The Current War

[Dante Silverfire]

You can't actually push the diplomacy buttons! That means there is no way you could have any influence over the diplomacy of your realm at all!! Haha! You unpowerful nobody!

Fine, be that way:

1. Everyone in my duchy assign to this new army I made.
2. Assign myself as Marshal
3. Orders: "Everyone assign your men to murderous, and rally in Eston."
4. ? ? ? ? ?
5. Profit.

It's exactly that guarantee that's the issue. It all comes down to this: if it's not the ruler that agrees, it's worthless. If you really have the pull to get the ruler to agree, then get it, then come talk.

Realm's on Atamara don't have Rulers, they have puppets. Why do you think CE's Senate has so many strings attached to the ends of their fingers?

[Geronus]

Realm's on Atamara don't have Rulers, they have puppets. Why do you think CE's Senate has so many strings attached to the ends of their fingers?

My cynical bias against Atamara requires me to +1 this.

But, to the question at hand, I agree with Indirik. For one thing, I've been that Duke. Probably not as powerful, no, but let me put it to you this way - say you go to your Ruler with your super awesome ploy and he turns you down flat? What are you gonna do? Secede and completely blow up your realm? Rebel, and sort of blow up your realm? Sure you've got some leverage, but all the buttons you could push to really make your Ruler hurt involve hurting your realm too to some extent. Or a large extent, probably.

As another Ruler, a deal's not a deal until I hear it from a fellow Ruler, at least not a deal between realms. Anyone else and you don't know if they can back up what they're promising. If you think you had the leverage to get your ruler to agree to your plan, you should have had him contact your negotiating partners and state as much.

[Dante Silverfire]

My cynical bias against Atamara requires me to +1 this.

But, to the question at hand, I agree with Indirik. For one thing, I've been that Duke. Probably not as powerful, no, but let me put it to you this way - say you go to your Ruler with your super awesome ploy and he turns you down flat? What are you gonna do? Secede and completely blow up your realm? Rebel, and sort of blow up your realm? Sure you've got some leverage, but all the buttons you could push to really make your Ruler hurt involve hurting your realm too to some extent. Or a large extent, probably.

As another Ruler, a deal's not a deal until I hear it from a fellow Ruler, at least not a deal between realms. Anyone else and you don't know if they can back up what they're promising. If you think you had the leverage to get your ruler to agree to your plan, you should have had him contact your negotiating partners and state as much.

Who is to say my ruler doesn't okay what I say ahead of time, or tell me to say certain things myself on purpose so the "ruler" themselves isn't the one to say the thing?

Also, who said anything about a deal between realms?

[Penchant]

Also, who said anything about a deal between realms?

Whoever mentioned the need to change diplomacy.

[Dante Silverfire]

Whoever mentioned the need to change diplomacy.

Well changing diplomacy is not really necessary for the most part early on.

Meh, said too much already. Anyway, I'll leave it at this, and the north can go back to being the ones at fault for making sure no one has any fun for the next year.

[Geronus]

Who is to say my ruler doesn't okay what I say ahead of time, or tell me to say certain things myself on purpose so the "ruler" themselves isn't the one to say the thing?

Also, who said anything about a deal between realms?

If that's the case, why didn't you have your Ruler state that to the other Rulers in the first place?

As for plausible deniability, well, that will only get you so far. Rulers of enemy realms are hardly likely to commit themselves in writing to something underhanded if those letters could plausibly be used against them. Serious negotiations require serious negotiators, and there has to be an implicit understanding that the other guy is empowered to speak for his realm. Otherwise you're not making a deal with Coria, you're making a deal with the Duke of Barad Falas, which is a very different proposition.

[Dante Silverfire]

If that's the case, why didn't you have your Ruler state that to the other Rulers in the first place?

As for plausible deniability, well, that will only get you so far. Rulers of enemy realms are hardly likely to commit themselves in writing to something underhanded if those letters could plausibly be used against them. Serious negotiations require serious negotiators, and there has to be an implicit understanding that the other guy is empowered to speak for his realm. Otherwise you're not making a deal with Coria, you're making a deal with the Duke of Barad Falas, which is a very different proposition.

All I'm gonna say is that the people involved knew quite clearly who they were making a deal with.

[Geronus]

Doesn't sound like they felt the same way?

[Dante Silverfire]

Doesn't sound like they felt the same way?

They're just scared to have fun. I mean the deal was this: All of you turn on each other and fight. We'll leave you alone. The winner gets 10k from me and an alliance.

[Bedwyr]

As another Ruler, a deal's not a deal until I hear it from a fellow Ruler, at least not a deal between realms. Anyone else and you don't know if they can back up what they're promising. If you think you had the leverage to get your ruler to agree to your plan, you should have had him contact your negotiating partners and state as much.

This is true, as far as it goes.  The other side of the coin is that from the perspective of changing how the war plays out, the Duke of Barad Falas has a lot more actual ability to change things than the Ruler of Coria does, from a button-pushing/resource standpoint (obviously, I have no idea about the personal dynamics/loyalties involved).  Rulers are only as powerful as their vassals let them be.  Cut deals with the right vassals, and the Ruler is weakened.  Make enough of those deals, and they are crippled.

Accepting that reality is one of the reasons Arcaea did so well under Jenred, both internally and from a diplomatic standpoint.  This idea that nothing matters if it doesn't come from a Ruler is one of those "polite" fictions that a certain class of people on Atamara adhere to because they like it, just like the bans on assassinating Rulers and other Council members.  It's a really odd self-perpetuating phenomenon that hasn't been true in reality for at least four years, and I've been looking forward to someone proving it on AT the way Jenred and others proved it on the Far East.

[Geronus]

This is true, as far as it goes.  The other side of the coin is that from the perspective of changing how the war plays out, the Duke of Barad Falas has a lot more actual ability to change things than the Ruler of Coria does, from a button-pushing/resource standpoint (obviously, I have no idea about the personal dynamics/loyalties involved).  Rulers are only as powerful as their vassals let them be.  Cut deals with the right vassals, and the Ruler is weakened.  Make enough of those deals, and they are crippled.

Accepting that reality is one of the reasons Arcaea did so well under Jenred, both internally and from a diplomatic standpoint.  This idea that nothing matters if it doesn't come from a Ruler is one of those "polite" fictions that a certain class of people on Atamara adhere to because they like it, just like the bans on assassinating Rulers and other Council members.  It's a really odd self-perpetuating phenomenon that hasn't been true in reality for at least four years, and I've been looking forward to someone proving it on AT the way Jenred and others proved it on the Far East.

That depends on who goes to whom and what the nature of the deal being offered is. If the Duke is speaking for himself, as in "I will secede my Duchy under x conditions," that's one thing (for example). If some Duke approaches you and offers you a peace deal, you want to know why it's not the Ruler making the offer since the Duke doesn't have the button to do that. For the example Dante just gave, I know I'd be skeptical. He's a Duke in Coria. What proof does anyone have that he can speak for Tara and the Cagilan Empire? For that kind of deal, those are the only realms I care about; Coria is exceedingly small fry compared to them.

[Geronus]

They're just scared to have fun. I mean the deal was this: All of you turn on each other and fight. We'll leave you alone. The winner gets 10k from me and an alliance.

This is just a loser... Where's the gain for your negotiating partners? I admit it would be fun OOC and it would be nice to to have a war that CE doesn't butt into, but IC-wise it would be hard to justify turning on your allies for 10k gold and an alliance with... Coria. I mean come on, it's incredibly humiliating. "Dance, puppet, and ye shall be spared! Fight for my amusement, and the winner shall earn my favor! Bwahahahaha!"

Also, this is not what I was expecting. You were promising to do something CE wouldn't like or some such, which is why I said I'd eat my hat. I guess it's safe if this is all you had cooking. 

[Bedwyr]

That depends on who goes to whom and what the nature of the deal being offered is. If the Duke is speaking for himself, as in "I will secede my Duchy under x conditions," that's one thing (for example). If some Duke approaches you and offers you a peace deal, you want to know why it's not the Ruler making the offer since the Duke doesn't have the button to do that. For the example Dante just gave, I know I'd be skeptical. He's a Duke in Coria. What proof does anyone have that he can speak for Tara and the Cagilan Empire? For that kind of deal, those are the only realms I care about; Coria is exceedingly small fry compared to them.

If the Rulers of Tara and the Cagilan Empire approached you with any deal that resulted in your current allies being hosed...Wouldn't you be skeptical anyway?  Such a deal would last precisely as long as they needed it to in order for the rest of the north to be beaten bloody, and then you would be in an even worse position.  You would have no leverage to make them keep the deal, and treaties on Atamara (and, to be fair, anywhere in Battlemaster and in the real world) are merely worth the paper they are written on if you have no leverage.  Why would the Rulers of those realms approaching you make you feel any safer?  The only consideration I would have is whether you think you have a better chance of stalling now in the hope that something in the war changes, or stalling later in the hope that something causes the bloc to break up before they find a reason to smash you at their leisure.  Who does the offering is immaterial, because you wouldn't be in a position to hold them to their word no matter what they said.

The alliance with Coria vs CE or Tara is similarly meaningless.  Realms can, have, and will make "alliances" with people they fully intend to annihilate as soon as some condition has been fulfilled.

[Dante Silverfire]

If the Rulers of Tara and the Cagilan Empire approached you with any deal that resulted in your current allies being hosed...Wouldn't you be skeptical anyway?  Such a deal would last precisely as long as they needed it to in order for the rest of the north to be beaten bloody, and then you would be in an even worse position.  You would have no leverage to make them keep the deal, and treaties on Atamara (and, to be fair, anywhere in Battlemaster and in the real world) are merely worth the paper they are written on if you have no leverage.  Why would the Rulers of those realms approaching you make you feel any safer?  The only consideration I would have is whether you think you have a better chance of stalling now in the hope that something in the war changes, or stalling later in the hope that something causes the bloc to break up before they find a reason to smash you at their leisure.  Who does the offering is immaterial, because you wouldn't be in a position to hold them to their word no matter what they said.

The alliance with Coria vs CE or Tara is similarly meaningless.  Realms can, have, and will make "alliances" with people they fully intend to annihilate as soon as some condition has been fulfilled.

Can a Mod delete this please? I mean he's obviously ruining my plans by making obvious OOC information readily available in an OOC manner, which may convince those I'm negotiating with to not negotiate with me. (Just Kidding, this is all a joke)

This is just a loser... Where's the gain for your negotiating partners? I admit it would be fun OOC and it would be nice to to have a war that CE doesn't butt into, but IC-wise it would be hard to justify turning on your allies for 10k gold and an alliance with... Coria. I mean come on, it's incredibly humiliating. "Dance, puppet, and ye shall be spared! Fight for my amusement, and the winner shall earn my favor! Bwahahahaha!"

Also, this is not what I was expecting. You were promising to do something CE wouldn't like or some such, which is why I said I'd eat my hat. I guess it's safe if this is all you had cooking. 

Fine....I thought it was a great deal. I even had a surprise involved. Whoever won got to be my vassal. Seems pretty good to me. They may even get to eat at the same table as me during feasts. If I'm feeling good that day.

[Sypher]

haha. well, the war could use a shake up but most realms are pretty committed to their position. If any realm is going to change things up, I believe its going to be Suville or Caergoth.