Author Topic: The Current War  (Read 552489 times)

Silverfire

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Re: The Current War
« Reply #180: March 23, 2011, 11:08:19 PM »
The Cagilan Empire functions very much like a real Empire, particularly in the manner that they create and maintain client states to secure their borders. Coria and Talerium are two such client states.

While everyone is perfectly entitled to their opinion, and I respect that, the fact that your character is not a realm of Talerium, Coria, or CE makes this a very hard statement to make. Yes, it may appear as such to one outside of the alliance that CE currently maintains but a simple statement like this is false, at the very least for Coria. I can only speak for Coria as my character is Corian and happens to help a lot with diplomacy in our realm.

Now, I can almost guarantee that CE began the idea of creating the Corian colony with the idea of it doing exactly as you have said. However, as one of the original colony members, I can say for sure that things have not exactly happened the way that CE would have liked them to with Coria. We haven't done everything they've wanted us to do, and it reached a point where there was very broad disagreement and distrust between the two realms. This has since been abated, just as the disdain for Eston has largely been abated since the signing of the treaty, but Coria is far from a client state of CE. Yes, we are their ally and our military prowess has at times increased the strength of the "empire" that CE may maintain but we can't be said to be a puppet realm of them. Many of our CE allies were upset that we signed a treaty to get us out of the war and can no longer support them in their trans-continental fight.

As it stands, a vast majority of your arguments though stand very true, and I'm surprised you're one of the first to actually state it. Although, I do think it a bit overly ambitious to seek to destroy CE utterly and completely due to the simple mechanics of the situation. CE is the single most populous realm on Atamara and it will be very hard to destroy any realm that large in any reasonable amount of time. In fact I don't see it as feasibly possible unless EVERY realm on Atamara fought against them. The fact is that destroying realms is NEVER taken lightly and is not easy to do before a realm either surrenders in which it is expected they are at least spared or realms begin to think twice about destroying a realm completely as they wouldn't want to be utterly wiped off the island if they were in a similar situation. As one of the few rulers who has ever personally destroyed a realm, I can say it is a very hard thing to do both character wise and as a player because you know that every realm has so much history.


Geronus

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Re: The Current War
« Reply #181: March 24, 2011, 12:41:00 AM »
Although, I do think it a bit overly ambitious to seek to destroy CE utterly and completely due to the simple mechanics of the situation.

If you don't kill them, or at a minimum remove their advantages for a future conflict, you might as well have lost. They'll just come back later at a more opportune time and take revenge. What other goal could we possibly have?

Personally, I would count it a victory if we were able to destroy or turn their buffer states in the course of the war, even if they themselves survive it. To break their power requires dismantling their alliance bloc. So far as I can see (from the limited information I have), their remaining allies are slavishly loyal, so the only alternative is to break them. Start taking those realms apart until they seek terms and then force them to turn on the Empire. Keep the territory you take from them, then as part of the peace help them get territory back at the Empire's expense. My character (who is admittedly from Hammarsett  :)) would have liked to see Barad Gardor go to Hammarsett while the northern alliance offered to help Coria claim part or all of the Duchy of Eaglin in recompense. Unfortunately Eston's short-sightedness (again, character perspective) means that that option is basically gone. Darka could easily take a duchy or more off of Talerium then offer to help them take Cagil and Calis. If you askme that's the only way we come out of this war on top. Otherwise, if Carelia ends up getting knocked out of the war, CE's enemies won't get an opportunity this good for a *very* long time.

Carpe Diem, that's what I say.

Geronus

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Re: The Current War
« Reply #182: March 24, 2011, 12:54:00 AM »
Yes, we are their ally and our military prowess has at times increased the strength of the "empire" that CE may maintain but we can't be said to be a puppet realm of them. Many of our CE allies were upset that we signed a treaty to get us out of the war and can no longer support them in their trans-continental fight.

As to this, the day Coria turns against the Empire at anything less than gunpoint is the day Laszlo eats his boots  ;D.

I admit I was surprised to come away from reading this thread with the impression that Coria will actually stay neutral. I had assumed that the scope of your agreement was limited to the northern allies and that the Corian army would be fighting Carelia alongside the Cagilans in no time. It is clear that Coria doesn't take orders from the Empire, but can you honestly say that Coria's alliance with CE isn't ironclad? If I were in power in Coria, I'd be all too aware of the possible consequences of letting my relationship with the Empire be anything less than friendly. After all, look at what they did to your predecessors. You might not be willing to fight to the death for them, but you wouldn't have made peace if you weren't getting militarily hammered, and I confidently predict that Coria will once again be one of the Cagilan Empire's allies in their next conflict, assuming we all live to see the day (and I think we will).

Perth

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Re: The Current War
« Reply #183: March 24, 2011, 02:15:28 AM »
My character (who is admittedly from Hammarsett  :)) would have liked to see Barad Gardor go to Hammarsett while the northern alliance offered to help Coria claim part or all of the Duchy of Eaglin in recompense. Unfortunately Eston's short-sightedness (again, character perspective) means that that option is basically gone. Darka could easily take a duchy or more off of Talerium then offer to help them take Cagil and Calis.

You don't understand. These things were offered time and again and outright refused time and again. I practically offered the Duchy of Eaglin to Coria on a silver platter several times, and they did not want it. Darka also simply refuses to consider taking territory from Talerium again and again after it was repeatedly being brought up.

You're completely right. The best way to take out the power of CE is to deconstruct their power bloc, but the "short-sightedness of Eston" is not the reason it isn't happening exactly that way. In fact, the whole point of the Eston-Coria treaty is to begin the process of giving Coria an alternative ally to the CE.

It remains to be seen if anything will work out they way we hope it will. This war could still definitely go either way; it's actually quite fun. It's one of the first wars on Atamara in YEARS that you pretty much automatically know the eventual outcome by the day it starts.
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Sacha

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Re: The Current War
« Reply #184: March 24, 2011, 08:11:42 AM »
There is more to the noble way that just grabbing land wherever you see it. Eston, having little in the way of honor and dignity, would not understand such things ;)

johnny Hammarberg

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Re: The Current War
« Reply #185: March 24, 2011, 08:25:29 AM »
I have to disagree when it comes to the war having a clear outcome in advance, history tells us otherwise as more then once have unseen things occurred that swayed the winds of war towards the designated winner(s).

The unholy alliance that defeated Hasland was one of the first and it came to be a surprise for all involved when the alliance formed and turned against Hasland, the fall of Norland is also an good example on how things can change as they were to expand by getting regions for free but in the end they killed them self! Anything can happen and all it takes are acts of a new ruler or someone who decides to switch side...

What makes this war fun is that all realms are involved so the possibilities that something will happen is greater then ever before.
In war, truth is the first casualty.  ~Aeschylus

GoldPanda

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Re: The Current War
« Reply #186: March 24, 2011, 10:00:10 AM »
The Cagilan Empire functions very much like a real Empire, particularly in the manner that they create and maintain client states to secure their borders. Coria and Talerium are two such client states.

This is factually untrue. Talerium was one of the original realms. How could it have been created by CE?

You would know this if you did a little research first:
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Original_Realms_Project#Atamara
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De-Legro

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Re: The Current War
« Reply #187: March 24, 2011, 11:41:54 AM »
Semantics. To create a client state doesn't necessarily mean they created the realm, just that they set the realm up as a client state. You can do this to an existing realm
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Geronus

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Re: The Current War
« Reply #188: March 24, 2011, 01:17:30 PM »
Precisely. The "create" language was aimed at Coria anyway. I'm well aware that Talerium has been around forever. However, I maintain that they are a client state of the Cagilan Empire.

johnny Hammarberg

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Re: The Current War
« Reply #189: March 24, 2011, 04:08:32 PM »
Here I must come to the defence of Talerium, they are a totally independent realm and has been so for as long as I can remember.
In war, truth is the first casualty.  ~Aeschylus

Sacha

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Re: The Current War
« Reply #190: March 24, 2011, 07:50:38 PM »
Meh... that didn't stop them from following CE around like a good pet :P

jaune

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Re: The Current War
« Reply #191: March 24, 2011, 09:45:34 PM »
oh boy, when i learn to stay out from this thread?

I ofcourse know that Talerium values CE more important ally than Darka. I know we could crush Talerium with Eston and BoM and make our life a bit easier... for a while.

But the main thing is, KK have said to Captain that Darka will honor our treaty that it will not use their lands to attack Cagilan Empire and Talerium have promised to secure our border from Cagilan Empires attacks... they Always have. What it would make KK and Darka look? First Talerium protects our border for years, and next second Darka breaks everything and attacks them? Darka doesnt have too many friends... and it really wants to keep those who are.

No, even thought we arent each others lap dogs, we are still allies. We have some good history together and we have some bad history together... time will show what kind of future we will have together.

About destroying Cagilan Empire... we can destroy their income, their infrastructure... then we can start colonies where ever we wish.

If all goes well, this war will last propably over year easily. Darka prolly have most gold stocked on its pockets on whole continent, their regions arent threatened... they can keep this going for several years if needed... time will show how peoples nerves will stand this. Carelia is ofcourse the one who gets biggest hits on "our side". How long Tara feels just defending CE? I bet they are itching already to attack Carelia... that would ofcourse make CArelias situation pretty hard, but it would also mean very wide border to defend for Tara.

Indeed intresting times.
~Violence is always an option!~

Geronus

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Re: The Current War
« Reply #192: March 24, 2011, 10:14:52 PM »
About destroying Cagilan Empire... we can destroy their income, their infrastructure... then we can start colonies where ever we wish.

If all goes well, this war will last propably over year easily. Darka prolly have most gold stocked on its pockets on whole continent, their regions arent threatened... they can keep this going for several years if needed... time will show how peoples nerves will stand this. Carelia is ofcourse the one who gets biggest hits on "our side". How long Tara feels just defending CE? I bet they are itching already to attack Carelia... that would ofcourse make CArelias situation pretty hard, but it would also mean very wide border to defend for Tara.

Indeed intresting times.

Darka's gold and secure borders are all well and good for Darka, but small consolation to the rest of us  ;).

I don't think that after however many weeks or months of looting we'll have high enough sympathy anywhere in the Empire to run a CTO. And if Tara starts in on Carelia, I predict a swift end to their participation in the war. They're having enough trouble handling the Empire alone. Sure Tara's got long borders, but so does Carelia, and most of Tara's borders are with them or are 'safe' borders with their allies CE and Coria. They only have four regions that border any other realm, which is yet another reason why letting Coria weasel out of the war was an epically bad idea (*cough* opinion, not fact, before Perth strangles me  :) ).

johnny Hammarberg

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Re: The Current War
« Reply #193: March 25, 2011, 10:55:23 AM »
We can speculate all we want and I sure want as many ideas as possible posted in this thread so I can look back later on and say... what? Not a single one predicted this :)

We have seen wars turning its tide in less then a day before and instead of getting the predicted or so call obvious outcome something happened that no one thought of or the stronger part actually lost due to bad tactics. This war is however a promising one and I am sad that I cant view it from the eyes of a CE player but I guess they must be excited as well now that their strength and cunning will be put to a real test.

As for being able to do a successful CTO, its easy even if the region itself is looted and burnt beyond recognition, just let the one who start the CTO being one from a realm that hasnt looted that much...I guess The Barony will be out of the question ;)

Much can still happen thou and who knows maybe the next colony will be founded in Sale *Sordnaz will however flee with all mead before that happends*
In war, truth is the first casualty.  ~Aeschylus

jaune

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Re: The Current War
« Reply #194: March 28, 2011, 01:19:05 PM »
There was big battle at Calis. Looks like northern realms were able to cause some damage before they got beaten at Calis(this based on income drop of CE at statistics).


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