Dwilight IC and OOC updates and news!

[Chenier]

If I remember and understand Tom's issues with the Blood Cult correctly, his objection was to the names, not the substance.

Change the names in the BC to be more medieval-fantasy and less Mesoamerica, and I'd say there'd be no problem with putting it on Dwilight.

If I remember correctly, this was not the case. It really was that he wanted european-inspired religions and cultures. At least, if it was only about the names, then I was never told, and that's not really something I was inflexible about.

[De-Legro]

If I remember and understand Tom's issues with the Blood Cult correctly, his objection was to the names, not the substance.

Change the names in the BC to be more medieval-fantasy and less Mesoamerica, and I'd say there'd be no problem with putting it on Dwilight.

That was also my understanding, the basic concepts were acceptable but the use of Mesoamerican names was not.

Galvez, the Manifest Path separates the divine into two groups. The ones Bedwyr refers to as a threat to humanity are those that seek to actively intervene in the affairs of our physical world. The second are like Tyr, who concern themselves with a spiritual world or afterlife and do not meddle in our world. The second type can be worshipped within the context of the religion, Tyr was the deity of a early PeL religion.

"The Manifest Path endeavours to not ask any leaps of faith, only the exercise of logic with the occasional minor intuitive leap with each step along the Path firmly grounded in provable (or at least supportable) facts." Actually it is ancient Greek philosophy, resurrected in the enlightenment era and applied to religion. The use of logic is not a modern concept. The important thing to remember about logic, especially western logic is that it often DOES require a leap of faith either in terms of the assumptions or in terms of the artificially created situation. We just like to pretend that logic is rock solid when it is often has as little substance as religious faith.

[Anaris]

If I remember correctly, this was not the case. It really was that he wanted european-inspired religions and cultures. At least, if it was only about the names, then I was never told, and that's not really something I was inflexible about.

Hmm.  It's also possible that he was more adamant about it at the time...but at this point, SMA in practice is really quite a lot less strict than SMA in theory before and in the early stages of Dwilight was.

[^ban^]

...but at this point, SMA in practice is really quite a lot less strict than SMA in theory before and in the early stages of Dwilight was.

I'd hate to be the one to point this out, but doesn't that sound an awful lot like another island we know? Perhaps it may be time to "step up" on SMA enforcement (namely by clarifying things such as what is and is not acceptable, I believe) before history repeats itself?

[Vaylon Kenadell]

I'd hate to be the one to point this out, but doesn't that sound an awful lot like another island we know? Perhaps it may be time to "step up" on SMA enforcement (namely by clarifying things such as what is and is not acceptable, I believe) before history repeats itself?

Well, then, they should allow us to change some of those horrible, horrible region names.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Those were kind of determined a long time ago. Besides, there are natives to Dwilight, with varying cultures. Maybe the regions' names were simply borrowed from them, and have nothing to do with the current culture? Take for example the many instances you can see cities named Troy in the United States, that have nothing to do with Homer's epic.

As for the cycle of history, I assume we mean FEI? Well, there are SMA complaint links. Those can be used, you know...

[Bedwyr]

Well, then, they should allow us to change some of those horrible, horrible region names.

This.  If we're going to step up SMA enforcement, then the region names must be changed.  Telling people you're going to be strict about only having completely European religions and cultures in Dantooine and Donghaiwei is merely going to piss people off.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Only thing about that is the Morek variations never had an issue with the Chinese themed naming. They integrated the names well into their cultural structure, taking them as more or less artifacts of native names.

What's wrong about that anyway? Sure, many times the immigrants give their native language's names to the regions. But on a more practical level, what is wrong about the region names indicating native culture? I think it only reinforces the fact that you are not the first one here, that you should not be so arrogant as to try to impose your own names on regions that might very well have been inhabited long before you, with kingdoms that rose and fell far more times than your mere history. RP value. You could theoretically do it with strictly European styled naming, but for some people, some names can be just as exotic, and would still not make much difference than a Chinese-themed name. I mean, try Gaelic names, or Russian names. Maybe we'll add Greek names and make people have a bunch of Spartans running around? Or let's put in Latin because hey, the Vatican actually uses that and as we all know they were pretty heavy hitters in the Middle Ages.

[Bedwyr]

"The Manifest Path endeavours to not ask any leaps of faith, only the exercise of logic with the occasional minor intuitive leap with each step along the Path firmly grounded in provable (or at least supportable) facts."

I'm tired of having this thrown back at me OOC.  It is based on Greek ideas, which is about as European as it gets since the Greeks inspired "Western" civilization and basing things on the classics like the Greeks and Romans was pretty common.

It's also a complete fabrication.  The logic involved is, at best, psuedo-logic in several cases.  It is a piece of propaganda to appeal to the rationalist types.

And for the last blasted time, the religion is new.  More stuff gets added as I or others present it.  I've had some extensive discussions about what the Manifest Path's position on souls and how they work, and that's going to go through the process to become one of the official writings soon.

Deism, by the way, originated with the ancient Greeks.  There was a big revival in the Enlightenment, but it never truly died.

The comparisons with east Asian religions are to counter the argument that it's not a religion at all.  I said from the start that my main inspiration for the theology was the Norse religion minus the Aesir being good guys.  And again, BM-reality has to trump SMA, and the existence of the Netherworld and the Daimon invasions absolutely has to be taken into account theologically or the religion is flipping insane.  It's such an incredibly crucial change to the world that shouting "IT'S NOT BASED ON A EUROPEAN RELIGION!!" is beside the point, because Europe was never invaded by beings that are clearly demons straight out of hell.

Seriously, people.  Give a culture some time to develop.  See what happens.  See whether this is actually going to hurt something.

And yeah, I think a comparison with the other religions on Dwilight works.  Especially when Rob's comments about the Bloodstars being actual gods worshiped is flat-out contradicted by quotes from SA's Prophet.  I think SA is one of the best things to happen to the game, and did amazing things for getting people on Dwilight to think of religions very seriously, but it sure as hell has no relation to any European religion I've ever heard of.  Changing your life to fit the patterns of the eternal stars which influence the movements of your blood has no relation to making sacrifices to and worshiping a god.

To me, the point of SMA is to make people really think like nobles, within a context of the warring states of Middle Ages Europe.  Religion should be extremely important, in many cases more important than realm affiliation.  Our characters should not be socialists, should not be egalitarian, and should jealously guard their privileges.  They should not be tolerant of beliefs that contradict their own, and should push their own faith.  And, of course, they should not be buddy-buddy with commoners.

[Nerukou]

Where do we draw the line? As if MP is appropriate, we might as well ask the Blood Cult to start a sect on Dwilight. And ask the Curch of Humanity to spread their beliefs to every cornor of Dwilight. The MP is some kind of anti-religion which bases it filosophy on an asian 'religion' and does not worship a devine entity, nor has any spiritual message. That is how I interper it at the moment from what I read here on the forum and the wiki. You won't change my views by criticizing SA and the other religions on Dwilight, and it will certainly not help the discussion. Therefore my question: Why do you believe the MP is an appropriate religion for Dwilight?

Your argument is fallacious and illogical. If Tom accepts a religion with Asian parallels that may or may not exactly fit his idea of SMA, it doesn't necessarily mean he would accept one that obviously does not. One is a moderate position and the other an extreme. Regardless of whether or not the Manifest Path is acceptable to Tom has nothing to do with whether the Blood Cult would be, and you know it.

Furthermore, you just criticized Matt for comparing MP to the other religions on Dwilight, and then you go and compare MP to religions on other islands? That is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

[^ban^]

This.  If we're going to step up SMA enforcement, then the region names must be changed.  Telling people you're going to be strict about only having completely European religions and cultures in Dantooine and Donghaiwei is merely going to piss people off.

Then perhaps you're looking at the issue wrong. Perhaps this is more an issue, as I said earlier, with defining what is and is not appropriate under SMA. Is it not possible that the current concept of SMA is a flawed one?

[Shenron]

The comparisons with east Asian religions are to counter the argument that it's not a religion at all.  I said from the start that my main inspiration for the theology was the Norse religion minus the Aesir being good guys.

Actually I'd say this is the problem with the manifest path. There needs to be some sort of almighty deit(ies)y above humans who can be worshipped.

I think this is crucial to Europe-inspired religion.

[De-Legro]

Actually I'd say this is the problem with the manifest path. There needs to be some sort of almighty deit(ies)y above humans who can be worshipped.

I think this is crucial to Europe-inspired religion.

We have them, just not all of us want to worship them, which actually fits many ancient European religions. While all included some form of worship it was never a given that all members of the "faith" actually worshipped the gods, some acknowledged the gods existence and power, but did not perform the rituals of worship.

[Shenron]

We have them, just not all of us want to worship them, which actually fits many ancient European religions. While all included some form of worship it was never a given that all members of the "faith" actually worshipped the gods, some acknowledged the gods existence and power, but did not perform the rituals of worship.

Which 1500s European religion did this? 

[Bedwyr]

Which 1500s European religion did this? 

You mean Christianity, Islam, and Judaism?  If we're limiting it to major European religions in the year 1500, then those are your three options.

Or, you can roll it back a bit to the days when Christianity was still duking it out with the various pre-Christian cultures, and the Christianization of Scandinavia didn't finish until well into the middle ages.  And the Nordic religion had several deities that the power of was acknowledged and respected but not worshiped by the entire population.