Dwilight IC and OOC updates and news!

[Ironkrieg]

Surely the path is a "religion" in the BM sense in the same way Buddhism is a "religion" in the real life sense? Both are actually philosophies about the way life should be lived and what constitutes a successful life. But the followers of these “religions” follow them at the cost of following a more mainstream religion with afterlife and other beliefs. Therefore it makes sense to me that the Manifest Path is classed as a religion.

[Indirik]

Tom has stated that eastern philosophical religions have no place on Dwilight. Not only that, he has gone a bit farther, and even defined that religions should have some European style/flavor. That is why the Mayan/Aztec-based Blood Cult was not founded on Dwilight. So, no, you are not allowed free reign to do whatever you want on Dwilight, like you are on other islands.

Also, SMA is not just a "starting point" for Dwilight. It is a continuing, and ongoing, guideline for the types of things that are acceptable on the island. Using it as a starting point, and then removing all restriction after that, is rather pointless, as the guidelines would immediately become void.

IMHO, it is not enough for an organization to simply acknowledge that gods exist in order to be considered a religion in game mechanics terms. A religion should be devoted to the worship and promotion of those gods. (Whether you are sincere or not is of no consequence.) Otherwise, all you are is a glorified guild.

Anyway, I've had this discussion with Bedwyr via IRC, and we've pretty much agreed to disagree. I don't think it's a valid religion for Dwilight, and he does. (Although I would see no problem with it being on other islands.)

[Shizzle]

So are 'eastern' priciples outlawed as well? Looking at the many religions that worship man-shaped gods (antropomorfic deities)... Antropomorfism is an eastern developement, before it was accepted by the Greeks.

Where do you drawn the line between 'eastern' and 'european' flavour? I am sure the whole european concept itself is not SMA

[Bedwyr]

I think the main reason I consider the Manifest Path a religion is that, to me, it takes the established facts of the BM world and runs with them.  SMA does not trump the facts of the BM world to me.

Does it match any real world Western religions?  I personally think of it as being very much like what the Norse religion was like if you took away the Aesir as "good guys" and lumped them in with the other supernaturals like the Jotun, and then added in a nice dose of order-worship.  But that's really beside the point.

Our characters live in a world where giant monsters and armies of the undead routinely walk the earth and try actively to destroy us.  They live in a world where the gates of Hell (or a reasonable simulacrum) open up on a semi-regular basis, and fire-breathing flying horrors that roast entire villages in an evening twist the very fabric of reality to destroy human resistance.  They live in a world where there are entities that display power on the level of gods...And all of those entities want to consume humans, including the Light which demanded blood sacrifices.

And not once has any entity manifested itself as humanity's protector, leaving aside the Light which can have serious issue taken with it.  There are extraordinarily hostile powers at work...And no unambiguously good ones.  How would anything like the Christian church continue to function in Battlemaster when there is proof positive that God is not protecting us from the unimaginable horrors?  That leaves out the main religion we are supposed to base SMA on.  What about the rest of the religions?  The ones that ascribe what we today call natural phenomena to various deities?  All of them tend to have protector deities that keep humans from being plagued by the worst monsters, and you could tell yourself that even if we were fighting monsters, it wasn't as bad as it used to be.

But it is.  Even in the most horrific past mythos of BM religions, there is nothing comparable to the horrors of the Third and Fourth Invasions that I have ever seen.  Certainly, nothing in recorded history is anywhere near that level of sheer terror.

Which others are starting to pick up on.  One of the main groups in the Manifest Path now is somewhat disillusioned followers of other gods who think either that the Path was a revelation from one on how they should live their lives in order to convince that god to return, or that the gods have abandoned us for various reasons, and can point to what has happened on Beluaterra as proof positive that the gods are no longer protecting us as they once did.

As for the eugenics bit: It's not Nazi-eugenics.  It is limited eugenics.  The two are not the same thing.  One of them has the mass killings and sterilization on people who are politically convenient.  The other merely forbids the breeding of those with obvious defects unless they can prove significant enough beneficial traits as to make it worthwhile, and puts the emphasis of procreation on improvement rather than on equitable distribution or various other schema.

[Geronus]

All of which perhaps makes this religion suitable for Beluaterra. Very suitable in fact, since all of the non-human forces it references are known *only* there. I am with Indirik though when it comes to its place on Dwilight. It seems far too modern to me, too much like modern political ideologies, with almost no trappings of anything I would consider religious. What exactly are your 'Priests'? What do they 'preach'? I disagree with the comparison to Norse religion since the Aesir aren't exactly a minor part of it - they're the heart of it. I do understand your point about humanity's reaction to monstrous and inhuman invasions, but wouldn't the continual defeats of the invaders reaffirm faith in the gods rather than destroy it?

Fortunately, my opinion doesn't matter  I can't say I like the Manifest Path very much and would be inclined to avoid it even on a non-SMA island, but it's a shared sandbox. You can build your castle over there in that corner, and I'll stay in mine.

[Indirik]

I think the main reason I consider the Manifest Path a religion is that, to me, it takes the established facts of the BM world and runs with them.  SMA does not trump the facts of the BM world to me.

Religion is not based on unequivocal facts, and hard scientific evidence. It is based on faith and belief.

Our characters live in a world where giant monsters and armies of the undead routinely walk the earth and try actively to destroy us.  They live in a world where the gates of Hell (or a reasonable simulacrum) open up on a semi-regular basis, and fire-breathing flying horrors that roast entire villages in an evening twist the very fabric of reality to destroy human resistance.  They live in a world where there are entities that display power on the level of gods...And all of those entities want to consume humans, including the Light which demanded blood sacrifices.

That is incorrect. I think you can find a rather large portion of the character in BattleMaster who do not hold that all supernatural powers want to destroy/consume humanity. Your character may believe this to be true, but I'd imagine he is in a *very* small minority.

And not once has any entity manifested itself as humanity's protector, leaving aside the Light which can have serious issue taken with it.

Again, incorrect. The Blood Stars have intervened on behalf of Sanguis Astroism many times. In fact, the aid of the Maddening Star was crucial in the most recent assault on Valkyrja. At least, so far as quite a bit of Sanguis Astroism is concerned. Just ask the Holy Prophet. He was there and declared that it was so. And the Maddening Star was bright and superior  in the sky, giving proof for all to see. Again, so far as the worshipers of the Blood Stars are concerned. In fact, some even believe that the current war was instigated by the Stars themselves to unify the church of Sanguis Astroism, and draw it together to prevent it from fracturing.

But again, these are all matters of Faith, and not scientific proof. Our characters believe them to be true.

...and can point to what has happened on Beluaterra as proof positive that the gods are no longer protecting us as they once did.

More likely, they followed false gods. If they believed in the true gods then obviously none of that would have happened to them. Poor, misguided heathens...

How would anything like the Christian church continue to function in Battlemaster when there is proof positive that God is not protecting us from the unimaginable horrors?

How do the Christian churches continue to function today without this proof? How did the Jewish faith survive during the holocaust? Or, pick any other religion and any incredibly destructive natural disaster. Are not all of these things proof positive that God doesn't give a damn about humans? I mean, if He was protecting us, then how would tragedies like the Holocaust have been allowed to happen? Or the World Trade Center attacks? Etc., etc., etc. ...

[Darkgrave]

Slight glitch with my sister being mad and using the same password, which she knows, for everything means I'm now playing as the Darkgrave Family rather than the *now deleted* von Ironkreigs.  Ah well. I get to be in Madina now where there is lots of fun to be had.... 

[Shenron]

I'm just annoyed that so many characters are repelled by Shin and him trying to put "The Creator" into everything. This god is pretty much perfect: he's powerful, callous, "loving", he demands pointless ceremonies and holds the division between nobles and commoners as sacred.

Dwilight nobles should dig this stuff. 

[Gustav Kuriga]

All of which perhaps makes this religion suitable for Beluaterra. Very suitable in fact, since all of the non-human forces it references are known *only* there. I am with Indirik though when it comes to its place on Dwilight. It seems far too modern to me, too much like modern political ideologies, with almost no trappings of anything I would consider religious. What exactly are your 'Priests'? What do they 'preach'? I disagree with the comparison to Norse religion since the Aesir aren't exactly a minor part of it - they're the heart of it. I do understand your point about humanity's reaction to monstrous and inhuman invasions, but wouldn't the continual defeats of the invaders reaffirm faith in the gods rather than destroy it?

Fortunately, my opinion doesn't matter  I can't say I like the Manifest Path very much and would be inclined to avoid it even on a non-SMA island, but it's a shared sandbox. You can build your castle over there in that corner, and I'll stay in mine.

Calling anything based on Buddhism too "modern" is naive in the extreme, seeing as Buddhism came about before Christianity.

Also, much of Medieval Christianity was based on eastern religions. For example, the idea of a heaven and hell comes from Zoroastrianism.

[Shenron]

Calling anything based on Buddhism too "modern" is naive in the extreme, seeing as Buddhism came about before Christianity.

Modern Buddhism, is far more congruent with the contemporary status quo than with the western religions, i.e. how the Buddhists aim for harmony rather than war etc

Actually I don't want to go into that, because theres very good points for many views and huge historical/philosophical discussion will erupt.

I'll just rest on the fact that Buddhism is too eastern.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Although I disagree with Tom's ruling and would prefer to just have everything from the time period rather than a specific geo-chronological position, if we are going by his judgement, then yes, Buddhism is not to be had as a religion on Dwilight. I do feel that if you merely made a philosophical guild that followed those beliefs, it would be fine.

[Shizzle]

Seeing how this is an argument between Moderators, I suppose only Tom can provide judgement. I think Dwilight will be less fun (for me) without the MP, and as well for several (many?) others, though.

So where can I have a char join the Manifest Path? Before Tom's lightning bolt might strike it

[Geronus]

Calling anything based on Buddhism too "modern" is naive in the extreme, seeing as Buddhism came about before Christianity.

Also, much of Medieval Christianity was based on eastern religions. For example, the idea of a heaven and hell comes from Zoroastrianism.

Who said it was based on Buddhism? No one did. Someone brought up Buddhism as an example of an actual religion that lacks divinities, they didn't say MP was based on it. If you're going to insult people, please at least read the thread more carefully.

I am not objecting to religions that are based on eastern religion or saying they are not SMA, as personally I feel that Sanguis Astroism is quite a bit more similar to Buddhism and other eastern traditions than to anything that came out of Western Europe. I am saying that I do not like *this* religion of the Manifest Path because it strikes me as being more ideological than theological. It reminds me of the great utopian political ideologies of the 20th century, such as Marxism and Facism, not of any actual religion with which I am familiar. THAT is what I meant by "modern".

[Chenier]

I think the main reason I consider the Manifest Path a religion is that, to me, it takes the established facts of the BM world and runs with them.  SMA does not trump the facts of the BM world to me.

Does it match any real world Western religions?  I personally think of it as being very much like what the Norse religion was like if you took away the Aesir as "good guys" and lumped them in with the other supernaturals like the Jotun, and then added in a nice dose of order-worship.  But that's really beside the point.

Our characters live in a world where giant monsters and armies of the undead routinely walk the earth and try actively to destroy us.  They live in a world where the gates of Hell (or a reasonable simulacrum) open up on a semi-regular basis, and fire-breathing flying horrors that roast entire villages in an evening twist the very fabric of reality to destroy human resistance.  They live in a world where there are entities that display power on the level of gods...And all of those entities want to consume humans, including the Light which demanded blood sacrifices.

And not once has any entity manifested itself as humanity's protector, leaving aside the Light which can have serious issue taken with it.  There are extraordinarily hostile powers at work...And no unambiguously good ones.  How would anything like the Christian church continue to function in Battlemaster when there is proof positive that God is not protecting us from the unimaginable horrors?  That leaves out the main religion we are supposed to base SMA on.  What about the rest of the religions?  The ones that ascribe what we today call natural phenomena to various deities?  All of them tend to have protector deities that keep humans from being plagued by the worst monsters, and you could tell yourself that even if we were fighting monsters, it wasn't as bad as it used to be.

But it is.  Even in the most horrific past mythos of BM religions, there is nothing comparable to the horrors of the Third and Fourth Invasions that I have ever seen.  Certainly, nothing in recorded history is anywhere near that level of sheer terror.

Which others are starting to pick up on.  One of the main groups in the Manifest Path now is somewhat disillusioned followers of other gods who think either that the Path was a revelation from one on how they should live their lives in order to convince that god to return, or that the gods have abandoned us for various reasons, and can point to what has happened on Beluaterra as proof positive that the gods are no longer protecting us as they once did.

As for the eugenics bit: It's not Nazi-eugenics.  It is limited eugenics.  The two are not the same thing.  One of them has the mass killings and sterilization on people who are politically convenient.  The other merely forbids the breeding of those with obvious defects unless they can prove significant enough beneficial traits as to make it worthwhile, and puts the emphasis of procreation on improvement rather than on equitable distribution or various other schema.

Obviously, the rogues are there to punish us for our sins, and we need to pray to God harder.

The accusations of witchcraft and deals with demons only made people more zealous, I doubt Christianity would have a harder time in a BM context than the real world one.

[Bedwyr]

That is incorrect. I think you can find a rather large portion of the character in BattleMaster who do not hold that all supernatural powers want to destroy/consume humanity. Your character may believe this to be true, but I'd imagine he is in a *very* small minority.

It is empirically true.  All supernatural entities that have provably intervened in the world want to consume humans.  The monsters eat us, the undead use our bodies, the Daimons eat us, and the Light required blood sacrifices.  Those are knowable facts.

Again, incorrect. The Blood Stars have intervened on behalf of Sanguis Astroism many times. In fact, the aid of the Maddening Star was crucial in the most recent assault on Valkyrja. At least, so far as quite a bit of Sanguis Astroism is concerned. Just ask the Holy Prophet. He was there and declared that it was so. And the Maddening Star was bright and superior  in the sky, giving proof for all to see. Again, so far as the worshipers of the Blood Stars are concerned. In fact, some even believe that the current war was instigated by the Stars themselves to unify the church of Sanguis Astroism, and draw it together to prevent it from fracturing.

And SA can believe that all it wants.  Jenred believes that he and Arcaea have been favoured by the Aenil in general and Amriel in the specific for various purposes, and holds that all the "luck" Arcaea has had in recent years is due to Edara being blessed.  I have nothing against these sort of things, but the fact remains that if you look at the historical records, all entities which have manifested on our world besides humans want to consume humans.

How do the Christian churches continue to function today without this proof? How did the Jewish faith survive during the holocaust? Or, pick any other religion and any incredibly destructive natural disaster. Are not all of these things proof positive that God doesn't give a damn about humans? I mean, if He was protecting us, then how would tragedies like the Holocaust have been allowed to happen? Or the World Trade Center attacks? Etc., etc., etc. ...

Because there are not blatant and obvious supernatural forces running contrary to Christian theology.  Natural disasters and human conflicts are not the same thing as fire-breathing Daimons coming from a place called the Netherworld wielding magics that we cannot even comprehend laying waste to entire countries.  There is no proof for Christianity or Judaism, but there is nothing disproving them either.