Is Dwilight really SMA?

[Anaris]

Where are you pulling this "majority of players don't take it seriously"? Players take any powerbase seriously and will take religion seriously when it threatens to rid them of their power (e.g. The gigantic SA bloc.) The current problem the original poster has mentioned is that some people wish to stop organized religion because of religion will become a new player in the power structure of realms. This is only a problem in areas where religion has not already penetrated.

This is a problem because medieval times were pretty much characterised by religion being a major player in politics.

There's a huge, enormous difference between "taking religion seriously" as a political power, and actually taking religion seriously.

No matter how cynical and power-hungry the medieval nobles and religious powermongers were, they really believed in God.  All of them.  Atheism or even agnosticism was just not even a concept in the minds of the time.

The problem with religion in BM isn't that people don't take it seriously as a political institution.  If your religion needs help doing politics, that's your problem.  The problem with religion in BM is that a great many people don't have any notion of just how serious religion was as religion in the milieu we are trying to represent.  Many of them barely even pay lip service to the Gods they purport to worship.  Or not even that.

That is the problem with religion in BM.  It's nothing to do with politics.

[Shenron]

There's a huge, enormous difference between "taking religion seriously" as a political power, and actually taking religion seriously.

No matter how cynical and power-hungry the medieval nobles and religious powermongers were, they really believed in God.  All of them.  Atheism or even agnosticism was just not even a concept in the minds of the time.

The problem with religion in BM isn't that people don't take it seriously as a political institution.  If your religion needs help doing politics, that's your problem.  The problem with religion in BM is that a great many people don't have any notion of just how serious religion was as religion in the milieu we are trying to represent.  Many of them barely even pay lip service to the Gods they purport to worship.  Or not even that.

That is the problem with religion in BM.  It's nothing to do with politics.

I somewhat agree, but I wouldn't hastily discard the political factor. Perhaps I shouldn't have said it's to do with taking religion seriously a political faction. What I meant was that players know that if they are to RP their character as becoming openly devoutly religious, they understand that they will be welcoming a new element into politics that will change the previously pagan political landscape.

Know what I mean? 

[songqu88@gmail.com]

You're not going to get people to accept something that they may have no concept of in this age. Yes, religion still plays a major role in our lives. But in our modern age a lot of separation has occurred that makes us take mundane matters often more seriously than spiritual ones.

To give a more vivid illustration of our modern treatment of some religions, at some point in Ancient Greece their gods were feared, and people really did not mess with the priests in fear that they'd be...turned into some weird monsters or something.

Now? We made three games in which some Spartan guy kills Ares and in the latest one he boots Zeus out of Olympos.

Our current popular concept of Hell as fire and brimstone came from Dante's The Divine Comedy. By the way, remember that game about the Spartan guy? Yeah, they cloned the mechanics of that game, and replaced the Spartan guy with a Crusader guy who kills Death, gets his scythe, and messes up Hell, all while still being mortal or something.

So my point is, I have a pretty good feeling that there are very few modern humans living in all of the continents except Antarctica (And even there, I'm pretty sure the scientists aren't waking up every morning in their monasteries) who really think of religion as anything significant in the BM world, apart from maybe an interesting little flavor. New players certainly would NOT understand that it can be a means for power. No, seriously, they will not understand that, unless you are very clear how that works, which so far, it is not clear.

Besides, this is still a game, and even if we are being seriously Medieval about it (Hey, why haven't I seen people roleplay their nobles as dying due to the various diseases that permeated in utterly filthy Medieval Europe? Come on, man up and be serious: Kill off your characters. lol), there are still some concessions to keep this enjoyable as a game. For one thing, make this mechanic of religion something more applicable with effects that can be seen immediately. Then again, religion is often best served subtly.

So what? Realism doesn't always lead to enjoyment. Would you like to be really seriously Medieval? How come I don't see the elder priests leading regular religious gatherings? Surely not ALL religions on Dwilight have no concept of having their members meet at least somewhat regularly in one of their temples to gain blessings of some sort? (In other words, none of those regular gatherings that just about all major real world religions have, and which would have been a bit more important to make back in the Middle Ages probably). You know why? Y'all are too lazy to do something as dedicated as that.

Make religion more serious? You can't teach a cat to bark  you know.

[Anaris]

You're not going to get people to accept something that they may have no concept of in this age. Yes, religion still plays a major role in our lives. But in our modern age a lot of separation has occurred that makes us take mundane matters often more seriously than spiritual ones.

I know.  That's why I simply said that that was what the problem was, rather than saying we need to force them to change.

It's definitely a problem, and I don't know what the best solution is.  It's possible that, in the long term, the best solution is to switch the SMA designator to a different, smaller, island, make sure that anyone going there fully understands the implications of it, and be ruthless in enforcing it.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

I would totally like that, a downsized island with certain different features. Kind of like War Islands, but like...Faith Islands or something, lol.

For Dwilight, it's a bit too big, and well, you know, there are otherworldly beings, so I'm not quite sure how really seriously Medieval people in general can take it.

[Vaylon Kenadell]

It's possible that, in the long term, the best solution is to switch the SMA designator to a different, smaller, island, make sure that anyone going there fully understands the implications of it, and be ruthless in enforcing it.

This is a bad idea, and such an island would fail to attract the number of players that Dwilight has. Artemesia's concerns are correct: it is a lot of work to play out and maintain religion in such a strict manner (for very little payoff, at that), and few people would find it enjoyable. More realism does not always equal more fun.

[Anaris]

This is a bad idea, and such an island would fail to attract the number of players that Dwilight has. Artemesia's concerns are correct: it is a lot of work to play out and maintain religion in such a strict manner (for very little payoff, at that), and few people would find it enjoyable. More realism does not always equal more fun.

That's why I said it would be smaller.

If we can't grow the playerbase significantly, I'm thinking maybe South Island-type small, maybe a little bit bigger than that.

[Vaylon Kenadell]

Would Dwilight stop being SMA if such an island were created? Or would we just call it SMA: Hardcore? 

[Anaris]

Would Dwilight stop being SMA if such an island were created? Or would we just call it SMA: Hardcore? 

As it's entirely speculative, and I just came up with it 10 minutes ago...I don't know.

[Glaumring the Fox]

You're not going to get people to accept something that they may have no concept of in this age. Yes, religion still plays a major role in our lives. But in our modern age a lot of separation has occurred that makes us take mundane matters often more seriously than spiritual ones.

Your playing a roleplaying game, use your imagination... There doesn't need to be any massive mind shaking change in your life to roleplay a character.  If they cannot accept the IG mechanics of religion it is because they are still playing a RP character like they themselves would act in reallife , making them !@#$e roleplayers.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Yeah? Who said everyone needed to be good at roleplaying in this game? This isn't the Anachronistic Merrymen Troupe we're running here. BM is half strategy game, remember that. Furthermore there are people whose native language is not English. Combine the two and that means you'll have a bunch of people who might be willing to RP but unable to communicate the proper words and a bunch of people who'd rather just win battles and write the occasional message as required.

Roleplay is not required as part of this game, and in fact, one can do perfectly fine without writing a single word. They might not get any positions, but not everyone cares. They don't need to write letters to get an oath, though the liege may or may not prefer it. Some lieges have just accepted my oath offers without caring whether I say anything to them. So, they can go field a unit and go into battle. For some players, that's perfectly alright.

And finally, do not be so condescending to others who may not be as capable as you may believe yourself to be at roleplaying and imagining things. There is nothing wrong with roleplaying your actions as you would do so in real life, as I guarantee there are a very few of us here who are worth anything as writers of fiction. And furthermore, what makes it "Good Roleplaying" if players consistently only play characters that are dissimilar to themselves? If they do what they are comfortable doing, and it's within the rules, that's all good.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Perhaps we should have wheelchair access put up in every realm and no smoking sections to.

[Anaris]

Like it or not, Glaumring, nobody has to pass a test to get into this game. Nobody is required to be a master roleplayer. Nobody is even required to be a good roleplayer.  There are plenty of people—even among those who write lots of long RP messages—who are, in fact, atrocious at roleplaying their characters.

That is the case, it has always been the case, and it will always be the case.  We cannot ignore it, change it, or pretend it is going to go away. 

What we can do is try to make the game as fun and accessible as possible to people at both extremes—those who primarily want to roleplay being a medieval noble, and find this a good place to do that, and those who primarily want to plan out medieval wars, and find this a good place to do that—as long as they aren't trying to prevent people who fall elsewhere on the spectrum from also having fun.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Perhaps we should have wheelchair access put up in every realm and no smoking sections to.

How about you try again, with something useful to say?

Contrary to your beliefs, I have trouble seeing you as any good of a roleplayer (and believe me, I've read them), so how about you try giving us all a nice little lesson on how to do it, hm? Maybe prove otherwise?

So far you have made the rather bold implication that you are better than the majority. Would you please back it up. Your most recent post is not very convincing, in case you were wondering.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Perhaps we should arrange an ingame marriage between Garrett&Glaumring to seal our love for eachother eternally in a roleplayed format?

I said nothing about being the best roleplayer or anything like that, I merely said that people are cheating themselves by not partaking in some of the religions in Dwilight. The main gist was to get people to consider trying out a religion instead of being a pagan in the game. I am very aware of the different styles of RP and players in Dwilight and glad they are all there. I was not saying there should be a test involved to get into Dwilight. Artemesia will jump on the attack whenever I mention anything and twist it around. He has a very special understanding of humour or even sarcasm. That is fine, I am happy with that.  Now check this out