The Current War

[Regulus Blackmore]

If there was ANY objective at all, it WAS to secure access to the Cagilan Empire. This was done, and is done.

Looking at the map, and taking in consideration the position and situation of Coria when the treaty was signed, the treaty is a failure for the norther realms.

Everything changes if we add that Eston ( Kerwin ) wants to start a friendly relation with Coria, it is a good treaty for that, limited military access and peace between both Realms. Regulus wouldn´t be surprised if Coria and Eston sign an alliance in the near future... but here is the main problem, Eston signed a good treaty thinking in her interests ... but not good enough for her allies.

[Perth]

Looking at the map, and taking in consideration the position and situation of Coria when the treaty was signed, the treaty is a failure for the norther realms.

Um... how?

Coria has granted the allies access through their mountains to attack the Cagilan Empire. Plus they have disallowed Tara to travel through Coria in the event they decide they might want to attack us. Also, they have granted the allies permission to attack Tara through Coria if Tara breaks the peace with Carelia. Now, I would agree that attacking through the mountains is not ideal, hence Kerwin's insistence that the attack go through Talerium, Darka refuses of course, though. And now the Kostaja is saying how difficult it is to attack over the mountains 

Nevertheless, the allies HAVE achieved access to the Cagilans and Hammarsett can join them as soon as it makes peace! 

[WarMaid]

Just to be clear, we are talking about one incompetent ruler, yes? Who has since disappeared (player timed out).

I don't know that he was incompetent so much as arrogant.  He pushed too far and in a direction that he didn't need to push.

Regardless, the fact that a new ruler was elected doesn't mean that the realm doesn't have to deal with the consequences of the former ruler's actions.  My character has certainly had to deal with things that my former ruler did (or didn't do), and Carelia's a monarchy.  A Republic is going to be held to an even higher standard of realm responsibility for the ruler's actions.

[egamma]

I think Darka should have pushed to build temples of Darkanism in Coria. How come this isn't standard procedure?

[Silverfire]

I think Darka should have pushed to build temples of Darkanism in Coria. How come this isn't standard procedure?

Well that's one surefire way to have Coria destroyed....Choose a treaty term that will never be accepted.

[johnny Hammarberg]

It could be that the church and religion is separated in Darka?

[LilWolf]

I think Darka should have pushed to build temples of Darkanism in Coria. How come this isn't standard procedure?

While Darkanism is the state religion of Darka it isn't about spreading the faith by the sword..and generally speaking the government and the church are left to do their own thing.

[Munro]

I think Darka should have pushed to build temples of Darkanism in Coria. How come this isn't standard procedure?

I don't understand why people think Coria was surrendering. We weren't. We offered peace, we were not rolling over and giving up. Sure we were on the back foot, but at no point were we left completely defenceless. I'm not saying that peace wasn't wanted or needed as it was, and this is why there are some Corians who now feel indebted to Eston, as many of the leaders of their allies now know.

But this peace was not achieved in the same way most people seem to think it was. This was not the unconditional surrender which most people think it was. We were always given a set of demands, and when we agreed to meet the main principles of these, peace was offered. But now people are coming out and saying that Eston has been tricked? No.. the main goal for the Northern realms was to attack CE, they've told us this IC and OOC. But now it's claimed after the fact they could have gained loads of Coria's lands? This was never demanded (apart from Nazia as it bordered the CE).

As it is, apart from Eston, the rulers of the Northern Federation are being quite ridiculous in their demands. You given an inch, they take a foot as they say.

Here's an analogy: The Northern Federation demand 100 pieces of copper, 50 pieces of copper is offered by Coria, then the majority accept, only for one realm to state that they now want Gold, and then the rest claim the same.

We've gone from peace talks, to 'cease fire' talks. Which ironically is what we had at the start, so the whole thing is pointless. But not only are we having ceasefire talks, they expect for the same agreements to be honoured as the ones we made when we were discussing peace!

My character does not understand why those characters think that a realm offering neutrality would be in the same position to ask for quite substantial demands against another realms allies.

If a friend (peace) asks you to do a favour which may risk getting you in trouble with your wife/husband (allies), this is completely different to some guy you've never really spoke to (neutral) who asks you to do the same favour.

You all want a shakeup in politics, Kerwin had succeeded in the first steps to this, but all the other Northern leaders have done is to suggest that Coria has made the correct choice in allies. If you ask me as a player who has the stronger alliance. Given the reactions of Darka BoM and Hammarsett towards Eston, I'd certainly say the alliance Coria is currently in. It doesn't seem like CE, Tara and Talerium are so quick to jump on another allies back about something they don't like.

For example, Tara didn't really want to become so offensively involved in this war, this was frustrating to Talerium Coria and CE, but none of us started to behave the same way with them as the North did with Eston.

[Sacha]

That's all good and well, but Coria was the aggressor in this war, and made a rather ludicrous and unprovoked demand. If someone attacked my realm under that pretense and then sued for peace when his capital was sacked, I'd make him pay out the nose to get peace, and not just give up a claim to one region he doesn't even own anymore. The access to CE we wanted is a joke. We have exactly one point of entry that takes us through mountains, where our men starve to death due to lack of food only to be greeted by an army sitting behind a wall.

[roland.walters@abbott.com]

The access to CE we wanted is a joke. We have exactly one point of entry that takes us through mountains, where our men starve to death due to lack of food only to be greeted by an army sitting behind a wall.

Starvation can be averted by taking along food in caravans so this is not a valid argument.  Armies behind walls are only a problem if you have not brought enough men and seige equipment along.  Good planning will overcome both of your objections.

Roland

[Sacha]

Straw man argument. Why should we waste gold on caravans and take precious food away from our realm to make an attack, simply because one of our allies signed a silly treaty without consulting us beforehand? And we brought almost 20,000 CS in a single army, almost all heavy infantry with numerous siege engines. But that doesn't help us much when the only way to our enemy's land is through a 30,000 CS army behind a palisade, again because our allies signed a silly treaty without consulting us.

[Silverfire]

That's all good and well, but Coria was the aggressor in this war, and made a rather ludicrous and unprovoked demand. If someone attacked my realm under that pretense and then sued for peace when his capital was sacked, I'd make him pay out the nose to get peace, and not just give up a claim to one region he doesn't even own anymore.

I don't think you understand how long Coria has been seeking peace. We had been in peace talks for well over a month before our capitol was sacked. We'd even already agreed to terms, and this was also while Nazia was still a region of Coria's. In fact, we agreed to terms once with Kerwin, and then he had to come back later and ask for more in order to satisfy the desires of his realm and allies. We agreed to these immediately as well. The fact is that the treaty was agreed upon well in advance of the sacking of Barad Falas. In fact, the only reason the city was sacked was because Merlin was trying to deliver the treaty to Eston via the new treaty system that was already agreed to be signed.

The access to CE we wanted is a joke. We have exactly one point of entry that takes us through mountains, where our men starve to death due to lack of food only to be greeted by an army sitting behind a wall.

You're right the access that you have to CE is a joke. However, if you want to go through "Coria" We can ONLY offer you passes through mountains. Coria's only connection to CE is through a mountain pass via Nazia or Galadia. If you want to take another entrance into CE, you either have to enter through Tara (roundabouts Tarasac) or through the rural regions of Talerium (which are "off limits"). So there should be no reason to complain to Coria. Coria gave you an entrance to CE and it is the best entrance that we can give you as a realm. It's not like Coria makes it a habit to go visit CE. In fact, even when my character did visit CE's capitol it was through use of Tara's lands.

Coria has done everything possible to rid ourselves of this problem, and it is only greed that has kept the northern alliance from signing full peace and doing exactly what they say they wanted to do: Fight CE.

[Munro]

Coria was the aggressor in this war, and made a rather ludicrous and unprovoked demand.

I don't even know where to start with that comment. Do you even know why the war was started? There were two main reasons, but both were due to the actions of the Estonian government.

Firstly, and the main reason Saeculo proposed war, was because of their handling of the Herunumen incident. It's funny, because as a player, I suspect that it was a member of an allied realm which originally put the bounty on Saeculo's head for his support of Eston! How ironic is that? In the League of the Eagle, Saeculo had been quite outspoken in his support of Eston and then suddenly found himself with his first and only bounty, putting two and two together, I'd suspect it was an ally who placed the Gold on the bounty board.

Regardless of this, and despite the protection Coria had offered Eston (preventing access of Carelia to through our lands) Eston allowed Herunumen to escape, the very man who had stabbed a loyal friend of Eston's. Now I understand that many in Eston won't know that Saeculo was pro-Eston, but nevertheless, Saeculo felt betrayed by those he once considered friends. If you remember, Coria did not participate in the CE/BoM war  and the reason for this was because Eston was involved and we didn't want to attack their troops.

The second major incident was when Talerium assassins assaulted an Estonian. Because of this, we were threatened and the trade which once existed was halted. Regulus has used the same argument against Coria, but I really don't understand how people can justify attempting to punish Coria because of the actions of an ally. Those nobles did not traverse Corian lands to reach Eston, nor did they have our support, we didn't even know until after the fact. Yet on both occasions with Eston and Hammarsett, this has been used as an excuse to punish Coria. Both instances, it's ended in War. Lesson? Be just in your punishments and don't punish those un-involved.

Friendship between Coria and Eston had been growing before this war, since the foundation of Coria in fact, and but for those two occasions we wouldn't be at War.

Indeed, I believe the player of Roland can confirm that Saeculo was willing to travel to Eston to speak with their King over the matter. Coria actually tried to avoid war at first, but then King Jean demanded that Saeculo leave Eston for "his protection could no longer be guaranteed".

But as you seem to know, can you please tell me what Coria's demands were? Originally, it was that their Judge, Athena be punished and removed from her position. Funnily enough, your own rulers demanded the exact same thing in regards to Roland and Jean before they would help out Eston.

Then during the war, the reparations we requested was for a food producing region in compensation so that we would not have to depend on Eston for food in the future and so that they could not attempt to use this as leverage again. Thus our peace demands were not harsh against Eston when we had the upper-hand, and Eston's were not harsh against Coria when they had the upper hand, so I fail to see your point?

Now we are at peace again, Kerwin and Saeculo seem to get along, and I wouldn't be surprised if both realms start strengthening their friendship once again whilst respecting their current alliances and commitments.

Additionally, it's the choice of your own rulers to go through the Corian mountains. Other than flying (this was not an available option in the Medieval period) or going through Talerium, how else do you wish to gain access to the CE? 

[Indirik]

The second major incident was when Talerium assassins assaulted ...

...everyone?

Seriously, Talerium has more rogue infils than any realm I've ever seen! They wander all over the place hitting anyone they want, and then refuse to do anything about it.

But as you seem to know, can you please tell me what Coria's demands were?

The demands I am familiar with, and what got Darka involved in the war, were "Eston has to give Coria the Barad Lacirith duchy." i.e. Eston has to give their capital duchy to Coria. To be fair, I believe it was CE's ruler that made that demand, and not Coria. But then Coria went along with it? So, they de facto became Coria's demands. I'm not privy to all the various ruler channel stuff on AT, so I obviously don't have all the back-and-forth that must have gone around.

[Munro]

Eston has to give Coria the Barad Lacirith duchy

This was never even considered by Coria. Not in its Senate nor its Military Council. The reason in part that Hammarsett was created was because we didn't really have enough nobles to control the additional Duchy of Shannandoah, so we definitely didn't demand the Duchy of Barad lacirith, we just couldn't have controlled it physically with the number of nobles we had. It would have been a pointless demand because we had the opportunity to gain the Duchy of Shannadoah a month or so before which we declined.

But then Coria went along with it?

No, we didn't. I can honestly say that neither my character or myself as a player had any knowledge of these demands by any Corian or member of the CE. Saeculo has always been near the top of Corian politics, so I can only assume that no other Corian had any knowledge of this. Perhaps the ruler at the time may have, but no steps were taken to make this a reality.