The Current War

[Indirik]

I have to agree with Perth on this one. Eston has just been fighting on a different front than Darka.

[Perth]

I have to agree with Perth on this one. Eston has just been fighting on a different front than Darka.

Yeah, I mean both Darka and Eston have been fighting plenty. I've never said Darka wasn't fighting. They might not have been fighting WHERE I wanted them to (and vice-versa) but I wouldn't ever say they haven't been fighting.

[jaune]

Hoh, IF Darka would just wanted to benefit from this war, it would have attacked Talerium or Eston.

Both realms are important to Darka, thus is the reason why they have been trying to stay away from their conflict as much it has been possible... Sure there are Darkans who shout "Off with their heads!" which ever realm name is mentioned.

But tbh, relations with both, Eston & Talerium are kind of uneasy, mainly cause Eston dont like us to stay away from Talerium and Talerium cause they face Darkan army when they enter to Eston.

But, iḿ sure unless something dramatic happens, both "allies" will stay...

-Jaune

[Revan]

Treaty of Strombran

Oh man, just saw the treaty Carelia signed with CE. Feels wrong for Serpaentists to have a question mark over them because of Nathan. Not our fault he turned out to be Leta's greatest sycophant. An exception rather than the rule, truly.

I love how Leta's initial populist justification for war - CE's alleged pronouncements against Magna Serpaensism and wish to 'dominate' Carelia - have not only come to pass, but have now come at an additional cost of two thirds of Carelia! Fair play, it was a bold gambit and maybe people should make more of them to shake things up a bit, but I still can't believe how Carelia started that war with her eyes wide open.

Now that it's over though, anyone in the know want to tell me whether all that going on with CE was actually real? Was Carelia about to get done over in a three way between Caergoth, Suville and CE before Leta promised Caergoth/Suville the earth or where those just manufactured fears? Malice will never believe Leta was right in a million years IC, but I'd love to know OOC whether Leta was justified or not!

[Indirik]

Yes. Yes, she was.

[Dante Silverfire]

Justified? Well...depends on perspective.

From CE's perspective of course, no one taking power from them is justified no matter the reason. And since the winners write the history books (as that treaty shows) CE will always be right.

[Indirik]

Any history that CE would write would be an IC history. Revan was asking for an OOC viewpoint. The OOC fact is that, yes, CE did threaten to become involved in the southerner's war, if Carelia didn't stop the war. "End it now, or we'll step in and end it for you, and you won't like it", to paraphrase things. Carelia was politically adept enough to use that threat of meddling to turn Suville and Caergoth to her side, and start the war. Unfortunately the southerners weren't up to it militarily. (I've heard several different viewpoints on what went wrong. I have no idea which one is right. Maybe all of them?)

Now, whether that makes for valid IC justification, I have no idea. I'm not familiar with the exact details of the situation as it existed before the war started. Bedwyr could probably answer it better than I, as he was there in Carelia at the time.

[GoldPanda]

Yes. Yes, she was.

Liar, liar, pants on fire.

Since this is an OOC forum, and not the Indirik family's personal IC propaganda machine, I'll just go ahead and confirm, OOCly, that CE had NO plans to attack Carelia. CE is not so arrogant to plan for a two front war, and its target was the northern realms. CE was already mobilizing against Eston before Talerium declared war on Eston, when Carelia stabbed CE in the back.

If anything, CE was hoping that Carelia and Caergoth-Suville would stop fighting, so that the entire south would unite and finally crush the uppity northerners. CE was saber-rattling at Caergoth-Suville to try to pressure them to sign a peace deal with Carelia, because its leaders were worried that Carelia seemed to be losing. Yes, CE was playing the part of a bully, but it was a bully on behalf of Carelia. Those in the know in Caergoth and Suville can confirm this.

So, yeah, CE left itself right open on the diplomatic front, exerting pressure on Caergoth-Suville right when the northern realms were painting CE as a bully, and Carelia was promising two duchies to Caergoth-Suville in exchange for ripping two duchies out of CE. CE was trying to help exactly the realm that was trying hardest to destroy it.

That's why there was so much outrage when Carelia jumped on the anti-CE bandwagon. There was definitely a sense of betrayal there.

CE's nobles hated Magna Serpaensism due to their experiences fighting Falasan, but there was an uneasy ceasefire after they fled to Carelia. I'd like to note that CE did not do anything while more and more Serpaensist lords were appointed in Carelia, but you can bet that CE was keeping tabs on you. Nathan just threw a torch into the tinder-box that is anti-MS sentiment.

[GoldPanda]

"End it now, or we'll step in and end it for you, and you won't like it",

That's pretty much what Famine said, except he said it to the leaders of Caergoth and Suville.

Kind of an important difference.

[Indirik]

If anything, CE was hoping that Carelia and Caergoth-Suville would stop fighting, so that the entire south would unite and finally crush the uppity northerners. CE was saber-rattling at Caergoth-Suville to try to pressure them to sign a peace deal with Carelia, because its leaders were worried that Carelia seemed to be losing. Yes, CE was playing the part of a bully, but it was a bully on behalf of Carelia. Those in the know in Caergoth and Suville can confirm this.

... which is pretty much what I said. CE was interfering in southern politics. Which you have so kindly detailed for us. Thanks for proving the point so nicely for me.

Now, apparently I had it backward on who's side CE was stepping in. (Not surprising since I wasn't actually down in Carelia.) It actually makes more sense the way you tell it. Carelia used CE's threatened military intervention (which is what saber-rattling is, even if you secretly have no intention of acting on it) to rally Caergoth and Suville to war against CE. ... because CE was threatening to interfere in the southern war.

[Indirik]

Kind of an important difference.

It makes more sense that it would be against Caergoth and Suville. But overall, it really makes no difference. Carelia's rallying point for the war was not "CE is going to destroy Carelia", it was "CE is meddling in our affairs, let's show them we won't stand for it."

[GoldPanda]

It makes more sense that it would be against Caergoth and Suville. But overall, it really makes no difference. Carelia's rallying point for the war was not "CE is going to destroy Carelia", it was "CE is meddling in our affairs, let's show them we won't stand for it."

I thought that was Leta's justification as well... Except that's not what Revan just said. He explicitly said that Leta's justification was "CE is going to gang up on us with Caergoth and Suville. Let's get them before they get us."

So before Revan said anything, I would have agreed with you. Now that he shared that bit of information, which side CE was bullying for becomes important, because it's the difference between Leta telling the truth and lying.

[GoldPanda]

Now that it's over though, anyone in the know want to tell me whether all that going on with CE was actually real? Was Carelia about to get done over in a three way between Caergoth, Suville and CE before Leta promised Caergoth/Suville the earth or where those just manufactured fears? Malice will never believe Leta was right in a million years IC, but I'd love to know OOC whether Leta was justified or not!

So, in other words, no, no she was not.

[Indirik]

I thought that was Leta's justification as well... Except that's not what Revan just said. He explicitly said that Leta's justification was "CE is going to gang up on us with Caergoth and Suville. Let's get them before they get us."

Rereading what he posted, I see what you mean. But that doesn't make any sense. It doesn't match anything I've ever heard before, including straight from the players of the Kindon and Bedwyr families. Something's not making sense here.

[Forbes Family]

What doesn't make sense is that if Leta was saying "CE is meddling in our affairs... let's go get them" why would they?

If the threats would have worked they would have won the war with Caergoth and Suville... Why would they throw that away and gamble on taking out the CE? TBH I believe it was a lot of ooc garbage going on and they paid the price for it.