Modifying TMP Training Reductions

[Jens Namtrah]

SURPRISE!

We just introduced a new thing called TMP.

It's brand new, and we know you had absolutely zero warning it was coming.,

Oops!

[Sacha]

I will never understand how TMP on Dwilight can be so bad that it cripples a realm. There's tens of thousands of CS worth of rogue hordes all around the island. Sure, TMP has had some harsh effects, but half of you are acting like the devs just sprung it on you out of the blue. It's been around for a pretty long time now, yet people still manage to get blindsided somehow.

[Jens Namtrah]

Ah, but Sasha, it is completely, 100% the Devs' fault...

You see, they kept it in testing for so long, no one took it seriously.

They were supposed to spend the last year or so preparing, but instead they decided it was just another annoying daily message to ignore, so they got whacked.

Entirely the Dev team's fault.

[Jens Namtrah]

Let's make one last effort.

Madina dies. So !@#$ing what?

Darka  dies? So !@#$ing what?

Realm X dies? So !@#$ing what?

You just simple don't get it.

TMP is a purely OOC way for Tom to tell you,

"You are a !@#$ing failure in my game. You aren't playing the way I want you to. Leave now and let some one else have a go."


Tom and the average player doesn't give a flying !@#$ if your realm lives or dies. They are here to have fun.

If keeping your realm alive means sacrificing the fun of the players of the realm, your realm should die.

Get it now?

If everything you do is for the sake of keeping an online, fantasy realm's name alive in exchange for the complete boredom of 20+ players,

Your realm should die.

Get it now?

Now one !@#$ing cares if your realm lasts forever, if the players who made it that way all quit the game from boredom.

Get it now?

Before you come here and bitch, step back for a moment and look at your realm in a negative light, and look at how many messages were exchanged, and how much say the average player had in the decision making of your realm

There are a lot of "patterns" you can try to glean, but the one I've noticed most - realms where everyone participates actively in decision making doesn't have TMP problems.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Please, do try to add something useful to the conversation. Sarcastic comments that in no way move the discussion forward are at best not useful, and at worst cause a discussion to be brought to a standstill because some people thought it would be funny to make fun of other forumers comments on a topic. In fact, I have seen this turn into a trend for both Sacha and Jens Namtrah. It is getting annoying, as I have been seeing it on more than one topic.

Would you like someone making jokes about your apparent lack of intelligence to make meaningful conversation on a subject? No? Then type something that needs more thought than that of a ten year old.

Back on topic. I feel that TMP as it is effects too many things that are required in order to effectively fight a war, and I also think that it should take longer to take effect when at war with someone. "Why?", you may ask. I feel that it should take longer to take effect during war because often refit times will lead to a certain amount of time with little or no battles taking place, and I've had it happen twice in Darka, where during a refit we have started getting TMP notices even though we are headed back to the front. Not only that, but often one army will be at a slight disadvantage to the other. Often this means the best strategy would be the Fabian strategy, avoiding decisive battles but picking off stragglers and so on. Therefore you would not be fighting battles, but would be waiting for the right time to strike a decisive blow. TMP thus favors larger realms in a way that is above and beyond simply greater numbers and strength crushing you, but taking one of a smaller realms few viable strategies and throwing it out the window. I'm not saying a larger realm shouldn't be able to absolutely crush a smaller realm if they each have equal leadership, but the larger realm has more resources to throw into battle. I'm saying that a smaller (read: 14 region 2 city realm versus 20 region 3 city realm) realm should be able to use viable strategies, rather than rush into a already lost battle for fear of TMP.

[Kain]

Let's make one last effort.

Madina dies. So !@#$ing what?

Darka  dies? So !@#$ing what?

Realm X dies? So !@#$ing what?

You just simple don't get it.

TMP is a purely OOC way for Tom to tell you,

"You are a !@#$ing failure in my game. You aren't playing the way I want you to. Leave now and let some one else have a go."

You seem to think the problem in every single realm is bad leadership, but if the majority of realms in bm has leadership problems, it is not the leaders, it is human nature.

And TMP is not solving human nature.

[Nosferatus]

I can really feel Shenron here.

Ow i bet you do... 


on topic: I really agree with what you two butt-budies said, completly. Tmp should either be removed or something completely else should take its place after we tried a few months without tmp.

and yes, i noticed tmp does effect unit morale, some how.
I've seen many units beeing payed 2 times a week who stay within there own realm drop to 0/25% morale during the ultimate stage of tmp.
It also effects morale(when you don't drop taxes with atleast a quarter) in regions which give you low morale troops when recruiting, solution would be lowering taxes so you can buy only less troops, who you can't send off to battle anyway because once they reach there they will have 0 training, especially on Dwilight.

The questions is not if its manageable to prevent tmp, because it is, simply start a to in a rogue region.
Or even if the effects of tmp are managable once they hit.
But the real question is, do we really need it? does it really bring more wars?
In my opinion only if you can answer this question with yes (and off course examples that proof it), we should think of keeping tmp and asking other question like is it manageable or not.
As long as we can't answer this most important quistion, we should simply remove it.

the defense for tmp does make sense but again, do we actually need this?
I mean how far do we know tmp is positively effecting people to declare war? and what kind of war?
Does it really spark interesting wars or will it only turn realms like Melhed to join an already gang bang because its realm is falling apart due to tmp.

[Nosferatus]

You seem to think the problem in every single realm is bad leadership, but if the majority realms in bm has leadership problems, it is not the leaders, it is human nature.

And TMP is not solving human nature.

+1

[Sacha]

Am I wrong then? TMP has been around for at least two years, iirc. For every realm on Dwilight that complains about the effects of TMP, there is one that has barely had a warning. Luria Nova began getting them, and they suffered some minor penalties from it, and then they sent troops to assist PeL and hey presto, problem solved. In the specific case of Madina/Aurvandil, how is TMP to be blamed for the stalemate in the war? In the specific case of Fissoa, there are plenty of hordes to be fought for those who are willing to leave their borders. In the specific case of D'Hara, all they need to do to find battle is sail to the east.

If they choose to stay holed up, then that's their choice, but then they don't get to complain about not finding enough battles. If they want to persist in their old ways, then by all means they should do so. Meanwhile, others will adapt to the situation and figure out how to deal with it IC, rather than come here and complain that they're being treated unfairly. If you act like a child, I'll treat you as one. The code is the same for everyone, as are the effects. If you can't adapt, you'll perish, just as nature intended.

[Gustav Kuriga]

It's purpose was to increase the number of wars fought. It isn't doing that. Therefore, TMP is not doing the job it was implemented for. It isn't even a matter of like or dislike. It's a matter of something that isn't doing what it was coded in to do, and therefore should not be used for that purpose.

[Nosferatus]

If you act like a child, I'll treat you as one. The code is the same for everyone, as are the effects. If you can't adapt, you'll perish, just as nature intended.

Do you think it's childish to discuss game mechanics? isn't that how BM is intended?

And again, please if you think tmp should stay, give me an example of how it improves battles, don't repeat that it should, tell me it did.

The reason why some of us complain now(atleast for me) is because we give tmp a chance before we have an opinion, features like this should be tested for a long time.
I believe tmp did not cause more wars and or battles untill now, i'd even say less.
I've also not heard ANY example of how it DID improve wars and battles apart from the Melhed example, which shouldn't be called a war anyway(no battles are fought, enemy was already defeated).
It also did perhaps motivate realms to hunt rogues away from home, but religious believes or even startegic reasoning could also have caused that.

[Chenier]

and btw guys, a good way around tmp is to TO a rogue region every week.

Nonononono. We got hit by TMP precisely because we TOed a rogue region, meaning we didn't get any fights for a few more days than we otherwise owuld have and that our realm was therefore eligeable for harsher requirements because it was larger.

TOing rogue regions won't solve your TMP problems.

[Nosferatus]

Nonononono. We got hit by TMP precisely because we TOed a rogue region, meaning we didn't get any fights for a few more days than we otherwise owuld have and that our realm was therefore eligeable for harsher requirements because it was larger.

TOing rogue regions won't solve your TMP problems.

it worked in Madina though, there where no battles but one TO, the day after there was no more tmp.
Either way it was more of an example of how it could effect gameplay in a negative way.
I think its fairly lame to try and 'fool' game mechanics or find ways around it without any ig reason.

[Kain]

the defense for tmp does make sense but again, do we actually need this?
I mean how far do we know tmp is positively effecting people to declare war? and what kind of war?
Does it really spark interesting wars or will it only turn realms like Melhed to join an already gang bang because its realm is falling apart due to tmp.

That is an important question I think. What kind of war is created, if any? I seem to recall wars being fuelled by misunderstandings, feelings getting hurt, insults and the like. Real hurt and mistrust was created, and those are the kind of wars that are the most fun.

I'm not much for the ones where we just attack someone because we have to. So sometimes we need to let the coming war brew a little. Give some space for some misunderstandings to take place.

The players want war so I don't think we (for the most part) need a mechanism to encourage it. It will happen sooner or later anyways.
Sure there have been times when a few leaders have needed to be bolted but those times are relatively few, and insolated to some islands.

[Shizzle]

That is an important question I think. What kind of war is created, if any? I seem to recall wars being fuelled by misunderstandings, feelings getting hurt, insults and the like. Real hurt and mistrust was created, and those are the kind of wars that are the most fun.

I'm not much for the ones where we just attack someone because we have to. So sometimes we need to let the coming war brew a little. Give some space for some misunderstandings to take place.

The players want war so I don't think we (for the most part) need a mechanism to encourage it. It will happen sooner or later anyways.
Sure there have been times when a few leaders have needed to be bolted but those times are relatively few, and insolated to some islands.

I just couldn't agree more. Also I'll simply pose an OOC question to the realm, seeing that Shenron and me seem to be the only people from Fissoa voicing their thoughts. I don't want to be defending a Fissoan case if the rest of the realm disagrees.