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[Fleugs]

If Tom says all religions should be like in medieval times, there's really only one religion to base all religions upon: Christianity. Although there were other religions ("pagan practices" as we know them) the one and only major religion in medieval Europe was Catholicism. So, drawing that line further, all religions in BM would be pretty much the same (monotheistic).

[De-Legro]

This. Unless you have suddenly become the embodiment of Tom, and know his innermost thoughts and feelings, then please stop acting like you know what he will do.

He actually said nothing about what Tom would do, simply that when the issue is a SMA thing, Toms ruling is probably required, and everyone else's opinion will have little bearing on the outcome.

[Galvez]

We could all wait and do nothing and see if Tom agrees or not. But, this is a discussion forum. I think it is perfectly appropriate to compare a new religion to existing ones; I also think that if you plan to create a new religion and wonder if it will be acceptable, the best thing you can do is to inspire yourself from what already exists so as to fit within the overall experience of the game.

But that did not happened. Bedwyr used an argument that comes down to: All the other religions on Dwilight do not meet the guidelines, so why should we? While I respect Bedwyr's opinion, it remains his opinion. And I am certain the creators/prophets, priests and perhaps followers of the other religion can give valid argument why their religion does meet the SMA-guidelines. And the MP is being questioned here, and I would like to hear why they are an appropriate religion for Dwilight. By criticizing the other religions instead, this debate is not moving forewards.

If Tom says all religions should be like in medieval times, there's really only one religion to base all religions upon: Christianity. Although there were other religions ("pagan practices" as we know them) the one and only major religion in medieval Europe was Catholicism. So, drawing that line further, all religions in BM would be pretty much the same (monotheistic).

I believe it is also a general guideline for all BM worlds not to base your religion too much at existing ones such as christianity, because it might be offensive or otherwise hurtful to those player who do believe in Christ.
And from the wiki: "There is still an incredibly broad and deep variety of themes and cultures in Medieval Europe that you can draw inspiration from (Spaniards, Greeks, Baltics, Eastern European Cultures). There is quite enough variety without having to blend cultures that realistically never would've had much to do with one another. A little bit of research will turn up a lot of results. "

[De-Legro]

But that did not happened. Bedwyr used an argument that comes down to: All the other religions on Dwilight do not meet the guidelines, so why should we? While I respect Bedwyr's opinion, it remains his opinion. And I am certain the creators/prophets, priests and perhaps followers of the other religion can give valid argument why their religion does meet the SMA-guidelines. And the MP is being questioned here, and I would like to hear why they are an appropriate religion for Dwilight. By criticizing the other religions instead, this debate is not moving forewards.
I believe it is also a general guideline for all BM worlds not to base your religion too much at existing ones such as christianity, because it might be offensive or otherwise hurtful to those player who do believe in Christ.
And from the wiki: "There is still an incredibly broad and deep variety of themes and cultures in Medieval Europe that you can draw inspiration from (Spaniards, Greeks, Baltics, Eastern European Cultures). There is quite enough variety without having to blend cultures that realistically never would've had much to do with one another. A little bit of research will turn up a lot of results. "

That is because how can this new religion damage SMA if all other existing religions break the guidelines in a similar manner. Either SMA is not affected by this, or its already broken and the Manifest Path is unlikely to break it further. It is actually our contention that none of the existing religions actually break the SMA, but then it is our contention that neither does the Manifest Path. We do claim that if the interpretation of SMA as presented in this thread is true, that yes by extension all other religions also break the guidelines to some degree. Mind you none of the mentioned groups break the SMA as obviously as calling a realm Xinhai in my opinion.

[Geronus]

Mind you none of the mentioned groups break the SMA as obviously as calling a realm Xinhai in my opinion.

I believe that came about because of the way that Morek's core regions are named - Donghaiwei, Zhongyuan, Bohai, Taishan... etc. However, since the actual culture of the realm did not change with the name and was still rooted in the great religious knightly orders of the middle ages, I think it's a major stretch to argue that because of the name alone it violated SMA...

[De-Legro]

I believe that came about because of the way that Morek's core regions are named - Donghaiwei, Zhongyuan, Bohai, Taishan... etc. However, since the actual culture of the realm did not change with the name and was still rooted in the great religious knightly orders of the middle ages, I think it's a major stretch to argue that because of the name alone it violated SMA...

To new players and those outside the realm, the name is one of the most visible things.

[vonGenf]

That is because how can this new religion damage SMA if all other existing religions break the guidelines in a similar manner. Either SMA is not affected by this, or its already broken and the Manifest Path is unlikely to break it further. It is actually our contention that none of the existing religions actually break the SMA, but then it is our contention that neither does the Manifest Path. We do claim that if the interpretation of SMA as presented in this thread is true, that yes by extension all other religions also break the guidelines to some degree.

Indeed.

Mind you none of the mentioned groups break the SMA as obviously as calling a realm Xinhai in my opinion.

That's taking SMA a little far. There is a region called Dantooine..... and nothing trumps game mechanics.

[De-Legro]

Indeed.

That's taking SMA a little far. There is a region called Dantooine..... and nothing trumps game mechanics.

Best not to get me started on some of the region names on Dwilight. Even without the obvious references, simply naming regions with a oriental flavor seems to fly in the face of what SMA is trying to do, but then I understand that the regions were named before SMA was applied.

[Galvez]

That is because how can this new religion damage SMA if all other existing religions break the guidelines in a similar manner. Either SMA is not affected by this, or its already broken and the Manifest Path is unlikely to break it further. It is actually our contention that none of the existing religions actually break the SMA, but then it is our contention that neither does the Manifest Path. We do claim that if the interpretation of SMA as presented in this thread is true, that yes by extension all other religions also break the guidelines to some degree. Mind you none of the mentioned groups break the SMA as obviously as calling a realm Xinhai in my opinion.

It is a very simple question. Is the MP appropriate for Dwilight as a religion? Yes or No. Of course, with a motivation of your answer based on the theology of the MP, and not on the validity of the other religions.

Where do we draw the line? As if MP is appropriate, we might as well ask the Blood Cult to start a sect on Dwilight. And ask the Curch of Humanity to spread their beliefs to every cornor of Dwilight. The MP is some kind of anti-religion which bases it filosophy on an asian 'religion' and does not worship a devine entity, nor has any spiritual message. That is how I interper it at the moment from what I read here on the forum and the wiki. You won't change my views by criticizing SA and the other religions on Dwilight, and it will certainly not help the discussion. Therefore my question: Why do you believe the MP is an appropriate religion for Dwilight?

[De-Legro]

It is a very simple question. Is the MP appropriate for Dwilight as a religion? Yes or No. Of course, with a motivation of your answer based on the theology of the MP, and not on the validity of the other religions.

Where do we draw the line? As if MP is appropriate, we might as well ask the Blood Cult to start a sect on Dwilight. And ask the Curch of Humanity to spread their beliefs to every cornor of Dwilight. The MP is some kind of anti-religion which bases it filosophy on an asian 'religion' and does not worship a devine entity, nor has any spiritual message. That is how I interper it at the moment from what I read here on the forum and the wiki. You won't change my views by criticizing SA and the other religions on Dwilight, and it will certainly not help the discussion. Therefore my question: Why do you believe the MP is an appropriate religion for Dwilight?

Because it does have a spiritual message, is not "based" on a asian religion, is simply has parallels to that. Most importantly, as has been stated several time in this thread, the Manifest Path does not exclude worship of the divine, and in fact already has a sizable sect that worships Tyr.

[vonGenf]

It is a very simple question. Is the MP appropriate for Dwilight as a religion? Yes or No. Of course, with a motivation of your answer based on the theology of the MP, and not on the validity of the other religions.
 

Yes. It is Serious. It is Medieval. It adds to the Atmosphere.

I feel your criticism is that it is not medieval. I disagree. Clearly, SMA does not mean "exactly like christianism", I argue that it can be medieval enough, based on what I understand to be enough looking at the other existing accepted religions.

Where do we draw the line? As if MP is appropriate, we might as well ask the Blood Cult to start a sect on Dwilight. And ask the Curch of Humanity to spread their beliefs to every cornor of Dwilight. The MP is some kind of anti-religion which bases it filosophy on an asian 'religion' and does not worship a devine entity, nor has any spiritual message. That is how I interper it at the moment from what I read here on the forum and the wiki. You won't change my views by criticizing SA and the other religions on Dwilight, and it will certainly not help the discussion. Therefore my question: Why do you believe the MP is an appropriate religion for Dwilight?

Neither would you change my view by criticising other religions not on Dwilight!

[Gustav Kuriga]

For the last and hopefully final time, MP acknowledges the existance of deities/gods. Anyone who says it doesn't has obviously not been doing their research and should not start saying this and that about the religion.

[Galvez]

Regarding my research, I have read it all. The whole discussion from the beginning until the end, and a lot of wikipedia pages, just to name a few: Misotheism, Deism, Theism, Nontheism, Buddism, Confucianism. And not only in English, but also in my native language. Therefore, I am certainly not saying that they do not acknowledge divine entities. They reason upon the existance of the beings greater than humanity inclining that all facts of their existance points out that they are a threat to humanity, with a need or desire to consume human beings. Bedwyr said that the MP is misotheistic combined with a deistic filosophy. Misotheism blandly means: hatred of God(s). Inclining to me that you do not trust and disgust all that is considered divine or more powerful than humans. That would contradict with saying, some of us worship Tyr. I assume that Tyr is some kind of divine being? And it also is no divine law to worship anything. Also the following is interesting: "The Manifest Path endeavours to not ask any leaps of faith, only the exercise of logic with the occasional minor intuitive leap with each step along the Path firmly grounded in provable (or at least supportable) facts." That is part of the deism filosophy, a relatively modern filosophy. If that is considered SMA, than atheism shouldn't be a problem on Dwilight. But we all know Tom's opinion about atheism, and that applies to all BM Worlds. I say this to emphasize what I have said earlier: Where do we draw the line between what is and what is not acceptable on Dwilight?

Yes. It is Serious. It is Medieval. It adds to the Atmosphere.

Oh My God. That is the only answer I have on that. Please read: http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/SMA#Non-European_Realm.2FReligion_Concepts

That is because how can this new religion damage SMA if all other existing religions break the guidelines in a similar manner. Either SMA is not affected by this, or its already broken and the Manifest Path is unlikely to break it further. It is actually our contention that none of the existing religions actually break the SMA, but then it is our contention that neither does the Manifest Path. We do claim that if the interpretation of SMA as presented in this thread is true, that yes by extension all other religions also break the guidelines to some degree.

If the first is the case, we should dedicate a whole new topic to this problem in order to restore the SMA balance. And we should not harm the balance any further with new religions who do not contribute to the SMA. On the other hand, claiming that non of the current religions (including MP) break the SMA (or only in a small degree), then please explain to me how a mix of deism, confucianism and misotheism filosophy fits into the Serious Medieval Atmosphere of Dwilight.

[Chenier]

Yes. It is Serious. It is Medieval. It adds to the Atmosphere.

So would have the Blood Cult. It was dead-serious, promoted a system closer to british feudalism than many european systems, was from about the same time period, and was all about giving religion the role it deserved in the societies of the days.

I don't see how MP is any more SMA than the Blood Cult would have been. Mind you, I never favoured the euro-centric SMA tenant, and have always believed it made the experience poorer instead of richer.

[Anaris]

So would have the Blood Cult. It was dead-serious, promoted a system closer to british feudalism than many european systems, was from about the same time period, and was all about giving religion the role it deserved in the societies of the days.

I don't see how MP is any more SMA than the Blood Cult would have been. Mind you, I never favoured the euro-centric SMA tenant, and have always believed it made the experience poorer instead of richer.

If I remember and understand Tom's issues with the Blood Cult correctly, his objection was to the names, not the substance.

Change the names in the BC to be more medieval-fantasy and less Mesoamerica, and I'd say there'd be no problem with putting it on Dwilight.