Dwilight IC and OOC updates and news!

[Bedwyr]

Who said it was based on Buddhism? No one did. Someone brought up Buddhism as an example of an actual religion that lacks divinities, they didn't say MP was based on it. If you're going to insult people, please at least read the thread more carefully.

I am not objecting to religions that are based on eastern religion or saying they are not SMA, as personally I feel that Sanguis Astroism is quite a bit more similar to Buddhism and other eastern traditions than to anything that came out of Western Europe. I am saying that I do not like *this* religion of the Manifest Path because it strikes me as being more ideological than theological. It reminds me of the great utopian political ideologies of the 20th century, such as Marxism and Facism, not of any actual religion with which I am familiar. THAT is what I meant by "modern".

There are strong ideological components, but this isn't "humans should work together because killing each other is bad" this is "humans should work together because there are known forces that are more powerful than we currently are attempting to commit genocide".  As for the theological components, there is a strong theology in the Manifest Path.  It is merely hostile rather than adoring of the various supernatural entities it recognizes.

[Bedwyr]

All of which perhaps makes this religion suitable for Beluaterra. Very suitable in fact, since all of the non-human forces it references are known *only* there.

There are a few reasons it's not there, one of which being that I don't want a character on Beluaterra, and another being that Koli thinks Beluaterra has been crippled and the next Invasion will finish it, at which point the rest of the continents are in danger.  Dwilight would be the next logical target, so he wants to begin preparing the defenses and alliances now rather than waiting until it is too late.

I am with Indirik though when it comes to its place on Dwilight. It seems far too modern to me, too much like modern political ideologies, with almost no trappings of anything I would consider religious. What exactly are your 'Priests'? What do they 'preach'?

They preach that the defenses of our world have been breached, that the forces of chaos embodied in the Daimons, Undead, and Monsters are growing in strength and power, and that humanity must unite and grow in the face of the coming darkness or be destroyed.  They preach that the gods will not stop the coming apocalypse (depending on your sect because they do not care, have abandoned us, or been defeated) and so we must learn to guard ourselves.  They preach that the end times are coming, the end of an era and the dawn of a new one, where humanity has learned and grown enough to defeat these menaces...Or been destroyed.

I disagree with the comparison to Norse religion since the Aesir aren't exactly a minor part of it - they're the heart of it.

I would disagree with that.  From what I've seen the heart of the Norse mythology was standing in opposition to the Jotun and other hostile forces and readying for the Last Battle.  You can take out the Aesir and still have the Norse readying and preparing for battle and standing against unbeatable odds simply because it is the right thing to do.

I do understand your point about humanity's reaction to monstrous and inhuman invasions, but wouldn't the continual defeats of the invaders reaffirm faith in the gods rather than destroy it?

No entity has manifested to protect humanity with the exception of the Light (and I'm surprised no one has made a religion worshiping that yet), and Koli doesn't trust the Light.  The First, Second, and Third Invasions would work for your point, but we, at best, stalemated the Fourth Invasion, which looks to me like the protections on our world have decayed or broken...Or, in the case of gods, been abandoned.  Indeed, I know of a couple who have joined or are planning on joining the Manifest Path because they explicitly believe the gods abandoned us because of [insert sin here] and that following the Path is the way to bring the gods back to save us.  The Tyrist sect of the Path thinks Koli's revelation was directly from Tyr, meant as a way to live our lives in order to appease/strengthen/whatever Tyr to convince him to return and help us.

[Bedwyr]

So where can I have a char join the Manifest Path? Before Tom's lightning bolt might strike it

Currently in Pian en Luries and Luria Nova, though I intend to spread it as far as possible for the obvious reasons.

[Chenier]

Because there are not blatant and obvious supernatural forces running contrary to Christian theology.  Natural disasters and human conflicts are not the same thing as fire-breathing Daimons coming from a place called the Netherworld wielding magics that we cannot even comprehend laying waste to entire countries.  There is no proof for Christianity or Judaism, but there is nothing disproving them either.

How are demons any worse than what we have in the real life, like the plague for example? Even wolves were believed to be children of Satan.

Daimons are only "supernatural" because we, as players, have never seen them in real life. They are just as normal in the BM world as anything awful is in ours. And terrible things only bring people closer to religions and god-worship, not farther, because people want an easy escape from their misery (asking an all-mighty being for help).

[Geronus]

There are strong ideological components, but this isn't "humans should work together because killing each other is bad" this is "humans should work together because there are known forces that are more powerful than we currently are attempting to commit genocide".  As for the theological components, there is a strong theology in the Manifest Path.  It is merely hostile rather than adoring of the various supernatural entities it recognizes.

Except those supernatural entities aren't myths. They are real, which makes an enormous difference. It is the equivalent of an interspecies hate group. There is no need for faith in MP. It is a rational political ideology, not a religion. I could easily adopt the tenets of MP into my character's politics without it affecting his faith in the Stars whatsoever since nothing about MP involves faith, mythology, worship, or any concept of the divine. It is merely a collection of political positions. Its priests would be politicians, its temples would be party offices. Here is a definition of religion:

"Religion is a cultural system that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and moral values. Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature."

Explain to me how MP fits that definition in ANY way. By contrast, here is a definition of Ideology:

"An ideology is a set of ideas that constitutes one's goals, expectations, and actions. An ideology can be thought of as a comprehensive vision, as a way of looking at things (compare worldview), as in common sense (see Ideology in everyday society below) and several philosophical tendencies (see Political ideologies), or a set of ideas proposed by the dominant class of a society to all members of this society (a "received consciousness" or product of socialization). The main purpose behind an ideology is to offer either change in society, or adherence to a set of ideals where conformity already exists, through a normative thought process."

Which matches up more closely with MP?

[Bedwyr]

How are demons any worse than what we have in the real life, like the plague for example? Even wolves were believed to be children of Satan.

Daimons are only "supernatural" because we, as players, have never seen them in real life. They are just as normal in the BM world as anything awful is in ours. And terrible things only bring people closer to religions and god-worship, not farther, because people want an easy escape from their misery (asking an all-mighty being for help).

Except there were never daimons before.  Whole big long history of the world...And then suddenly daimons rip open portals from the Netherworld and begin invading with building-sized monstrosities that breathe fire.  That's not normal.  That's not something any of our characters are prepared to deal with.  And the power level of the Daimons is enough that people have worshiped Daimon Lords as gods.

Not to mention that, traditionally, plagues and other disasters have been seen as divine punishment either directly or by withholding protection.  Both are held as true by the Manifest Path.  The Manifest Path simply disagrees that entities that show more power than us should automatically be worshiped, and most of the BM world has already decided that is the case, as evidenced by fighting the Daimon, Monster, and Undead lords.  If you want to argue that we can't be hostile to the supernatural, then point a finger at yourself for not bowing down to Arcane.

[Geronus]

They preach that the defenses of our world have been breached, that the forces of chaos embodied in the Daimons, Undead, and Monsters are growing in strength and power, and that humanity must unite and grow in the face of the coming darkness or be destroyed.  They preach that the gods will not stop the coming apocalypse (depending on your sect because they do not care, have abandoned us, or been defeated) and so we must learn to guard ourselves.  They preach that the end times are coming, the end of an era and the dawn of a new one, where humanity has learned and grown enough to defeat these menaces...Or been destroyed.

But, since these beings are real, not mythological, this isn't exactly preaching in the religious sense. MP's positions on all of the above spring completely from rational observation of actual events and reasonable deduction, rather than from holy scripture or divine revelation. All they are doing is presenting a political viewpoint. There is nothing religious about it.

[Chenier]

Except there were never daimons before.  Whole big long history of the world...And then suddenly daimons rip open portals from the Netherworld and begin invading with building-sized monstrosities that breathe fire.  That's not normal.  That's not something any of our characters are prepared to deal with.  And the power level of the Daimons is enough that people have worshiped Daimon Lords as gods.

Not to mention that, traditionally, plagues and other disasters have been seen as divine punishment either directly or by withholding protection.  Both are held as true by the Manifest Path.  The Manifest Path simply disagrees that entities that show more power than us should automatically be worshiped, and most of the BM world has already decided that is the case, as evidenced by fighting the Daimon, Monster, and Undead lords.  If you want to argue that we can't be hostile to the supernatural, then point a finger at yourself for not bowing down to Arcane.

We actually very did much bow to Arcane, at first. Then we found him stupid and decided his usefulness had expired. And greatly expanded our mythology, which was still extremely primitive at the time. We gradually determined what daimons were, and why they were there. And why the many other great disasters were happening.

Basically, the underlying idea in the cult was that the pure of heart would be spared in the end, that a golden age was awaiting the faithful once this age of strife was over. They thought the world was like a falling air balloon, if you will, and that to make it raise up again and reach their final destination, they had to dump all the heretics weighing it down. And this very much included working with these said "divine" forces to make it happen.

In the end, the disasters did not lower belief in the gods as you suggested it, it rather stimulated it. "The Gods are now too weak to protect us, we must rekindle the old traditions to give them back their strength so that we may live in prosperity under their caring wills". No disaster would have meant no interest in the gods. And since the "old traditions" involved human sacrifices, well it was clearly incompatible withe the "pan-humanity" ideologies which proned universal peace (as opposed to strength through struggle).

[Bedwyr]

Except those supernatural entities aren't myths. They are real, which makes an enormous difference. It is the equivalent of an interspecies hate group. There is no need for faith in MP. It is a rational political ideology, not a religion. I could easily adopt the tenets of MP into my character's politics without it affecting his faith in the Stars whatsoever since nothing about MP involves faith, mythology, worship, or any concept of the divine.

So, you're basically saying that because the supernatural entities actually exist, as opposed to being completely made up, that you can't have a religion focusing on them?  Does that make the slightest bit of sense?  No, there's no mythology, because there's history of the supernatural incursions.  No, there's no worship, because what's to worship?  Everything wants to eat us.  There's plenty of concept of the divine, it's just evil.

"Religion is a cultural system that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and moral values. Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature."

Explain to me how MP fits that definition in ANY way. By contrast, here is a definition of Ideology:

I'm going to talk as if I'm in the Path because it looks clunky otherwise.

The Manifest Path has a growing symbology around the Path, with members being Walkers and leaders being Guides, Trailblazers, Pathfinders, etc. and a lot of focus on finding the Path and Walking it against all odds.  There are narratives, traditions, and sacred histories detailing why we should be wary of and oppose the supernatural and give meaning to life by improving it for their children and later descendants.  Morality, ethics, religious laws, and preferred lifestyles are derived from our ideas on the cosmos (i.e. it's hostile and wants to eat us) and how human's work and can be molded.

You're also completely leaving aside the fact that the Manifest Path is a religion in an eastern sense.

By contrast, here is a definition of Ideology:

"An ideology is a set of ideas that constitutes one's goals, expectations, and actions. An ideology can be thought of as a comprehensive vision, as a way of looking at things (compare worldview), as in common sense (see Ideology in everyday society below) and several philosophical tendencies (see Political ideologies), or a set of ideas proposed by the dominant class of a society to all members of this society (a "received consciousness" or product of socialization). The main purpose behind an ideology is to offer either change in society, or adherence to a set of ideals where conformity already exists, through a normative thought process."

Which matches up more closely with MP?

You're leaving aside the fact that several people, including myself, believe that all religions are ideologies, hence the term "religious ideology".

[Bedwyr]

But, since these beings are real, not mythological, this isn't exactly preaching in the religious sense. MP's positions on all of the above spring completely from rational observation of actual events and reasonable deduction, rather than from holy scripture or divine revelation. All they are doing is presenting a political viewpoint. There is nothing religious about it.

Are you saying that religious leaders preaching that eating shellfish and pork in times before they had modern ways of cleaning such foods were not actually talking about religious matters?  The fact that more people got sick when they ate those foods rather than others invalidated the religious angle to it?

You're advocating that religions must not have any basis in reality, or they aren't religions.  That just doesn't make any sense to me.  Plenty of religious strictures are firmly based in reality, as anyone who's looked through the restrictions in the Bible, Koran, Torah, or pretty much any other holy book can tell you.

[Bedwyr]

In the end, the disasters did not lower belief in the gods as you suggested it, it rather stimulated it. "The Gods are now too weak to protect us, we must rekindle the old traditions to give them back their strength so that we may live in prosperity under their caring wills". No disaster would have meant no interest in the gods. And since the "old traditions" involved human sacrifices, well it was clearly incompatible withe the "pan-humanity" ideologies which proned universal peace (as opposed to strength through struggle).

I never said that invasions from hell had to lower belief in gods.  It certainly can, as you can see in our own history along with plenty of examples of people becoming more religious in times of crisis.  I said that it did in this specific case, and I thought it made sense.  There's a large difference between those two.  One of them says "humans can only be this way" and the other says "humans have different reactions to the same events".

[Geronus]

Are you saying that religious leaders preaching that eating shellfish and pork in times before they had modern ways of cleaning such foods were not actually talking about religious matters?  The fact that more people got sick when they ate those foods rather than others invalidated the religious angle to it?

You're advocating that religions must not have any basis in reality, or they aren't religions.  That just doesn't make any sense to me.  Plenty of religious strictures are firmly based in reality, as anyone who's looked through the restrictions in the Bible, Koran, Torah, or pretty much any other holy book can tell you.

I'm not saying they have to be completely divorced from it, no. However, religion is much more about the spiritual and intangible. That the universe is hostile and wants to eat us isn't exactly a revolutionary idea. I'm pretty sure that cavemen lived with that reality every day. Religion is fundamentally about what it means to be human - what is right and what is wrong, where do we come from, where do we go when we die, what is the meaning of life, how can we find peace, etc. Without some of these things, I don't really agree that you can have what I would call a religion. Of course when it comes to religions and ideology, you are right. The lines can be blurred, as most religions are also ideologies. Not all ideologies are religions, however. That's an important distinction. MP is primarily focused on social engineering and propounding a political worldview of hostility to nonhuman political factions, not on human spirituality or the meaning of the divine.

Please explain how MP is a religion in the eastern sense, as I fail to see it.

[Bedwyr]

The Manifest Path's take on the supernatural entities in the BM-world isn't the only facet of the religion.  It also declares that the growth of civilization is a positive good, and this is very specifically not merely in a physical sense.  The writings are a bit vague on this point, but it is my intention that when I can find someone who can write this stuff better than I can (Franz is a good candidate) to get someone to start talking about the improvement one can find in cultural enlightenment, how the arts and various other uplifting aspects of civilization can improve the human spirit as much as good plumbing and farming can improve the human body (see why I shouldn't be writing this?  I think good plumbing is awesome and should be mentioned all over the place).

Ethics are defined, and quite firmly.  Meaning of life is survival and struggle against nigh-impossible odds.  The social aspects of the religion delve much more into this sort of thing.

And since when does an idea have to be revolutionary to be religious?  Why must it be intangible?  Do you think the people a thousand years ago reading the Bible thought the stories there were myths?  Or did they think when the Bible said God smote the unbelievers with plagues or sent down a column of fire that those things actually happened?  With the exception of the creation itself and the Flood, the powers the Daimons and other leaders of the inhuman factions have displayed are on par with those of the God of the Old Testament.  Why isn't a religion based around them valid?

Greek and Roman religion were about propitiating various deities, most of whom were hostile unless handled very carefully.  Yes, the gods sometimes helped.  More often they got bored and started tossing lightning bolts around or raping you.  They didn't think they could fight their deities and win, but if you look at the myths you see a lot of people wishing they could.  The Manifest Path thinks that the known deities can be fought successfully, with enough preparation and unity.

[fodder]

go shinto buddhism or whatever branch of japanese buddhism it was. they had jihads and crusades / equivalents against infidel lords (including christians) and plenty of divine/semi divine beings to pray to back in sengoku. it was rather feudal, admittedly something like 15xx rather than the earlier western times of bm.

last bunch of bt daimons were about as anti-sma as anything can get. what was it that they had? teleportation? laser strikes? bit weird to use them in dwi surely?

so called modern buddhism is more like buddhism the philosophy rather than (various kinds of) buddhism the religion which basically is about as big a hotchpotch with local paganism/religion as christianity is.

[Indirik]

And SA can believe that all it wants.  Jenred believes that he and Arcaea have been favoured by the Aenil in general and Amriel in the specific for various purposes, and holds that all the "luck" Arcaea has had in recent years is due to Edara being blessed.  I have nothing against these sort of things, but the fact remains that if you look at the historical records, all entities which have manifested on our world besides humans want to consume humans.

Forces which have manifested physical bodies in the past 5 years, maybe? That does not mean they are the only ones that exist, or that intervene in the world. But then a supernatural force does not have to hold a flaming sword in a clawed fist in order to have an effect on the world, or to defend humanity from the scourge of beasts and zombies.

You are also disregarding the Zuma, the human realm that lives in harmony with their daimon protectors, and who have not, so far, "consumed" humans.

Because there are not blatant and obvious supernatural forces running contrary to Christian theology.  Natural disasters and human conflicts are not the same thing as fire-breathing Daimons coming from a place called the Netherworld wielding magics that we cannot even comprehend laying waste to entire countries. There is no proof for Christianity or Judaism, but there is nothing disproving them either.

Just like there's nothing disproving the existence of supernatural forces defending humanity against the rogue forces of Dwilight. Just because your character has not personally seen god walking the earth and striking down monsters while they march across the plains toward Askileon does not mean that the gods don't exist, or that the the gods aren't helping defend humanity.