End of SA?

[Vita`]

If I recall correctly, Mariah said she would join If the ESA followed the prophet directly and had only Mathurin as the sole prophet, which whoever I spoke with disagreed to.

Though at that point I had kind of stopped caring about Battlemaster and was just going through the motions. I had a really long period of just playing the game without writing anything.

Ah yes, 'sole' would've been an issue. ESA follows Mathurin, but also holds Rabisu and Malus as prophets. Some within ESA hold Seoras as prophet. But there is nothing in Mathurin's words that proclaimed him the only prophet, that was only part of the corrupted political-establishment of SA after he departed. Even that SA does not follow Mathurin's teachings anymore, but Jonsu-Alaster-Helm corruption ;) Our view of prophethood is that a Prophet is acclaimed/recognized by the Church community, not self-declared or appointed by elders. In other words, it something that is earned by behavioral distinction of one's peers.

See, I really think thats a part of why we have different smaller groups and frustrated people, is people coming and going. So, for myself, I know I came after frustrated folks within both SA, Lurian, and Asylon/Bloodmoon corners, and I tried to work with elements of each where we were compatible first by reforming the existing and then founding ESA.

Meanwhile, some of those folks I came after were too frustrated with events that they either quit, pause, or were barely-engaged. Until finally I become frustrated enough with others not-engaging that I myself pause, barely-engage, and pause again.

And meanwhile to my disengagement, new players have come, old players have created new accounts, unpaused, or gotten more active, and are now frustrated with my disengagement, so that they try to reform institutions I've already tried to reform, and create institutions to do what I've already been doing with institutions created. No differently than me starting a new institution after there were already existing institutions, or having attempted reforming other existing institutions. And so we continue the cycle...

[Sacha]

If religion acts that way, it is meaningless. The whole point of religion is to have a set of loyalties and restrictions that conflict with those in the realm.

Kind of difficult when the leaders of the religions are all lords or higher. Religion, from the start, has just been another tool for realms to pursue their own ambitions. If you really want religion to bring conflict to realms, make priests unable to hold any other titles, and give them the means to become powerful and influential in other ways. Make it a commoner class, even. Get some High Sparrows, rather than all the High Septons we have now.

[Bronnen]

Ut Trutina has a high sparrow

[pcw27]

People in the various religious camps need to recognize that RP is co-operative and that even though you may think that your idea and play provides something that should motivate more of us, that other people do not. If religious leaders try to go beyond setting a background to my realm's culture and move into setting constrictions or prescriptions on my realm's policies I'm going to ignore them or use what I find helpful and ignore the rest.

In other words, we don't buy all that you're selling. Try reshaping your RP to be more interesting and helpful to us rather than wailing on why we won't play your way.

What you fail to realize is that while for you realm is the highest priority for others it is not. In SA for many years the religion was the highest priority. The church wasn't the tool of the theocracies, the theocracies were the tool of the church. It must have been a good system that people liked to play because when we did things that way the religion had hundreds of players and the game had much higher player density, without needing to depopulate huge swaths of the continent. I don't think it's fair or justified for you to characterize my complaints as merely a demand for my play style. I came to enjoy this play style during a time when it was popular throughout the game world. As it became less popular, the religion became less popular and the entire game along with it.

It kinda bothers me that almost every single person just rejoined the SA and not a thing was said about it. It was just, "Oh, she went crazy and corrupt" when she literally stated (as an elder of the faith and light of the stars) that the stars were corrupted and had been taken over by a demonic influence.

It's the equivalent of the Pope saying "god is evil" and everyone just going, "meh, whatever".

I was hoping there would be some more roleplaying about it, but there was one, one letter sent to me from someone in the SA, and that was Helm.

Also, the Pope saying 'God is evil' would probably result in the Pope being considered as mentally ill, not Catholics suddenly disavowing the beliefs they've had their entire life, so I'm not surprised by that reaction to Mariah. Seoras with ESA went with a continuation of SA by 'we are the Second Church as prophesied by Mathurin'.

The Catholic Church has had some absolutely bat!@#$ crazy popes. If you're not familiar with it I'd suggest looking up "The Cadaver Synod".

Ah yes, 'sole' would've been an issue. ESA follows Mathurin, but also holds Rabisu and Malus as prophets. Some within ESA hold Seoras as prophet. But there is nothing in Mathurin's words that proclaimed him the only prophet, that was only part of the corrupted political-establishment of SA after he departed. Even that SA does not follow Mathurin's teachings anymore, but Jonsu-Alaster-Helm corruption ;) Our view of prophethood is that a Prophet is acclaimed/recognized by the Church community, not self-declared or appointed by elders. In other words, it something that is earned by behavioral distinction of one's peers.

I don't believe there was ever an official declaration that Mathurin was the sole prophet. In fact in his own time he said there would be others. However he never acknowledged another prophet in his own lifetime and disavowed at least one heretic who claimed to be one so declaring a new prophet became a very controversial idea in SA. ESA treats it more like Sainthood.

[Gabanus family]

I agree, your realm should not always be your highest cause, nor should religion always be. I tend to switch these things up between nobles.

[Vita`]

I don't believe there was ever an official declaration that Mathurin was the sole prophet. In fact in his own time he said there would be others. However he never acknowledged another prophet in his own lifetime and disavowed at least one heretic who claimed to be one so declaring a new prophet became a very controversial idea in SA. ESA treats it more like Sainthood.

No, not officially, just 'accepted' amongst everyone in SA for many many months/years now.

Seoras paid attention to *why* Mathurin disavowed another and in fact, uses *those very reasons* as why SA has fallen in corruption. Mathurin disavowed Allison's OA because it was a personal glorification of herself, no worthwhile teachings, a political Church. That didn't mean there weren't still faithful within it, but as a Church Elder Establishment, it had been used as a tool of the theocracies' political hegemony and not vice versa. And ESA has always been strongly opposed to any Prophet self-declaring as being a sign of 'self-glorification'. And focused upon church/community improvement via the religious teachings

I would say ESA's sainthood is much more the Venerated than the Prophets. Those are hero characters who have died in battle, not only of ESA depending on roleplay, but are given a 'holy day' for annual celebration and remember of their life, that we may benefit and learn from their experience. Though I got lazy and I don't think I added the most recent, Draco Dogsbody, who came back to life like Seoras did.

[pcw27]

I agree, your realm should not always be your highest cause, nor should religion always be. I tend to switch these things up between nobles.

Precisely, and the conflict between the too motivations ads a lot of excitement.

[Bronnen]

Problem is that most people don't have those conflicts.

[Sacha]

Nobles should be looking out for themselves first and foremost ;)

[Vita`]

Nobles should be looking out for themselves first and foremost ;)

Well, there is the whole 'team game' aspect mentioned on the front page. But yes, seems many use 'team' as excuse to be bland.

[Gabanus family]

Nobles should be looking out for themselves first and foremost ;)

And if you want to play it less extreme (team aspect and all) at least get different groups towards whom you hold loyalties which can conflict (realm and religion) but also loyalty to a specific person and when he clashes with the realm, so do you for instance. General is often a perfect example, but also your Lord/Duke etc.

[Attano]

I would have written something with Yven when it happened, why it had happened, etc. But from an IC view she was REALLY peeved off and wanted nothing to do with the rest of SA.