, would love to see you coordinate three realms without having an OOC teamspeak with everyone on it.

Indirik

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Re: Reply All button
« Reply #16: January 22, 2016, 10:37:28 PM »
Quote
I don't see how such a mechanic could be exploited or abused.
You can't figure out, therefore it's impossible?

Off the top of my head, I can see at least three different ways that this proposed mechanic could be used to abuse the message system or prevent players from participating in the game. And at least two of them have already been done before in one fashion or another. It has resulted in certain game mechanics being altered to prevent such behavior in th future. And no, I'm not going to publicly detail ways to potentially abuse game mechanics. Battlemaster players are clever enough at finding ways to abuse mechanics without any help.

Quote
Ongoing conversations between a specific group are not even prevented in the first place given the existence of message groups.
Which have limits associated with them.

Quote
But let's say for example you have two characters in a realm that have a problem with each other and it's becoming disruptive.
Have the ruler create a message group for you. You've already got him involved anyway. Or hold it in public, and let the rest of the realm get involved. You may consider it disruptive, while other may consider it interesting, or even fun.
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GundamMerc

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Re: Reply All button
« Reply #17: January 22, 2016, 11:08:20 PM »
You can't figure out, therefore it's impossible?

Off the top of my head, I can see at least three different ways that this proposed mechanic could be used to abuse the message system or prevent players from participating in the game. And at least two of them have already been done before in one fashion or another. It has resulted in certain game mechanics being altered to prevent such behavior in th future. And no, I'm not going to publicly detail ways to potentially abuse game mechanics. Battlemaster players are clever enough at finding ways to abuse mechanics without any help.
Which have limits associated with them.
Have the ruler create a message group for you. You've already got him involved anyway. Or hold it in public, and let the rest of the realm get involved. You may consider it disruptive, while other may consider it interesting, or even fun.

I think he means disruptive in a non-RP sort of manner.

Noone you know

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Re: Reply All button
« Reply #18: January 24, 2016, 11:34:47 AM »


Except you made the Council Channel & the Ruler Channel, which nearly sunk the game.

This is nothing more than an annoyance remover - I know personally I have not bothered responding to messages on many occasions because it was too big a PIA to hunt through the list of check boxes.

This doesn't give anything new, it merely eliminates OOC irritation.

Indirik

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Re: Reply All button
« Reply #19: January 24, 2016, 04:38:31 PM »
You're saying the rulers channel and council channels destroyed the game? They've been in the game longer than I have, which is almost ten years. You're going to have to explain that logical contortion.
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Noone you know

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Re: Reply All button
« Reply #20: January 24, 2016, 11:34:31 PM »
I'll do it with one word:

Atamara

Anaris

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Re: Reply All button
« Reply #21: January 24, 2016, 11:40:25 PM »
I'm sorry, that doesn't make a blind bit of sense.

You may as well say that being able to make alliances destroyed the game.

Or that being able to take over regions destroyed the game.

The ruler channel, councils, and the individual government position channels have been in the game for a very long time—much longer than Atamara has been a stagnant problem.

Only one of those (the individual government position channels) were added since I joined the game in 2004. And the game was vibrant and growing very nicely for many years after that.

So you're gonna have to do a lot better than that if you want to convince anyone that adding those to the game destroyed it.
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GundamMerc

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Re: Reply All button
« Reply #22: January 25, 2016, 12:28:25 AM »
I'm sorry but I have yet to see how adding a reply all button will increase the use of groups in a exclusive manner. In fact, I would say that the fact you can't reply to all in certain circumstances encourages people to use the reply to sender option, which excludes EVERYBODY but the person who sent the message.

Noone you know

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Re: Reply All button
« Reply #23: January 25, 2016, 12:49:31 AM »
Actually, wasn't trying to.

Wanted to get you guys to show us how several exclusive channels (only rulers, only council) have been working perfectly fine, so that we can dispel this myth that "Reply all will make exclusive channels that will destroy the game"

Now that we've hopefully moved past that, let's discuss the royal pain in the ass it is to try to have conversations over a short period of time with a small group of people because of the lack of a reply all.

One of many examples - as General of a realm in an Alliance of half the island, where the generals frequently changed and guilds did not suffice, I frequently simply avoided answering when I didn't have the time/patience to go click through  a half dozen checkboxes. And that's pretty simple.

I would find cases where the general was asleep and the ruler managed the military for a realm, making it a royal pia to include him and also the Generals.

If I need to do it with a group of my Contacts, it is an excruciatingly long list to pick through over and over.

Interrealm relations are something that livens up the game, but this crushes all but the most minimal attempts to have it.

My personal feeling is, this is a very practical OOC tool that a great many people want for real life reasons. If you feel there is some way of some how abusing it, then go fix the abuse. Let us have something that makes gameplay easier.

JDodger

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Re: Reply All button
« Reply #24: January 25, 2016, 07:35:34 AM »
that brings up another potential improvement, having the option to send messages to multiple contacts at once instead of one at a time.
By the way, would love to see you coordinate three realms without having an OOC teamspeak with everyone on it.

Indirik

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Re: Reply All button
« Reply #25: January 25, 2016, 10:49:56 PM »
The ability to effectively coordinate and communicate between allies is not intended to be provided by the game. That is something that alliances must work it for themselves, using the tools provided. Inefficiencies in coordination between allies is one of the big disadvantages that groups of realms will face when they elect to team up on another realm. Smaller realms benefit from several economic advantages, including higher tax rates and better realm control, and some intangible benefits such as greater flexibility. They pay for it by having some added difficulties, such as a more fragile and less robust communication system.

If you want to have flexible, redundant lines of communications, you have to build that yourself using the various tools at your command, such as guilds and secret societies. Many alliances have been able to use these system to great advantage, effectively eliminating the problem, and turning the system into a great advantage. It takes some effort and some planning, and that is intentional. If you have the forethought and planning, and the necessary buy-in from your allies, then you can reap the rewards of your accomplishments.

You apparently created a system with a single point of failure, where your general was the only one who had the adequate contacts to coordinate? Why isn't your ruler part of that same guild? What about your marshals, and vice marshals? What about anyone else interested in the military aspect of the game? How did you expect anything other than crappy results, when you deployed a completely inadequate system? If you have a system that is so fragile that a single general getting wounded screws you over, then you have no one to blame for the resulting difficulty but yourself.

In regards to sending one message to multiple recipients from the contacts list, I am not completely familiar with the reasoning behind that decision. I believe that it is along the same lines as previously discussed: It is not intended for random nobles to be able to create their own ad hoc lists. The game creates multiple lists for you automatically, including your realm, duchy, region, government, guilds, religions, and secret societies. Options are also included for rulers to create a limited number of additional realm-specific groups. If you want to create other lists, then you will have to create the infrastructure for those lists. I.e. create your guild/society and get your allies to cooperate in spreading it around. If you can't get their cooperation to implement if effectively, then perhaps your goals really aren't all that important to them, it they just aren't competent.

Communicating outside your realm is indeed limiting. It's not supposed to be easy and convenient. That's where things like tournaments, guilds, and societies come into play: inter-realm communication. Many guilds were created specifically for the purpose of facilitating communications across large numbers of nobility from different realms. The nobles who take the time to travel the island, join the guilds, and assemble those contacts can reap great advantage from them. (I know of many nobles who toured an island during peace time specifically to join the guilds and build those contact lists. They became invaluable diplomats and sources of information.) If any noble could create ad hoc lists on the fly, then things like guilds and societies would become pointless.

So once again:

"Reply to List" for realm wide messages: Desirable. I support it, and I believe that Anaris or Vita are working on it as they get the time.

"Reply to List" for a self-selected group of "Some" recipients: Not desired.

Sending a single message to multiple recipients using the Contacts list: Not desired.
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Vita`

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Re: Reply All button
« Reply #26: January 25, 2016, 11:00:03 PM »
And this seems an opportune time to assert religions as a great means of inter-realm communication. Islands of 2-4 religions with members of numerous different realms. And no, it doesn't necessarily mean everyone *inside* the religion has to get along all the time.

Noone you know

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Re: Reply All button
« Reply #27: January 26, 2016, 12:44:26 PM »
That's all nonsense. The only "ineffectiveness" is Real Life waste of time because of bad design.

If I were an actual character, I could sit and write letters all day. As a real person with a job, a wife, two children, responsibilities & a personal life, I don't want to waste my time clicking the same buttons over and over & copy/pasting the same message in to send to 5 people individually when a decent tool can do it at once. I have contacts records for all of them.

This is not the game, this is an out of date web tool. This is a really stupid thing for the dev team to be arguing against so strenuously when all the players are telling you it is a real life annoyance & they play less actively because of it.

Indirik

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Re: Reply All button
« Reply #28: January 27, 2016, 12:18:55 AM »
No one has ever told you that the way you are describing is the way you need to do it. In fact we are explicitly telling you to NOT do it that way. You may, of course, continue to do it that way, if that's what floats your boat.

Alternatively, you could try the way we're recommending: Create yourself a military coordination guild. If you think that creating the guild is too difficult and time consuming, then ask one of your fellow players to do it. Throw it out to the realm, and to your allies. "Hey, this would be a good idea. Would someone like to do it?" I imagine you'll have a few volunteers. Players like to participate in things, and feel like they're contributing. If you can get the lord of the capital to do it, then your players won't even have to take a side trip to do it. You'll have greater participation from other players, redundancy in your command structure, ease of communication, and a better game experience from everyone involved.

If you choose to continue trying to play the way you describe, against the advice of everyone, then I'm afraid there's not much we can do for you. You'll just have to deal with the problems you're creating for yourself.
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GundamMerc

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Re: Reply All button
« Reply #29: January 27, 2016, 01:54:43 AM »
No one has ever told you that the way you are describing is the way you need to do it. In fact we are explicitly telling you to NOT do it that way. You may, of course, continue to do it that way, if that's what floats your boat.

Alternatively, you could try the way we're recommending: Create yourself a military coordination guild. If you think that creating the guild is too difficult and time consuming, then ask one of your fellow players to do it. Throw it out to the realm, and to your allies. "Hey, this would be a good idea. Would someone like to do it?" I imagine you'll have a few volunteers. Players like to participate in things, and feel like they're contributing. If you can get the lord of the capital to do it, then your players won't even have to take a side trip to do it. You'll have greater participation from other players, redundancy in your command structure, ease of communication, and a better game experience from everyone involved.

If you choose to continue trying to play the way you describe, against the advice of everyone, then I'm afraid there's not much we can do for you. You'll just have to deal with the problems you're creating for yourself.

Utter dog!@#$, I've already tried that and failed several times.