Estate System

[Sacha]

That'll just cause Lords to park their second characters in their region as clones. Hardly helpful. And it would be a rather pointless solution to a problem that is already planned on being fixed when the estate reforms come through.

[J-Duds]

You must have a very, very different concept of what "respectable weekly income" is!

Well, my numbers might be off since it was over 4 years ago but it worked out to around 50 gold each which, at that time on the EC was the average character income.  And who said building a recruitment center was even on the list of things that needed to be accomplished?

You also have a very very strange concept of fun.

Run court all the time and wave your big knight dick.

Well, yeah.  It wasn't just clicking a button once a day and writing one message saying "I'm important look at my knights!".  It was the interaction of 7 people roleplaying at once.  I won't go into detail since this is off-topic enough as is, but to put it bluntly the fun came from the interactions and dynamics of the mini-duchy I built rather than watching my 50 man unit silently beat the crap out of some other guy's 50 man unit every 3 days.

The reason why places like Oritolon march across entire continents is because they don't even have enough nobles to hold what they have, let alone pick an expansionary war with a neighbour. Back in the day folks, we used to be able to go to war with our neighbours.

This ain't TravelMaster.

I think this is part of the mindset that creates this issue with estates.  I have one real question and several rhetoricals:  Why must wars simply be fought for conquest?  Why is it that the only way to wage war is to forcibly remove the other realm's influence from a region then put your own nobles in their place?  Why can't you use gunboat diplomacy to force the lord and his knights to defect?  Why can't you go on a raid, steal some gold, and go home?  If a realm insults you/your king/your mother, why can't you simply crush their standing army and force them to appologize without conquering half of their territory? 

Hell, look at Dwilight.  People whine and complain about how the continent is so big and that they are lucky to have 1 knight per region and yet realms are still expanding into the unclaimed territory.  Its not purely the fault of the estate system.  Everyone wants to conquer new regions and spread out the few nobles in the realm because it gives them a chance to move up in the pyramid scheme that is feudalism.  I won't say if this is good or bad, but you can't only blame the system when the choices people make are just as responsible. 

[AlexR]

That'll just cause Lords to park their second characters in their region as clones. Hardly helpful. And it would be a rather pointless solution to a problem that is already planned on being fixed when the estate reforms come through.

I am sure there is a better way to allow additional nobles for existing players.  For example, allow more nobles and 3 per continent but with a limit of 1 per realm.  I find it great to play in 2 different realms and could probably play in 3, but even the best/eldest players who have 2 nobles in the same realm regularly send messages from the wrong sender and generally don't do a very good job of separating them.

Well, my numbers might be off since it was over 4 years ago but it worked out to around 50 gold each which, at that time on the EC was the average character income.  And who said building a recruitment center was even on the list of things that needed to be accomplished?

Well, all of my Lord characters seem to be building RCs and walls (where possible).  Perhaps because I got the war-torn regions that were demolished.   As a lord I want to build up my region and the realm needs recruitment centers...

As far as income -- 38 is a far cry from 50.  I doubt that the average _lord_ income was ever 50 (you'd hope to make more than your knights).  Anyone receiving 40 or even 50 gold ends up relying on help from a wealthy noble -- assuming you're doing anything at all that causes you to lose men.  Plus, as had been rightly pointed out, there simply aren't enough nobles.  Getting a 2nd noble is pretty difficult, even when I can offer well above 50/week.

[Revan]

That'll just cause Lords to park their second characters in their region as clones. Hardly helpful. And it would be a rather pointless solution to a problem that is already planned on being fixed when the estate reforms come through.

Heh, I thought that was happening already? Even I've ended up doing it. One of the only sure ways to try and boost your nobles these days and keep your realm ticking over is to employ two characters in the same realm. Which is another thing that can't help the atmosphere because that's essentially, like the warfare issue, a meta decision. I don't really want two characters in the same realm but life's gonna be hard whatever I do.

I know I probably shouldn't still be banging on about estates, but I'm dubious as to whether we might actually soon live without their debilitating pall over our heads. Now I live in fear that the changes will be mostly cosmetic. Until I see firm details, I'm going to be sceptical

I think this is part of the mindset that creates this issue with estates.  I have one real question and several rhetoricals:  Why must wars simply be fought for conquest?

You're missing the point. Conquest is no longer even a choice for the majority of realms. And it isn't anything to do with anything any of us are doing in-character, in-game. It's to do with the fact that the player base has diminished. Though considering that wars of conquest had to take place on your own borders and not on the other side of the continent, yes, I wouldn't mind at all if it once again loomed large in BM diplomacy.

[fodder]

50 gold? 30 odd gold?

what's so good about that? are the dukes paying proper prices for food? chances are they aren't.

did estates make lords pay their knights more? did trading make dukes pay the rurals more? (and thus enhancing income of lowly knights)

chances are.. no. but is it the fault of estates/trading.. or is it the fault of players? far too many players are nationalists and we hear drivel about low prices or whatever for the good of the realm.

[Indirik]

That's because the players *gasp* like being on a team. Because BattleMaster is advertised as a team game. And like it or not, the Realm is the Team. Given the way the current system works, and I don't see this changing ever, let alone soon, it's going to stay that way. Realms that work together to get things done will be more efficient and more effective than realms that don't.

[Bedwyr]

we hear drivel about low prices or whatever for the good of the realm.

This I've never understood.  Low prices for food do not benefit the realm.  High prices for food are good for the realm, as that gets more gold to the rural lords and knights which means you have more units  at a reasonable level and like it or not, the most efficient army is (leaving aside considerations like looting types, razing fortifications, TO's, etc) an army with every unit the same size because of the diminishing return in CS for larger units.

Low food prices benefit the Dukes, and only the Dukes.  There's nothing good for the realm in them at all.

[De-Legro]

This I've never understood.  Low prices for food do not benefit the realm.  High prices for food are good for the realm, as that gets more gold to the rural lords and knights which means you have more units  at a reasonable level and like it or not, the most efficient army is (leaving aside considerations like looting types, razing fortifications, TO's, etc) an army with every unit the same size because of the diminishing return in CS for larger units.

Low food prices benefit the Dukes, and only the Dukes.  There's nothing good for the realm in them at all.

It is only good for the realm if the Dukes would prefer to allow the cities to starve rather then pay a decent price for food

[Shenron]

Low food prices benefit the Dukes, and only the Dukes.  There's nothing good for the realm in them at all.

Damn communist.

 ......

[Kai]

This I've never understood.  Low prices for food do not benefit the realm.  High prices for food are good for the realm, as that gets more gold to the rural lords and knights which means you have more units  at a reasonable level and like it or not, the most efficient army is (leaving aside considerations like looting types, razing fortifications, TO's, etc) an army with every unit the same size because of the diminishing return in CS for larger units.

Low food prices benefit the Dukes, and only the Dukes.  There's nothing good for the realm in them at all.

Usually this is handled in a more direct and honestly simpler manner where nobody has to stuff with the trading. Lords send food when dukes want it, dukes sponsor armies and hand out gold. Trading was one of the most unpopular classes ever, of course nobody is going to touch this.

[Sacha]

This I've never understood.  Low prices for food do not benefit the realm.  High prices for food are good for the realm, as that gets more gold to the rural lords and knights which means you have more units  at a reasonable level and like it or not, the most efficient army is (leaving aside considerations like looting types, razing fortifications, TO's, etc) an army with every unit the same size because of the diminishing return in CS for larger units.

Low food prices benefit the Dukes, and only the Dukes.  There's nothing good for the realm in them at all.

Depends on what the Duke does with his money. I paid my Lords zilch for their food, they just wheeled it into my city by the cartload. But, out of the 800-1,000 gold I made every week, a good 500-700 flowed to the rural Lords. Everybody was happy, and the ducal army was strong and efficient.

[De-Legro]

Usually this is handled in a more direct and honestly simpler manner where nobody has to stuff with the trading. Lords send food when dukes want it, dukes sponsor armies and hand out gold. Trading was one of the most unpopular classes ever, of course nobody is going to touch this.

The entire thing can be handled without Traders though.

[Indirik]

The entire thing can be handled without Traders though.

But it requires people to do something. And that means they have to learn how to do something. And most people just don't want to learn. Then there's the occasional "I don't use that feature, it has too many bugs", despite the fact that they don't know of any specific bugs, but there must be bugs in it because someone once said there were bugs... Add in the confusion of the interface that has both the ox cart and caravan systems, manual automated caravans, automatic automated caravans, player trader caravans, manual purchase orders, auto-generated warehouse purchase orders, automated transfer settings, etc., etc., and it's interface overload for many players, spread across too many screens. (Or maybe not enough screens? Or poor placement choice on the screens that do exist? Or poor naming choices?) Sure, I understand the interface, but that's probably because I helped Tim work it out. And maybe that's part of the problem, because I'm not an interface designer. The food prediction system on the Trade Settings page mimics my personal Excel spreadsheet that I used to do food transfers when I was banker of Astrum.

[Nosferatus]

Somebody said something about poor regions not being possible to give a decent share to 6 knights.
Check this out: http://imageshack.us/f/838/bmomglloringel.png/

(mind that i have only 2 knights, region is quite far from capital and yes i am keeping stats fluctuating between 80 and 100% and i just made an investment, lets see if i can handle 2/3% tax increase for a week and see how much of the projected income will actually be collected )

micromanage to the max!

[Chenier]

I think closing a continent would be an excellent idea. The problem is, which one?

My suggestions are: Beluterra or the Colonies. Of course, everyone has their favorite continent, so here are my explanations:

Beluterra: half the continent is gone anyway.
Colonies: politics are at a standstill, with nobody wanting to take on Lukon. It's a pretty boring place to play.

Preventing people from playing on the island of their choice will not necessarily make them pick a new realm, and if they do they won't necessarily like it. They will most certainly be bitter and resentful, though.

This would just be yet another attack on players to force them to play a certain way (or in a certain place). And if they lose the realms that were keeping them in the game to begin with, and end up in realms that don't meet their expectations, they are likely to leave.

I for one, will not stick around if BT is closed for arbitrary reasons. If BT dies due to the incompetence of humans realms, I'll likely try to stick around, but I doubt I will get enough interest in the other continents to keep me playing. Dwi is ok, but not enough on its own, and I can only have 1 character there. Circumstances will play a great role, but I've played all of the continents and I know what I am ready and no longer ready to do for this game.