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[Bedwyr]

Then perhaps you're looking at the issue wrong. Perhaps this is more an issue, as I said earlier, with defining what is and is not appropriate under SMA. Is it not possible that the current concept of SMA is a flawed one?

Certainly, the current concept of SMA may well be flawed, and I'm all in favour of making clearer definitions.

[De-Legro]

Which 1500s European religion did this? 

Which 1500's European religion had more then 1 god? Considering that the wiki specifically makes mention of influences such as Greek religion for the SMA, I seriously doubt we are supposed to restrict ourselves to the major religions at the END of the medieval period.

[Indirik]

Especially when Rob's comments about the Bloodstars being actual gods worshiped is flat-out contradicted by quotes from SA's Prophet.  I think SA is one of the best things to happen to the game, and did amazing things for getting people on Dwilight to think of religions very seriously, but it sure as hell has no relation to any European religion I've ever heard of.  Changing your life to fit the patterns of the eternal stars which influence the movements of your blood has no relation to making sacrifices to and worshiping a god.

I'm pretty sure I've been pretty clear to never refer to SA as having "gods". The latest quote I could find my having made was:
"Yes, Sanguis Astroism is devoted to the worship of supernatural entities, considered to be divine. They are not commonly referred to as gods."

I'm fairly certain there are some who worship the Stars as "gods", but that is definitely not the standard church doctrine.

The whole eastern vs western is not what really bothers me about tMP. Unless you try to justify it because "It's an eastern thing", which is an invalid argument since eastern isn't allowed. What bothers me is statements like the one that started this whole thing: "The Manifest Path follows no god or divine power ...". And this: " As for the theological components, there is a strong theology in the Manifest Path.  It is merely hostile rather than adoring of the various supernatural entities it recognizes."

If you're not following god or a divine power, you're not a religion.
If you're hostile toward the gods you acknowledge, then you're not worshiping them, so you're not a religion.

You have to do more than just handwave a begrudging acceptance of the fact that gods exist and then say "can we get back to the important stuff please?" It's a religion. It should be all about the gods. It should be all about exalting them, spreading their influence, and doing their will. It shouldn't be about teaching everyone that they're dirtbags that should be hated.

[vonGenf]

Actually, there is an example of a misotheistic religion in medieval Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathars#Theology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge#Cathars

tl;dr: "The God found in the Old Testament had nothing to do with the God of Love known to Cathars. The Old Testament God had created the world as a prison, and demanded from the "prisoners" fearful obedience and worship. The Cathari claimed that this god was in fact a blind usurper who under the most false pretexts, tormented and murdered those whom he called, all too possessively, "his children". The false god was, by the Cathari, called Rex Mundi, or The King of the World. "

It's different than MP, sure, but religions which recognized gods without worshipping them existed in Europe.

[vonGenf]

I'm pretty sure I've been pretty clear to never refer to SA as having "gods". The latest quote I could find my having made was:
"Yes, Sanguis Astroism is devoted to the worship of supernatural entities, considered to be divine. They are not commonly referred to as gods."

(...)

You have to do more than just handwave a begrudging acceptance of the fact that gods exist and then say "can we get back to the important stuff please?" It's a religion. It should be all about the gods. It should be all about exalting them, spreading their influence, and doing their will. It shouldn't be about teaching everyone that they're dirtbags that should be hated.

A large part of SA is actually containing and controlling the influence of the Stars, pure exaltation is often frowned upon.

[Shizzle]

"The God found in the Old Testament had nothing to do with the God of Love known to Cathars.

The Cathars maybe didn't worship Jahweh, but apparently they did worship this God of Love. So this argument holds little value (judging from just this quote)

[De-Legro]

I'm pretty sure I've been pretty clear to never refer to SA as having "gods". The latest quote I could find my having made was:
"Yes, Sanguis Astroism is devoted to the worship of supernatural entities, considered to be divine. They are not commonly referred to as gods."

I'm fairly certain there are some who worship the Stars as "gods", but that is definitely not the standard church doctrine.

The whole eastern vs western is not what really bothers me about tMP. Unless you try to justify it because "It's an eastern thing", which is an invalid argument since eastern isn't allowed. What bothers me is statements like the one that started this whole thing: "The Manifest Path follows no god or divine power ...". And this: " As for the theological components, there is a strong theology in the Manifest Path.  It is merely hostile rather than adoring of the various supernatural entities it recognizes."

If you're not following god or a divine power, you're not a religion.
If you're hostile toward the gods you acknowledge, then you're not worshiping them, so you're not a religion.

You have to do more than just handwave a begrudging acceptance of the fact that gods exist and then say "can we get back to the important stuff please?" It's a religion. It should be all about the gods. It should be all about exalting them, spreading their influence, and doing their will. It shouldn't be about teaching everyone that they're dirtbags that should be hated.

Ancient Greece had Epicureanism which taught that Gods were disinterested in humanity, and its main rituals basically were the pursuit of pleasure and happiness. Some branches of the Gnostics held the belief that the creator God was evil and thus by extension all matter was evil. Religion has always been more complex then just a simple worship or servitude to a divine power.

[De-Legro]

The Cathars maybe didn't worship Jahweh, but apparently they did worship this God of Love. So this argument holds little value (judging from just this quote)

Indeed the dualistic Cathars worshiped the second of the two gods. Dualistic Catharism was the most prominent, but by no means the only school of though within the movement.

[Shizzle]

Ancient Greece had Epicureanism which taught that Gods were disinterested in humanity, and its main rituals basically were the pursuit of pleasure and happiness. Some branches of the Gnostics held the belief that the creator God was evil and thus by extension all matter was evil. Religion has always been more complex then just a simple worship or servitude to a divine power.

Epicureanism is generally not considered a religion.

[Anaris]

Religion has always been more complex then just a simple worship or servitude to a divine power.

I think this right here is really the key.

Indirik, you're trying to oversimplify.  You're trying to define "religion" as "worship of one or more divine powers," when it's quite plain that that's not the case.  It's a nice, easy, simple way to think about it, but in the words of H. L. Mencken, "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." 

I think you've found that answer here.

Religion isn't that simple, however much you might want it to be.

[De-Legro]

Epicureanism is generally not considered a religion.

Interesting, my Theology college disagrees, but then I belong to a rather liberal Christan denomination.

[De-Legro]

A nice little snippet from Wikipedia that tries to give a definition to the world religion

"Religion is a cultural system that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and moral values.[1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature.

The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system, but religion differs from private belief in that it has a public aspect. Most religions have organized behaviors, including clerical hierarchies, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, congregations of laity, regular meetings or services for the purposes of veneration of a deity or for prayer, holy places (either natural or architectural), and/or scriptures. The practice of a religion may also include sermons, commemoration of the activities of a god or gods, sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trance, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, music, art, dance, public service, or other aspects of human culture."

[Indirik]

A large part of SA is actually containing and controlling the influence of the Stars,

Moderating and balancing their influence on your own person and mind. Not containing and controlling the influence of the Stars on the world. Sanguis Astroism is all about expanding the influence of the Stars on the world in general. We spreads their faith and belief as wide as we can.

pure exaltation is often frowned upon.

This is something that I have never heard of, nor personally seen. Nor can I find any mention of anything similar to this on the wiki.

[Indirik]

Indirik, you're trying to oversimplify. ... Religion isn't that simple, however much you might want it to be.

That's quite possibly true. But we have to start somewhere. The players are supposed to be the guardians of what is and is not acceptable in the game, especially on Dwilight. The players are the only ones able to maintain and police SMA. (And with this debate, we're seeing how completely, and totally, player policing fails in a large-scale environment.) The Titans can't do it, and will not act on anything other than most obvious and blatant cases of SMA abuse. And on many of those, the answer you usually get back is "Handle it IC."

So what the players need to do is somehow define what is and is not acceptable. Which is what we're trying to do here. What is acceptable in a religion? Is it enough to simple say "We believe something, therefore we're an official religion."? Even if the belief is "god suck and you shouldn't worship them"?

This type of thing needs resolved, or Dwilight is at risk of being overtaken by the same type of non-religious-religions that infest many of the other islands.

[Anaris]

That's quite possibly true. But we have to start somewhere. The players are supposed to be the guardians of what is and is not acceptable in the game, especially on Dwilight. The players are the only ones able to maintain and police SMA. (And with this debate, we're seeing how completely, and totally, player policing fails in a large-scale environment.) The Titans can't do it, and will not act on anything other than most obvious and blatant cases of SMA abuse. And on many of those, the answer you usually get back is "Handle it IC."

So what the players need to do is somehow define what is and is not acceptable. Which is what we're trying to do here. What is acceptable in a religion? Is it enough to simple say "We believe something, therefore we're an official religion."? Even if the belief is "god suck and you shouldn't worship them"?

This type of thing needs resolved, or Dwilight is at risk of being overtaken by the same type of non-religious-religions that infest many of the other islands.

If you asked me when Sanguis Astroism started up whether it was SMA compliant, I would have told you, "Hell no."  And I would have backed it up with many of the same complaints you have about the MP.

Don't try and tell me you can't see the parallels.

It seems to me that when you boil it down, the important thing is the atmosphere that any given religion helps to foster.  I think that the atmosphere the MP will foster will be a good one, very apt for BM, for Dwilight, and, yes, for SMA.