The Current War

[Perth]

Yup. It's going to take Eston years to recover from all of this.... if it recovers at all. :O

Not going to lie though... if Darka and BoM get out of this unscathed I'll pretty pissed, especially Darka. Not because I want harm to Darka, but just because it wouldn't seem right for Eston to be the only victim of this war.


Anyways, looking forward is very interesting. The level of hegemony the Cagilans have now achieved on the island is unprecedented I think, even for them. All functioning resistance to their rule has been utterly shattered. And after the way this war has gone, I hardly think any of the Cagilan Bloc realms are going to be eager to start up the whole "Hey, let's band together to stop CE" train again any time soon.

Should be interesting things to see in the future.... or maybe just boring lol.

[jaune]

Only victim of this war?

Well, Darka and BoM have not lost any land, but you are now overlooking... Carelia, Hammarsett, Minas Ithil...

-Jaune

[Dante Silverfire]

Only victim of this war?

Well, Darka and BoM have not lost any land, but you are now overlooking... Carelia, Hammarsett, Minas Ithil...

-Jaune

Hammarsett was a completely different war that went on at the same time. Different casus belli, different primary participants (though many of the allies were the same.)

Minas Ithil was a completely different war as well, and primarily fought as a 1v1 civil war between Minas Ithil and Minas Leon (although Tara aided Minas Leon in the first couple weeks)

Carelia was the same war, but very much earlier. They were also the original aggressors. (even if they did have good casus belli)

[Indirik]

While they may have had different causes, they all were tied together inseparably with the main war. It's not possible to pull them apart completely.

[Geronus]

Hammarsett was a completely different war that went on at the same time. Different casus belli, different primary participants (though many of the allies were the same.)

Minas Ithil was a completely different war as well, and primarily fought as a 1v1 civil war between Minas Ithil and Minas Leon (although Tara aided Minas Leon in the first couple weeks)

Carelia was the same war, but very much earlier. They were also the original aggressors. (even if they did have good casus belli)

This, right here, is why we lost. That you would think of these as 'separate' wars is amazing to me.

[Dante Silverfire]

This, right here, is why we lost. That you would think of these as 'separate' wars is amazing to me.

You lost because the North chose to make them separate wars.

I consider them separate wars because I play in Coria. Coria HAS to view them as separate wars due to the treaties that we are bound by, and by our current and past diplomacy. Coria's surrender to Eston ended Coria's participating in the main war. Coria's subsequent treaty + border agreement bound Coria to not fight Eston or for Coria to join with its allies in fighting the war through Eston lands.

For all intents and purposes Coria has not been a participant in the "main" war since that date. Hammarsett however, chose to have Coria rejoin the war effort. But, since Coria was bound by treaty not to participate, they instead fought a separate war and conflict against Hammarsett with Hammarsett's primary ally being Minas Ithil.

If the North wanted to win, they would have not allowed Hammarsett to breach the agreement that kept Coria out of the conflict. Instead, Coria rejoin the conflict, destroyed a major northern alliance ally, and cornered Minas Ithil. (which quickly collapsed into civil war).

While yes they were tied together, the conflicts begun between different participants and were separated by different casus belli and intents. Just because the final alliances were the same does not mean they are the same war. (This is why Coria is not a participating member in the discussions for Eston's surrender terms to CE.)

[Geronus]

You lost because the North chose to make them separate wars.

I consider them separate wars because I play in Coria. Coria HAS to view them as separate wars due to the treaties that we are bound by, and by our current and past diplomacy. Coria's surrender to Eston ended Coria's participating in the main war. Coria's subsequent treaty + border agreement bound Coria to not fight Eston or for Coria to join with its allies in fighting the war through Eston lands.

For all intents and purposes Coria has not been a participant in the "main" war since that date. Hammarsett however, chose to have Coria rejoin the war effort. But, since Coria was bound by treaty not to participate, they instead fought a separate war and conflict against Hammarsett with Hammarsett's primary ally being Minas Ithil.

If the North wanted to win, they would have not allowed Hammarsett to breach the agreement that kept Coria out of the conflict. Instead, Coria rejoin the conflict, destroyed a major northern alliance ally, and cornered Minas Ithil. (which quickly collapsed into civil war).

While yes they were tied together, the conflicts begun between different participants and were separated by different casus belli and intents. Just because the final alliances were the same does not mean they are the same war. (This is why Coria is not a participating member in the discussions for Eston's surrender terms to CE.)

Three things.

One: Minas Ithil only joined the war BECAUSE we went back to war with Coria. No war with Coria, no Minas Ithil.

Two: At the time, Saeculo was obviously looking to get Coria back into the war surreptitiously in such a way that Coria wouldn't be at direct risk. As evidence consider his laughably ham-fisted attempt to send an army south to "visit relatives" on the Carelian border.

Three: Half the reason we went back to war with Coria is because we were getting nowhere on the western front. We thought a second front that pulled Tara, in particular, away from Cantril might allow for some progress on that front.

Too bad we were wrong. In truth the balance of forces was against us from the time that Carelia started losing and Caergoth and Suville exited the war. I suppose if Hammarsett had never declared war again on Coria we might have extended the stalemate on the western front, maybe even indefinitely, but now we'll never know. It was obvious that we weren't ever going to win the way things were going at the time, so we took a risk, one that initially seemed quite promising I might add. I never regarded the wars as separate, and neither I imagine did most of the northern allies. Our total lack of progress on one front is what suggested the idea of opening a second in hopes of making it into a war of movement again. Eston's narrow and provincial view of the conflict played a significant role in the course of the war, one that was highly detrimental in my opinion.

[Dante Silverfire]

One: Minas Ithil only joined the war BECAUSE we went back to war with Coria. No war with Coria, no Minas Ithil.

Of course. Which is why I stated they were Hammarsett's primary allies.

Two: At the time, Saeculo was obviously looking to get Coria back into the war surreptitiously in such a way that Coria wouldn't be at direct risk. As evidence consider his laughably ham-fisted attempt to send an army south to "visit relatives" on the Carelian border.

Of course. We wanted to fight, but stick to our treaties (unlike the North).

So we looked south for conflict. Makes sense to me, and Carelia was pretty much out of the war at that point.

I never regarded the wars as separate, and neither I imagine did most of the northern allies. Our total lack of progress on one front is what suggested the idea of opening a second in hopes of making it into a war of movement again.

THIS is the problem. This is the reason that Hammarsett had such terrible casus belli, and why Coria had to exact huge revenge on them for the action. You forced a war that you had no real reason to fight. Coria can't allow actions to stand when the reason for war given is essentially "We want to refound a realm in your lands that would see your eventual destruction."

If you want to rejoin the war with Coria, you should have just neutralized the treaty between Estona nd Coria and attacked us straight on. Actually you should have neutralized the war with Darka and Talerium as well and just opened up a huge front.

[Geronus]

THIS is the problem. This is the reason that Hammarsett had such terrible casus belli, and why Coria had to exact huge revenge on them for the action. You forced a war that you had no real reason to fight. Coria can't allow actions to stand when the reason for war given is essentially "We want to refound a realm in your lands that would see your eventual destruction."

Why is 'THIS' the problem? These factors only came into play because we lost. They were entirely irrelevant to the decision to go to war. We did have a reason to fight - the one I just gave you about opening a second front. Big picture, not small ball. If more people in the Northern Alliance had viewed the war this objectively we might have won. It was narrow thought processes like yours that handicapped realms like Darka and Eston and limited their impact on the war. They let their own interests trump the greater good and lost sight of the bigger picture. Hammarsett on the other hand did what it did because we thought it was the best chance to turn the larger war around, not because it was good for us. I won't deny that potential territorial gain would have been good for us, but it's not what drove the decision-making process. I could easily have played it safe and virtually guaranteed our survival by sticking with the status quo at the time:  Peace with Coria, tacit agreements with Tara. Personally, I am extremely glad I didn't do that regardless of the outcome. One, I think it was our best remaining chance to turn the war around. Two, I am willing to bet that all the players in Hammarsett, Tara, Coria and MI (at a minimum) had a hell of a lot more fun this way than if we'd aimed for and achieved an endless stalemate over Cantril.

Detente is bad for the game.

If you want to rejoin the war with Coria, you should have just neutralized the treaty between Estona nd Coria and attacked us straight on. Actually you should have neutralized the war with Darka and Talerium as well and just opened up a huge front.

I absolutely agree with you, 100%.

Unfortunately, that would have required both Eston and Darka's agreement, which didn't happen. Eston consistently acted only within their own narrow interests, one of which was sticking to that agreement with Coria despite the detrimental effect it had on their allies and the larger war. Darka on the other hand was kneecapped by Kostaja's stubbornness. I think I read somewhere that even his own councilors argued for attacking Talerium at one point, but he wouldn't accept their arguments, let alone those of his fellow rulers. For his part, Kerwin severely compromised his own ability to convince Darka to do any such thing when he made that separate peace with Coria. With that precedent set, what incentive did Darka have to stick their necks out?

You can argue with my strategic evaluation of the situation if you want to, but that's what drove Hammarsett's actions. As for you, if you're so convinced that Hammarsett's choices were a disaster, explain to me what the better course would have been, taking into consideration that:

1. Eston would never cancel it's treaty with Coria.

2. Darka would never agree to attack Talerium.

[Dante Silverfire]

Something first: My opinions as a player on an OOC level differ *drastically* from the IC opinions of my character as a Duke/Ruler/General of Coria during these times. Most of the answers from my previous post are based upon the IC perceptions of my character. If I look objectively at how I'd win the war from an OOC basis that will change my thoughts. I'll respond the rest of this post with my OOC opinions.

Two, I am willing to bet that all the players in Hammarsett, Tara, Coria and MI (at a minimum) had a hell of a lot more fun this way than if we'd aimed for and achieved an endless stalemate over Cantril.

I agree with this. But as I said above, character action and player fun shouldn't necessarily always be linked. Although in some cases its important. If I favored player fun purely over IC RP'ed actions, then I would have had Coria attack CE long ago. However, I have to play my character, not as a player.

Detente is bad for the game.

Agreed. But again, that's my OOC opinion. Most of my actions for any character are based solely upon what I know IC. I think an issue was that much of the basis for the original war (when Carelia started it) was an OOC understanding that it was now or never against CE.

You can argue with my strategic evaluation of the situation if you want to, but that's what drove Hammarsett's actions. As for you, if you're so convinced that Hammarsett's choices were a disaster, explain to me what the better course would have been, taking into consideration that:

1. Eston would never cancel it's treaty with Coria.

2. Darka would never agree to attack Talerium.

Okay, assuming that I have the power in game to control the actions of the Northern Alliance this is what I'd do under your given restrictions.

1. Don't attack Coria, and let Coria's agreement with Eston force the war to be a standoff at Cantril.
2. Negotiate peace with CE on neutral terms. (I believe that this would have been possible since it was just a standoff for real life months.)
3. Bide your time, and watch the diplomacy of the south. Nudge diplomacy into a war between Suville, Strombran, Caergoth, and Carelia. (with possible participation from CE and/or Tara)
4. The above conflict would have placed Tara and CE on opposing sides. Use that to drive a wedge in the CE, Tara alliance.
5. Ally the north with Coria (which was very possible under former conditions, a lot more difficult now)
6. Along with Coria attack south with the unified north while CE and Tara are split. However, don't attack both of them. Focus on war, and make it clear your intentions in the war. Not just "reduce the power of CE, or destroy CE". Attack either CE or Tara, while all of their allies are distracted. Tara would be easier, but CE would be just as susceptible.
7. Try and break the federation permanently by offering the other side an alliance in return for very favorable terms in whatever area of the map that they want.

That is how you beat CE. However, it all falls apart because I made the simple assumption I could unify the north's opinion. But if the north wanted to win, that's what they do. You don't just attack "CE's powerbase" with nameless intentions because that will provoke a huge backlash.

Perhaps just claim a single duchy (and state that at the beginning of the war), or something. That way they know what happens if they surrender. You can only afford to not make terms if you're like CE and can enforce whatever you want.

[Geronus]

Okay, assuming that I have the power in game to control the actions of the Northern Alliance this is what I'd do under your given restrictions.

1. Don't attack Coria, and let Coria's agreement with Eston force the war to be a standoff at Cantril.
2. Negotiate peace with CE on neutral terms. (I believe that this would have been possible since it was just a standoff for real life months.)
3. Bide your time, and watch the diplomacy of the south. Nudge diplomacy into a war between Suville, Strombran, Caergoth, and Carelia. (with possible participation from CE and/or Tara)
4. The above conflict would have placed Tara and CE on opposing sides. Use that to drive a wedge in the CE, Tara alliance.
5. Ally the north with Coria (which was very possible under former conditions, a lot more difficult now)
6. Along with Coria attack south with the unified north while CE and Tara are split. However, don't attack both of them. Focus on war, and make it clear your intentions in the war. Not just "reduce the power of CE, or destroy CE". Attack either CE or Tara, while all of their allies are distracted. Tara would be easier, but CE would be just as susceptible.
7. Try and break the federation permanently by offering the other side an alliance in return for very favorable terms in whatever area of the map that they want.

That is how you beat CE. However, it all falls apart because I made the simple assumption I could unify the north's opinion. But if the north wanted to win, that's what they do. You don't just attack "CE's powerbase" with nameless intentions because that will provoke a huge backlash.

Perhaps just claim a single duchy (and state that at the beginning of the war), or something. That way they know what happens if they surrender. You can only afford to not make terms if you're like CE and can enforce whatever you want.

Cogent and well reasoned. It's a good plan, though it could fall apart in any number of places even if you did manage to achieve unity in the north.

Unfortunately, the necessary political preconditions for this plan were not all in place at the time I made my decision. It's hard for me to remember exactly what was going on down south at the time, but Carelia was still alive and kicking (albeit definitely losing), Strombran had not yet been founded, and Caergoth was still in one piece if I recall correctly. Even if you advance the timeline in the south somewhat, I'm certain that most of the pieces you're playing with were not available.

Basically, it's easy to see all the parts necessary to your plan now. Back then, they mostly didn't exist. By the time they emerged from the fog of war, the die was already cast.

[Dante Silverfire]

Cogent and well reasoned. It's a good plan, though it could fall apart in any number of places even if you did manage to achieve unity in the north.

Unfortunately, the necessary political preconditions for this plan were not all in place at the time I made my decision. It's hard for me to remember exactly what was going on down south at the time, but Carelia was still alive and kicking (albeit definitely losing), Strombran had not yet been founded, and Caergoth was still in one piece if I recall correctly. Even if you advance the timeline in the south somewhat, I'm certain that most of the pieces you're playing with were not available.

Basically, it's easy to see all the parts necessary to your plan now. Back then, they mostly didn't exist. By the time they emerged from the fog of war, the die was already cast.

Any good plan can fall apart. They're only useful before the first battle begins.

However, much of the political situations needed to make such a plan successful were there. They were just hidden under the surface. You had to be a part of the CE alliance in order to see where the cracks were. My character knew about them, and made plans to use them if Coria was ever threatened.

King Kerwin was made aware of the cracks by my character which allowed him to trust Coria more. That's one of the reasons Coria and Eston grew closer together.

Its all irrelevant now. This plan wouldn't work anymore. Other plans would, but of course I can't reveal plans that would actually work, because then they wouldn't.

As to your point about preconditions. All of the preconditions that were *necessary* were available at the time when Merlin contacted the leaders of the Northern Alliance. Not all of the preconditions that would have been *wanted* were available, but the necessary ones were. That of course fell through. But hey, I'm playing a happy duke of a strong city.

[Gabanus family]

Eston's refusal to attack/betray Coria may however save/aid them in the future. Eston is not dead (and won't be) so only time will tell. But they have shown to be honourable and to honour their deals. They may very well outlive Darka and BoM.

[Dante Silverfire]

Eston's refusal to attack/betray Coria may however save/aid them in the future. Eston is not dead (and won't be) so only time will tell. But they have shown to be honourable and to honour their deals. They may very well outlive Darka and BoM.

This is also an important point.

Eston secured for themselves a strong potential ally in Coria. (Who is now stronger than Eston itself). Coria is also within the CE alliance, so while they aren't directly part of the terms discussion, they can advocate on behalf of Eston.

[jaune]

Well, when war began, south was with us. Tara was claiming to be only defencive... things blew up when Eston signed peace with Coria and south betrayed alliance. Until that, it was nice and good(Except other than Carelia, southern participation to war was pretty much just on the paper).

-KK