Retention Revisited

[Chenier]

For #3, I'll be the devil's advocate and say that what they don't know doesn't hurt them. What will it change to their lives if they lead 15 men instead of 40 (or more)? You probably don't want them running off doing TOs anyways. As long as they don't know their income is !@#$ and can maintain at least a few men, it shouldn't bother them.

As for the rest, I think that strife and plotting is actually a turn-off for most newbs. They expect a team game, and then realize that their "team" can't work together and is in a pityful state of disharmony. Their realm therefore "sucks".

Even I, as ambitious as I may be, started out like this. And while I did dream of power, I dreamt of leading a sanctioned colony in the name of my king or liege (for example, by creating a New Vur Hagin colony in Luz de Bia back in the days).

All of this despite how much more they can achieve as part of a smaller group and the potential of involvements these bring. Newbs tend to prefer being a marginal player in a big strong team than a strong player in a medium and mediocre team, apparently.

Which makes me think... Perhaps we should have surveys for the players every now and then? A kind of census, where we ask a ton of questions about everyone's experiences with the game, what they are looking forward to, and what they like the least. A few questions about what keeps people interested and the such. This could help us better target our retention efforts.

[Gustav Kuriga]

For #3, I'll be the devil's advocate and say that what they don't know doesn't hurt them. What will it change to their lives if they lead 15 men instead of 40 (or more)? You probably don't want them running off doing TOs anyways. As long as they don't know their income is !@#$ and can maintain at least a few men, it shouldn't bother them.

As for the rest, I think that strife and plotting is actually a turn-off for most newbs. They expect a team game, and then realize that their "team" can't work together and is in a pityful state of disharmony. Their realm therefore "sucks".

Even I, as ambitious as I may be, started out like this. And while I did dream of power, I dreamt of leading a sanctioned colony in the name of my king or liege (for example, by creating a New Vur Hagin colony in Luz de Bia back in the days).

All of this despite how much more they can achieve as part of a smaller group and the potential of involvements these bring. Newbs tend to prefer being a marginal player in a big strong team than a strong player in a medium and mediocre team, apparently.

Which makes me think... Perhaps we should have surveys for the players every now and then? A kind of census, where we ask a ton of questions about everyone's experiences with the game, what they are looking forward to, and what they like the least. A few questions about what keeps people interested and the such. This could help us better target our retention efforts.

Actually, once a new player is with an army, they will notice the discreprancy between their unit and everyone else's. It also means the person who gave them said crap deal is a jerk.

[Chenier]

Actually, once a new player is with an army, they will notice the discreprancy between their unit and everyone else's. It also means the person who gave them said crap deal is a jerk.

But what *less* can they do? They can do just the same as everyone else, they are just less effective at it.

[Gustav Kuriga]

But what *less* can they do? They can do just the same as everyone else, they are just less effective at it.

You know, I really didn't think I'd have to explain the difference between a 15 man unit and a 40 man unit. If we assume a unit with good training, over 70% cohesion, and over 60 weapon and armor, a 15 man unit will have about 300 CS. A 40 man unit will have over 600 CS. You only hurt your own realm by giving your knight a crappy tax rate.

[Sacha]

Fortunately money helps ease the pain.

[JPierreD]

For #3, I'll be the devil's advocate and say that what they don't know doesn't hurt them. What will it change to their lives if they lead 15 men instead of 40 (or more)? You probably don't want them running off doing TOs anyways. As long as they don't know their income is !@#$ and can maintain at least a few men, it shouldn't bother them.

All of this despite how much more they can achieve as part of a smaller group and the potential of involvements these bring. Newbs tend to prefer being a marginal player in a big strong team than a strong player in a medium and mediocre team, apparently.

lmao

Yea, keep your knights with !@#$ty armies, eternally begging for money in order to maintain a small army, that will do wonders with retention! Specially when they see the ruler and powerful people running around in large nasty armies, deciding the fate of battles practically on themselves, and they only getting a handful of orders (which if they fail to follow is no big deal, as they are quite expendable anyway, as long as they keep providing estate).

And, honestly, most people I've invited wanted to be /players/, not spectators of a very powerful realm. What you've described is the best way to drive away experienced players from your realm, and new players from the game. It only works with extremely unambitious people (the holy grail), multis, and half-active people that know you already, so they don't really care.

[Chenier]

You know, I really didn't think I'd have to explain the difference between a 15 man unit and a 40 man unit. If we assume a unit with good training, over 70% cohesion, and over 60 weapon and armor, a 15 man unit will have about 300 CS. A 40 man unit will have over 600 CS. You only hurt your own realm by giving your knight a crappy tax rate.

They will be less effective in battle. That's just means they are less good at what they do, not that they can't do as much. They can go fight battles or do civil work just as 80+ men units can. They just won't be that effective. And besides, that !@#$ty income in a rich realm can maybe allow them to do more than a good income in a poor realm.

lmao

Yea, keep your knights with !@#$ty armies, eternally begging for money in order to maintain a small army, that will do wonders with retention! Specially when they see the ruler and powerful people running around in large nasty armies, deciding the fate of battles practically on themselves, and they only getting a handful of orders (which if they fail to follow is no big deal, as they are quite expendable anyway, as long as they keep providing estate).

And, honestly, most people I've invited wanted to be /players/, not spectators of a very powerful realm. What you've described is the best way to drive away experienced players from your realm, and new players from the game. It only works with extremely unambitious people (the holy grail), multis, and half-active people that know you already, so they don't really care.

Nowhere did I say that *I* did this. I just said I expect you are making more of a fuss about its consequences than it truly is.

I've personally always been ambitious, and in my first years I *always* saw dukes and powerful people having bigger units than I had. Was I disappointing? Sad? Angry? No, I considered it *normal* that people higher up get more prestigious units. The e-peen is earned. And as such, every time I could increase my income to increase my unit size, I was delighted. Basically, because I was increasing the size of my e-peen.

Because that's all unit size on the character scale is, an e-peen.

[Bedwyr]

Well, if your unit is too small you lose a lot of looting options, razing options, takeover options, and hunting if it gets really small.

[Chenier]

Well, if your unit is too small you lose a lot of looting options, razing options, takeover options, and hunting if it gets really small.

But you still get to loot. As for takeovers, newbies shouldn't be doing them anyways. Razing? I'm pretty sure that, as for takeovers, you need *big* units for them, and not just average? Not certain on that.

As for hunting, well, depends on how small we get. You need 20 men to hunt. 20 men of the cheapest type is usually affordable with a rather small income. And with 20 men, I think you get to pick your looting kind in most rurals.

So give someone enough gold to recruit 20 of the cheapest men, and you are giving him access to all the options he might need to use.

Again, though, I stress that I don't do that, and that I tend to be a rather generous lord. Knights can make valuable allies, especially if well-armed.

[JPierreD]

Nowhere did I say that *I* did this. I just said I expect you are making more of a fuss about its consequences than it truly is.

Glad to know that. Hope I didn't imply you were actually doing it. I like to think I was keeping it hypothetical.

I've personally always been ambitious, and in my first years I *always* saw dukes and powerful people having bigger units than I had. Was I disappointing? Sad? Angry? No, I considered it *normal* that people higher up get more prestigious units. The e-peen is earned. And as such, every time I could increase my income to increase my unit size, I was delighted. Basically, because I was increasing the size of my e-peen.

Did you have 15 units and saw your superiors run around with 60 or 80 Cavarly or SFs units? There is one thing as bigger units, and there are other cases of excess.

So give someone enough gold to recruit 20 of the cheapest men, and you are giving him access to all the options he might need to use.

As long as they don't lose a single men in combat, and such. If they have infantry they tend to lose them after battles and have to replace them, you know how it works. In any case, though you were talking about 15 men units, it's not only about having all the options, but as being part of the happenings, not a mere spectator. If you don't feel you are a useful part of the team, the quality of your experience is at best different.
Of course Dukes and Kings will have more gold, more responsibilities and more say. The point is to balance how much of those, if any, the knights have.

[De-Legro]

Having played as a character making a measly 16 gold per tax I can tell you that it is not a fun situation. Any loses require you to beg for gold, often even to repair I needed to get a gold supplement. Battles are a whole lot less fun if you feel that your troops barely make a difference even being there. Everyone expects that Dukes and Lords will support larger units, the question is how much larger can they be before the lower characters are left feeling like useless filler for the armies.

[Chenier]

Having played as a character making a measly 16 gold per tax I can tell you that it is not a fun situation. Any loses require you to beg for gold, often even to repair I needed to get a gold supplement. Battles are a whole lot less fun if you feel that your troops barely make a difference even being there. Everyone expects that Dukes and Lords will support larger units, the question is how much larger can they be before the lower characters are left feeling like useless filler for the armies.

Newbs don't know how much they can (or can't) make a difference. By the time they do, they should be smart enough to find a better oath than with the cheapskate they first got.

And I remember that the dukes had *much* bigger units than I had. They could wipe out rogues on their own, I could not. But then again, only they could, everyone else in the realm (in the days where knights outnumbered lords) had to work together. I wouldn't want to be stuck with that income anymore, but that doesn't mean I felt persecuted in any way when I began playing with it. Past 20 men, it's only about what one is used to. "Normal", "decent", and "acceptable" are all very subjective and relative, and if you ask 20 different people, you'll get 20 different answers.

The bigger problem is when newbs are put in the !@#$ty army that never does anything, not when they aren't given enough to be able to kill everything by themselves. Hell, I'd say it's a good thing if they need to work with others to deal with enemies and rogues, cooperation is what the game is all about.

Or if the dukes intentionally give small oaths in order to do manual transfers after. I hate such micro-managing. (note: not the same as giving everyone decent oaths and then giving a supplement to units that got significantly damaged compared to others, or to finance a takeover unit or two per army, which is perfectly legit imho)

[Heq]

I literally spend the first three months with a unit of 15 men.  When I finally scraped together some allies I got it up to 20.

It sucked hard, 300 CS was like my dream unit.  Eventually I shanked the king in a coup, but still, 10% of a poor rural region is a raw deal, clearing 22-25 gold a tax day and actually worried my men might go up in training because then I couldn't afford to fix damage.

There really should be a code of "don't be a douchebag" for all lords.

[Kai]

I think what you're talking about with cheapskate first oaths is completely stupid, new players shouldn't have to put up with that on principle regardless of expectations.

[Chenier]

Improving one's fate is what I found most fun in the game. The lower you start, the more you can improve.