Dwilight Anthropology Project

[JPierreD]

Thanks, Raz, that's the spirit!

Are you going to update this link, then?
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Dwilight/Peoples_of_Dwilight

I was planning on gathering a little more info before actually start editing, and solving the previously said controversies, but we can do both at the same time.

Edit: Thought it would be interesting making too an "Ancient Peoples of Dwilight", with the legendary/historical stuff, separated from the more official and pretty much factual "Peoples of Dwilight". The first could be home of major controversies, while the second should be agreed pretty much by everyone, minus the madmen.

[Vellos]

We can't forget that Dwilight's geography differs vastly from Europe's. For that reason alone we can't apply the same population dynamics and expect to have logical results.

Europe is essentially one big peninsula. Spain and Portugal are separated from the northwest African coast by a small strait, thus allowing movement of the Moors into the Iberian peninsula. The English Channel separates the British Isles from the north coast of France. The northern tip of Denmark almost touches Scandinavia, and furthermore, the Vikings, who sailed to Greenland and Iceland, could just about swim across the North Sea to England. Oh yeah, and Turkey is quite close to Greece, something that has always been featured in Mediterranean history with the many conflicts between Greeks and Persians, Greeks and Trojans, Greeks and Turks, and so on.

Anyway, that's all not true on Dwilight. Sure you might get some more pronounced isolation on the main bodies of the east and west, like Echiur, Darfix in the west, and Flowrestown, Donghaiwei, and Springdale in the east. And those places look a lot larger and separated from any bodies of water than Europe as a whole (For them, inland pretty much means Austria, Hungary, and Switzerland. Just about every other European country borders some body of saltwater.)

But when you get closer to the central areas, especially near the connecting islands or Valkyrja, then you'd definitely see a lot of mixing. I wouldn't be surprised if the peoples of Eidulb, Golden Farrow, Libidzedd, Port Nebel, Port Raviel, Sallowtown, and Mimer were indistinguishable. They might differ from the ones who crossed via Valkyrja, and it's plausible that they would differ from the southerners. However, I believe that the movement patterns of humans based only on the current Dwilight map, suggests a much more mixed central population, with pockets of isolated groups in the edge regions.

Agreed, generally. I think the people of Sallowtown might be different, given their being a spur off of the main trade routes with the geography implying a desert. But still not a massive difference. But the major central cities and their outlands should be ethnographically similar.

Major ethnic variations would occur off of the spurs from the central routes (Northnastrond could conceivably have a clear ethnic identity, the Zuma, Forland, Madina/Maroccidens).

In Maroccidens, I have assumed, basically, 3 major ethnic groups:
1. Colonial
2. Pirate
3. Various Indigenes

Colonial I identify as broadly the ethnicity of the central sea trade cities and their affiliated lands. Pirate would be the dominant Madinan ethnicity, and so also be prominent in Forland (especially Fissoa), southern trade cities, and Maroccidens. Indigenes might vary more widely, but I see them as having internal divisions meaningful only to themselves, while outsiders regard them as the "Zuma Coalition." Or just the Zuma.

[JPierreD]

Vellos, your division is interesting, but let me clarify some points:

1) Colonial: Are those who came from Springdale, Morek and Pian en Luries, in opposition to those who came from Madina?

2) Pirate: These would be the majority of the peoples from Madina, Fissoa and Aurvandil, with an at least considerable population in D'Hara, Caerwyn and Terran, right?

3) Various Indigenous: Only the Zuma? What about the Toprak Dwili/Gunthor and the Lurian, D'Haran, Northern Occidens, Mesoccidens, Maroccidens, Eichurian, Madinan and Forlandian naives?

[Glaumring the Fox]

Perhaps we should use South American colonial history as a template for Dwilight, a vast land of varying cultures colonized from the east by a vastly technologically superior and organized group of peoples from far off lands?

[JPierreD]

Sounds like a very good idea to me. It would explain the mostly low native Dwili population (except in the Lurian lands and perhaps in the North, but those can go as the Aztecs and Incas), and we can use an American parallel without having to use actual American cultures or ethnicities.

Ethnically I was thinking about the native peoples of the north Toprak as Scandinavian, Germanic and Slavic parallels, with Turkic/Mongol/Asian enclaves in the Dongeselands and Flow Peninsula, Mediterranean peoples around the Lurias and North African/Middle Eastern peoples in southern Forland, Madina and perhaps even Aurvandil. The Sallowsite Cape would go with Persian peoples.

[vonGenf]

Perhaps we should use South American colonial history as a template for Dwilight, a vast land of varying cultures colonized from the east by a vastly technologically superior and organized group of peoples from far off lands?

How is that different from Northern American colonial history?

[JPierreD]

Err... I did miss the "South" word, and took it as American. In any case, I don't think there should be any substantial differences between the two of them, we have pretty similar parallels in both sides of the Americas.

[vanKaya]

I think what is wrong with the Peoples of Dwilight page is that it is primarily northern and also seems to have an Everguard bias that makes it difficult for anyone else to role-play. I'd keep some of those elements while broadening other things to make it more applicable to Dwilight in general.

Here's some ideas I was thinking of the top of my head.

Marromen- Otherwise known as Woodfolk. It is from here that the name Maroccidens derives ( occident being a modern addition that the civilizers brought). These people lived mainly in the dense Marwood where it was easier to hide from the monster hordes. The coast of present day "old Maroccidens" was largely uninhabited due to it's openness and thus vulnerability. The Marromen existed in small tribes that warred occasionally but were also largely cooperative.

Ostro-Marromen- similar in culture and traditions to the Marromen of the forest, their were slight differences the biggest of which being that the Ostro-Marromen lived in the western town flats of present day Maroccidens. Also, while the Marromen lived seasonally in temporary villages, the O-M lived in more permanent settlements.

Ooc: something like the early Germanic tribes of the black forest (but in a jungle)

I'll go into less detail for the rest since I wanna see what people think but:

Messocidens:

Eastern Mesoccidens: the Phantarians, also wood folk something something. Perhaps an archer civilization that lived in tree forts? (stop me if I'm getting a little fantastical haha)

Western Mesoccidens: Eichurian civilization, quite advanced, lawful and scientific in their own right, perhaps something like Babylon

Madina, the Fissoan Peninsula:

I'll let someone from the area offer a potential name but I was thinking a particularly unadvanced culture similar to early Australian aborigines ( no offense). Originated on the madinan isle and colonized the surrounding areas quite slowly. Contrary to Madina's current seafaring history, the culture before them were poor seafarers and mainly kept to the coast. They expanded somewhat into the Fissoan area and even less so onto the Candiels Peninsula.

Modern day Greater Luria

Unlike the Marromen and who hid from monster hordes and the Ostro-Marromen and Phantaraians who built their homes out of harms way, the ancients of the Lurian area consisted of a dozen or so organized tribes that actively faught the monsters in quite bloody affairs. A very warlike and proud people that eventually went extinct after a series of very difficult years of monster surges immidietly prior to colonization ( ie the arrival of pian en lurie) ( similar in my mind to an Iroquois confederacy)

Darfix and surrounding plains:

Steppeners ( the name assigned by the Peoples of Dwilight page): I envision them as a Mongol likes people who were nomadic, tamed and herded horses and were excellent riders.


I won't go into more detail now since I feel like you guys get what I'm aiming for but the remaining tribes in my mind would be one or two on the east side of north occidens, a viking like civilization around Valkrya, a civilization based around donghaiwei (perhaps based somewhat on ancient china ie. Relatively advanced society, organized, scientific) and a mountain people around balances retreat.

Ideas, criticisms, suggestions?

[vonGenf]

a civilization based around donghaiwei (perhaps based somewhat on ancient china ie. Relatively advanced society, organized, scientific)

See this:

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Morek#The_Manifestation_of_Morek

In the Donghaiwei area, it is pretty established RP that the natives were violent folks and the Easterners brought civilization to the place.

The chinese references are exists (Huanghai has silk description in its page description).

[JPierreD]

Indeed, it has a heavy bias, let's try to solve that, and correct some of the contradictions.

On what you've proposed, ideas, counter-ideas and commentaries:

Marromen - Like the Goths, divided in Visigoths and Ostrogoths? How about Wesimarromen and Austromarromen for less obvious reference? Wesigothi and Autrogothi are other forms to address those peoples.
Or... we could go for even less obvious references, and give them an earlier separation from the Goth tribes: Thervingi and Greuthungi. The first conveniently may mean "forest people", while the second may mean "steppe dwellers" or "people of the pebbly coasts", according to the Wikipedia. That would make the Woodsfolk the Marvingi or Therfolk (the first can be used by the colonizers and the second by themselves, like the Dwili/Gunthor). The Townsfolk would be Marthungi or Greutfolk.
Question: Ethnically, how would they look? Perhaps like the Riffian Berbers, who had a fair share of Vandal (East Germanic, as the Goths) mixing. This would suggest a migration from from the Mesoccidens, mixing with a previously Berber-like Maroccidens population.
What about Old Maroccidens and Candiels Peninsula, btw? A Berber-like ethnicity, though with much reduced population, would make sense in the previously given context.
Feel free to discard any/all of the ideas, though, same with the ones that will follow. These are suggestions.

Phantarians: Is there any historical parallel to tree forts? If not, I'd rather keep it more realistic, but that is just a personal opinion.
Ethnically I'd go with something Germanic, source of the "Goths" of Maroccidens.

Eichurians: Sounds good. Any ideas on ethnicity? Middle-Eastern Mesopotamian could work, unless there are better ideas...

Madina-Candiels-Fissoa: Sounds good to me. Perhaps something like Tuareg ethnicity?

Greater Luria: We did have a different idea on the Lurians. For a start, unlike in many other places, the Lurian natives did not dissapear, far from it. They would make up around 80% of the population of the Lurian Kingdoms, with only the other 20% made from immigrants and mixtures.
My ideas on ethnicity were about having 2 major Lurian groups.
* Phrycian: The ancient Luria, based around Poryatu. The peoples are very civilized and amiable, and they are the cradle of the Lurian civilization. The first accounts on the "gentle" Lurians were based on these peoples. They are ethnically Hellenic.
* Euscheans: The classical Luria, based around the Euschean/Lurian Sea, it covers Askileon, Giask and Shinnen. Though more militaristic than the Phrycians, they have a strong cultural heritage from them, with very related and similar languages. Originally from Askileon, they expanded aggressively their culture to all the inner coast of "their" Sea. They are ethnically Latin.
* Southerners: Made from two very different groups, none of them related with the Lurians. One group is the Madinian natives of the forests, and the other is a group of unknown origin (legends say they origin from a now-sunken volcanic island in the south-west) which used inhabit all the southern coast, from Drowentown to Herle and Irvington. Both ethnicities need to be defined.
* Westerners: Around Aveston, west of the Smokey Hills, there is a small part of the land which was colonized by the natives of the Tomb Island, mixing with the now extinct, as a separated ethnicity, local natives.
* Northerners: The Dwili accounted by the early historians in Pian en Luries are composed by the three peoples inhabiting to its north. Those are the Salowsitte, Divide and Flow Dwili.

Steppeners: Good idea expanding the Steppemen concept. Summing it up, they would be divided in 3 groups, which could profit from more original names that the ones here given.
* Aquiteurs: Ethnically Franks, would occupy zones in the regions of Mergrathor, Asurbanipal, Tenith, Jorradith, Gaston/Gaston Farms, Forguthrie, Zeret and Aquitain.
* Gelenes: Ethnically Germanic, would occupy Sabadell and Gelene/Gelene Outskirts.
* Darfixers: Ethnically Nordic, would occupy the lands west of K'dira, Crotona, Eeborngul, Raden, Kargen and Tenith.

Valkyrians: Perhaps it would be interesting expanding the concept already made, on Saxon/Viking civilization, getting a more original name.

Dongeselands: Culturally, something like ancient China sounds good, but ethnically I'd go with something more Turkic or Mongolic, not to bring way too much contrast into the mix.

Balance's Retreat: Perhaps some Scottish-Celtic parallels in here?

Libidizedd Island: Culturally Japanese, as described by the Everguardian Eddons, but ethnically something different. Still not sure which ethnics, but Japanese would make very little sense in the context.

Thoughts, complaints, critics, ideas?

[Indirik]

I think what is wrong with the Peoples of Dwilight page is that it is primarily northern and also seems to have an Everguard bias that makes it difficult for anyone else to role-play. I'd keep some of those elements while broadening other things to make it more applicable to Dwilight in general.

That's probably because one of the founders of Everguard was *very* active in developing that kind of information. As a result, nearly all the information he generated was centered around Everguard and its place on the island. Despite the fact that Everguard as a powerhouse was very short-lived, nearly all of what he wrote was from the viewpoint of "Everguard as an everlasting world power". The player was very talented and creative, and knew a lot about how to make his pages attractive, with substantial content.

[Indirik]

Libidizedd Island: Culturally Japanese, as described by the Everguardian Eddons, but ethnically something different. Still not sure which ethnics, but Japanese would make very little sense in the context.

Well, as Astrum has been the only realm to have ever possessed the island, and my character has been the only duke of the region, I think I can speak with some authority in this one. There has never, ever been any RP associated with Libidizedd (at elast formt hose that have actually lived there) that would indicate that the island has any form of Japanese culture associated with it. The bits of RP that have been done have held mostly to the classical British/European style of culture.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Furthermore, the only naming theme that matches anything remotely Japanese would be the two regions southwest of Unterstrom (Incidentally the only modern German-themed places).

[Ramiel]

another source of could be info is:

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/West_Continent/Background_Story_Proposals

[JPierreD]

Indirik: Good, we cannot invent everything, so we tend to grab from what has already been written. Since the only culture associated with the Libidizedd Island I had read (check the references) had been the one described by Everguard, I took that. It's very good that those who actually play in those regions are the ones who get to decide in what world their characters are living in.
How would you consider the inhabitants of Libidizedd Island, culturally and ethnically? What historical parallels would you give (something more specific than British/European if possible, for that ranges from pre-Roman Britain to the Victorian Empire)?
For your contact with SA, perhaps you could have a notion of what the Corsanctum nobles think of the Mimer Peninsula, how they envision it?

Ramiel: I saw that, but only one of those proposals seemed to go forward.
This one http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/West_Continent/Background_Story_Proposals#Submitted_by_Devercia_with_help_from_Shenron.2C_and_Nosferatus_banner_contest_winners
As seen here: http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/The_History_of_Dwilight