From The Rulers Channel on Discord - Small realms

[PolarRaven]

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From the Rulers channel on Discord:

PlaraveenLast Thursday at 11:40 AM
For transparency because the DEV's do not play in the game:
Out-of-Character from Glynkar Plaraveen
Message sent to the rulers of Beluaterra (9 recipients) - 1 hour, 7 minutes ago

For those who do not use the Discord channels:

VITA
"So...what would people think if we created a mechanic similar to penalties for failed elections, no gov office held, anarchy et cetera whereby if a realm had less than X nobles for X period of time, the realm would be made rogue (each day of X time-period having a warning message)? If the realm goes over the minimum noble requirement, the timer is reset."
"So, for example, what I'm specifically thinking is
If udner 10 nobles (or 5 on Colonies), you get 60 days to find a solution, or the realm is rogued on day 60. if a realm say gets 10 nobles for a week, and then goes back under 10, they restart at the full 60 days."

I find this very disheartening as it would basically see the end of Caelint 8, Angmar 8, Grehkia 8, Gotland 10, Ar Agyr 12, Nothoi 13.
So it would likely be better if all of the central realms decided to fold and join Thalmarkin or one of the Obean realms.
Any new members that join the Discord are usually advised that joining Thal or Obeah is the best choice.
Then we could all yell at each other from opposite ends of the map while sharing religious RP's.  Good times.



Harold Miller
jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 11:48 AM
From what I understand, after talking to a few people, this is an idea, not a certainty.

That being said, I personally would like to respectfully disagree. I believe that the variety of realms give players different ways to play their characters, and also make complicated, multi front battle possible.

There's merit to the comment on "dead" realms being terrible for player retention. That's valid. But perhaps rogueing the realm isn't the only solution. Maybe we put that activity onus on the ruler. We are responsible for the fun. It's a SOB in Thal to keep them entertained, and it takes work on my part. But I'm doing it. And it's working. Rulers, within reason, should be responsible for maintaining a certain level of activity. The only measurable metric for that would be sent letters I suppose. Putting a quota on it sounds like a horrible idea, but an initiative to increase activity, if only by TALKING, might help.

We all agree we have activity issues in plenty of places. There has to be more than one solution. One that doesn't see cultures that people care about removed only because of low noble count. We might be able to find other ways to accomplish this

PlaraveenLast Thursday at 11:55 AM
I understand that new players need some activity to gain their interest.  But there are MANY players that just do not have the time or "will/want" to sit around typing letters every day all the time.  We all come to this game for different reasons.  Should the players that don't want to spend hours each day writing RP's be punished for their level of play?
jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 11:55 AM
No, I don't think so.
But as rulers, there's another level of responsibility to the game and the players within your realm.
I'm just trying to find another solution that doesn't involve rogueing realms like this
I'm with ya
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 11:57 AM
Currently the only real executable conflict on BT involves 5 of the 6 realms that would be rogued with this idea.
jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 11:57 AM
Yep.. and that stinks
Could remove the distance caps I guess, or greatly soften them
But then it basically becomes SI
The small pockets of civilization all over, in the midst of invasion, is part of BT
I think the flavor, which the multitude of realms create, is very very important to the survival of the game on that continent
Abstract | Foote FamilyLast Thursday at 12:02 PM
3 realms would be affected if this idea was implemented, not 6. The number given was those that had less than 10 nobles.

Also, @Vita` , you wanted feedback so see above if you haven't already.
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 12:05 PM
Sadly Vita is of the opinion that small realms have nothing to offer the game.
The current actionable conflict on BT was started by two of the smallest realms on the continent

Vita`Last Thursday at 12:13 PM
What I find disheartening is the completely uncharitable interpretations of everything for no purpose other than to further divide the community. Nothing will change if we can't work together. BTW, developers do play the game. I'll answer more later when I don't feel so disheartened by assuming the worst of each other's intentions.
LancasterLast Thursday at 12:14 PM
The fact that small realms CAN contribute to the game overall doesn't mean that they all do
Generally, they trend to be quiet, isolationist. If I wasn't pushing some of the members of Fallangard to leave our borders, we probably never would
GreybrookLast Thursday at 12:25 PM
This is kind of why I am glad to see war in Dwilight and localised conflict in BT - makes engagement that involves realms of all sizes or makes governments have to make decisions to merge etc
jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 12:29 PM
Tried to be kind about it, and very constructive, Vita
jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 12:51 PM
Well then I my point has merit. If the rulers foster fun and activity, however they need to, whether it be religion, battle, RP.. then we'll see activity. I think that even the isolationist realms, if given the push by a ruler, can have fun. Or get crushed by another realm.. self maintenance.

And, @Vita` and @Delvin Anaris I know that we don't know the full picture behind the coding and what's possible, what's not. And I personally respect that, and the work you all do. However this group, the rulers, have their fingers on the pulse of this game like no others. Socially, we have a very very good idea of what's happening, and why. I mean this with the utmost respect, and I hope my well meaning words are not misconstrued
I still don't have an answer to the issue, which I agree exists. But I think I'm on to something. Accountability for the rulers, regarding activity. I wouldn't be offended if you asked me to prove I was doing my job

Vita`Last Thursday at 1:18 PM
Okay, getting back to this...
Yes, its only an idea, not a certainty. Hence seeking feedback.
I think there's merit to the variety of realm's line.
I think you've noticed we have been trying to stress the gov responsibilities more recently. :wink: But Titans aren't going to start investigating realms like the Secret Police and if people don't report issues, issues linger. We've spent years trying to emphasize to rulers the need to address these issues and while some have, others have just sat there 'waiting'. Waiting doesn't fix things.
I'm open to solutions, absolutely, but I also fundamentally question if a culture is cared about if it cant attract enough nobility and they don't actually do anything to maintain or pass on the culture, if the culture is 'only' the memory of past times. That's not culture, thats history. History can become culture again, certainly, but by and large, its been quite unlikely in the last five years.
BattleMaster is a social game based upon interactions. While you're not expected to constantly write, there should be something written. Especially as a government player.
There are only 3 realms on BT that would, at current noble counts, be made rogue if this were implemented and they went 60 days without being above 10 nobles. There's an exception to the no mergers rule for a reason. And if it were implemented, and on day 57 one of the realms got its 10th noble, the timer would stop. And if they lost a noble and went back down to 9, they would start all over at 0. The proposal is that it would take two months of sustained, continually under 10 nobles (or 5 for colonies). Each day giving a warning to the realm, the same as the warning you get for having no one in a government office, or being in anarchy.
Removing or softening distance caps....would be a step backwards.
I think flavor is important, but that there isn't flavor if realms aren't actually engaging one another or themselves. The mere existence of realms is not flavor. You have to actually interact to have flavor.
Thanks Abstract.
No, I'm of hte opinion that small realms, more often than not, provide a terrible experience to the game, especially for a new player's introduction to BattleMaster. Also, the game was not designed to have such realms. Its a disease, not something to be preserved. Exceptions have and can exist, but much like two characters on an island, more often than not it makes the game more static and less dynamic.
You were Jitney, and I appreciate it.
I'll be considering yours and Left's arguments and how to address those concerns.
The problem is Jitney, not all rulers bother to give a push. And not all realms have the players available to dedicate to playing such a character.
I'm not sure why you're telling me this. I'm the one who made the #rulers channel to increase communication, came up with the TODO for the ingame ruler-admin channel, and has pushed for more ruler involvement in community decisions. That's the way the community used to operate and what I've been pushing to get us back towards.
I appreciate the effort you put into BM and while I wouldn't refer to it as a 'job' (hey, its a game, lighten up :P), there are certain community responsibilities to playing a character in a government office. And I'm rather close to making an announcement that henceforth, dukes are included in the Government Rules too, since what a duke is now is not what a duke used to be when those rules were being formed. Anyway, accountability for rulers requires the community to uphold that accountablity. Everything comes down to community effort, to uphold accountability, atmosphere, rules, to cooperate to find solutions for hte playerbase decline et cetera.
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 4:03 PM
Out-of-Character from Glynkar Plaraveen
Message sent to the rulers of Beluaterra (9 recipients) - just in


No need to redraw a new map.
Maybe have Atamara rise from the sinking with many of the former regions lost to the ocean bottom.

Maybe allow only immigration from another continent?
Maybe make this only available to members of another continent (BT shares the same original map).
If you move your character from the existing continent to the new continent, then you give up your right to a character on the old one.

Maybe pose this offer to the players on BT (in-game so that everyone has a say).

Would you be willing to emigrate your existing character to this new island and give up the existing island for the betterment of the game?

If the response is positive enough, it may be worth considering for several of the continents.
Realms could start with their existing capitals and maybe one or two rurals to keep it fed.

Voluntary relocation to a new continent?


Harold Miller

PeregrineLast Thursday at 5:39 PM
I agree that tiny realms are terrible for the game. Especially as a new player experience.
DupontLast Thursday at 5:43 PM
Yeah, I remember when I joined Nova as a new player with a load of other people. There was a big RP event for our arrival and we assumed that was what the game was like.
But no, it was just everyone being excited for a bunch of new players
Because players realise that new players need to feel like there's a lot going on. A tiny realm will instantly discourage a new player if they joined
Vita`Last Thursday at 6:03 PM
It used to be like that...
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 7:53 PM
@Peregrine you say that tiny realms are terrible for the game yet you are in Grehkia, one of the smallest realms on BT?
@Dupont and yet you stayed even when the RP action died down.  Also a member of Swordfell, one of the smallest realms on Dwilight.
It seems to me that even the smallest of realms CAN have a draw for players.
I understand that many smaller realms do NOT appeal to everyone, but there are players who prefer a smaller realm.
I for one do not want 25-30 various RP's every turn requiring a reply.
To be honest, I have seen many RP's that I consider to be stupid, but hey, to each their own.  If it works for some people and others are willing to go with it, power to them.
When was the last time that something exciting happened in say... Shattered Vales?  I read discord fairly regular and don't recall anything exciting from one of the largest realms on BT.

jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 8:07 PM
I agree with plaraveen here. Any realm can be fun. I was in eppy on my last time playing and ruled there for a bit. We had what, 7 nobles? And we had fun. We even drew in a new noble or two. We were active, because we created the activity. I created it. Player of Aurelius created it.

We can make ANY realm fun. I don't think I'd love OS because I like a balance between RP and battle. But it's there for people who do.
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 8:09 PM
Exactly, your realm is as fun as you make it.  If your realm is not the kind of fun you are looking for, then move to another realm.  This is even stated in the game somewhere, if what you find is not what you expect, there are many more realms to find your fun in.
jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 8:10 PM
Which means, unfortunately, that some of us aren't doing enough to create that fun for everyone
There are quiet realms that like the peace, and then there are dead realms. All it takes is one player though.. One person to ignite something. Usually the ruler can help that happen, or be that person.

Before we make any mechanical changes, perhaps a message to all rulers in the game appealing to exactly this.
While the govt rules are read, I think people lose touch with the creating fun aspect. And that's fair, to a point.. we're allowed to have periods of inactivity, even a rulers. But if the ruler just coasts and lets the realm down, something is wrong.
Vita`Last Thursday at 8:15 PM
There aren't 25-30 various RPs every turn in any realm. There aren't even 25-30 various roleplays in a realm over a month's time.
There aren't even 25-30 roleplays in an island over a month's time.
oh. sorry. caveat. to realmwide channel.

[PolarRaven]

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jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 8:07 PM
I agree with plaraveen here. Any realm can be fun. I was in eppy on my last time playing and ruled there for a bit. We had what, 7 nobles? And we had fun. We even drew in a new noble or two. We were active, because we created the activity. I created it. Player of Aurelius created it.

We can make ANY realm fun. I don't think I'd love OS because I like a balance between RP and battle. But it's there for people who do.
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 8:09 PM
Exactly, your realm is as fun as you make it.  If your realm is not the kind of fun you are looking for, then move to another realm.  This is even stated in the game somewhere, if what you find is not what you expect, there are many more realms to find your fun in.
jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 8:10 PM
Which means, unfortunately, that some of us aren't doing enough to create that fun for everyone
There are quiet realms that like the peace, and then there are dead realms. All it takes is one player though.. One person to ignite something. Usually the ruler can help that happen, or be that person.

Before we make any mechanical changes, perhaps a message to all rulers in the game appealing to exactly this.
While the govt rules are read, I think people lose touch with the creating fun aspect. And that's fair, to a point.. we're allowed to have periods of inactivity, even a rulers. But if the ruler just coasts and lets the realm down, something is wrong.
Vita`Last Thursday at 8:15 PM
There aren't 25-30 various RPs every turn in any realm. There aren't even 25-30 various roleplays in a realm over a month's time.
There aren't even 25-30 roleplays in an island over a month's time.
oh. sorry. caveat. to realmwide channel.

PlaraveenLast Thursday at 8:16 PM
As a player, I MAKE my own fun.  As a ruler, I try to present opportunities to my realm mates to have fun.  Sadly, I can not force people to have fun.
Vita`Last Thursday at 8:16 PM
probably lots more to guilds, regions, other channels
jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 8:16 PM
I think that was just an arbitrary argument about their preference that plaraveen was making
Not wanting a RP heavy experience
Vita`Last Thursday at 8:17 PM
My point is that the argument is extreme.
I doubt even OS has 25-30 roleplays every turn.
The choice isnt between realms with reasonable amounts of messages traffic and those with constant activity.
The problem are there are realms that can go without realmwide messages for over a week.
Its harder to make exciting things happen if players are spread out and isolated.
jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 8:18 PM
That's not good. And their rulers should be talked to, imho
Vita`Last Thursday at 8:19 PM
Any realm can be fun. And any player can play two characters on an island as distinct characters. But that is not the rule, its the exception.
jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 8:20 PM
Rulers need to learn to be the exception then, for a start. How we go about that is anyone's guess though..
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 8:20 PM
just recently, I recall several players apologizing for being behind in their responses to RP's of others.  I play for the fun, not the responsibilities of needing to keep up with all the chatter.  Thats just me, but that is OK if that is acceptable to others
Vita`Last Thursday at 8:20 PM
Yes, you should move to places where you are having more fun. Absolutely. But that isn't an excuse to allow dead realms to linger because a few players insist on holding the last few titles.
"Before we make any mechanical changes, perhaps a message to all rulers in the game appealing to exactly this."
:face_palm:
What have we been doing for the last four years?

jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 8:21 PM
I don't know, I'm new on the ruler scene this time around and haven't heard anything
There's discord, but that's not covering everyone at all
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 8:22 PM
Being a small realm does not always imply no room for fun or inactivity of players.  Just like a large realm does not mean the realm is fun or active.
Vita`Last Thursday at 8:22 PM
"And that's fair, to a point.. we're allowed to have periods of inactivity, even a rulers. But if the ruler just coasts and lets the realm down, something is wrong." <--Yes, absolutely. But again, we're not going to go on witch hunts of rulers. That's not a positive playing atmosphere.
jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 8:22 PM
Well
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 8:22 PM
Discord represents a very small number of players (the more active/RP ones specifically)
jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 8:23 PM
It's between upsetting a large amount of the player base, including some active ones, or getting personal with a few rulers who, honestly, should not be surprised by dev contact. They're rulers.
Vita`Last Thursday at 8:24 PM
The thing is
I've had talks with some rulers repeatedly over years
Who will tell me, 'oh yes, this is a problem'
'im working on it'
and nothing changes
jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 8:26 PM
We want to help you guys, and help ourselves by reigniting this. I don't know much about the past and trends, etc. Idk what you've tried. But I want to help. And I have a lot of contact with active players. I know what they want. Everyone on this channel has that contact, that knowledge. We'll help you if we can.. Just keep listening to us, please. We're trying to help. I just feel like you're defending yourself Vita, and I know I want what you want, or what I think you want.
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 8:27 PM
^^
jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 8:27 PM
I always felt like there was a pretty decent sized responsibility on me as a ruler. The game implied that, and the wiki. I took it seriously.. maybe some didn't, but give us a chance
Vita`Last Thursday at 8:27 PM
Yeah, absolutely.
That's what we keep trying to do.
But likewise, it doesn't feel reciprocated after such a period.
If we'd wanted to wipe realms out, we'd have done it when we sunk islands.
But I specifically advocated for more gradual, dynamic pressures to give realms and rulers opportunity to move.
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 8:31 PM
People regularly complain about Madina and Nivemus, yet people still play in these realms.  Rea recently went to Madina to stir up trouble.  The players there were active enough to "repel" his attack on them.   Complaining about what others are doing is not helping the game.  If you feel those realms should be more active and are dying off, move to another realm and pursue a mission to wipe them from the map.
Vita`Last Thursday at 8:33 PM
Is it playing to sit in the realm and not write one another?
Rea didn't bother to build proper support before stirring up trouble and managed to turn supporters against them
Much like when realms would try to do something different on Atamara and then got gangbanged because they rushed it too fast isntead of laying diplomatic groundwork.
IC solutions are not appropriate solutions to OOC issues plaguing BM.
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 8:35 PM
I am not defending Madina, but complaining from afar and doing nothing about it is not productive either.
Vita`Last Thursday at 8:37 PM
I would also say that I think Rea has sparked some sustained discussion in Madina
we'll see how long it lasts
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 8:39 PM
If all the players that have complained on Discord about Madina got together and actively pursued an action (war/diplomacy/...) against them, the players in Madina would need to get their !@#$ together or fall.  I don't know the actual numbers, but I would guess that I have seen more than 10 different people say that Madina should merge/die/be wiped out.  If thsoe ten people got together, Madina would change one way or the other.
Vita`Last Thursday at 8:39 PM
yup, I agree
alas, I think they're spread out through other realms they enjoy.
But I would also say that pursuing those objectives ICly while fine, should not be limited to IC solutions. The issue is an OOC one of game enjoyability and new player retention, it should not be solved only via 'fight them IC'.
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 8:41 PM
Complaining does not help, but the current situation in Madina allows lots of room for fun for others if they put the effort into its destruction.
Vita`Last Thursday at 8:42 PM
or improvement.
im really not that concerned either way with whether the realms are destroyed or improved, so long as the overall experience improves. very agnostic on method. if we could recruit players to populate all the lands, that would be ideal. in lieu of that...if folks need to merge, destroy realms, switch realms, migrate realms, revitalize a realm et cetera....wahtever works. I do absolutely think there are too many realms on the islands for the current player count and we need less.
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 8:43 PM
I understand the need to retain new players, but that should NOT be the basis of decisions that affet all of the existing players as well.  Some of us have been playing for years and honestly, our needs should be considered as well.
Vita`Last Thursday at 8:44 PM
They are. But not at the cost to new players, which may not be you, and may only be my perception, but is the perception I get from some older players, that their 'right' to play in a realm they love trumps new players being given a fair shot at being interested in BM.
I've gotten yelled at by newer players for implementing old features that were approved for older playesr long ago because 'we didnt get a say in this, no one told us it was happening'
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 8:47 PM
Well, some changes that haven;t been discussed for a long time could maybe use a quick note to existing players.   Some of the recent changes from long ago have come as a surprise to many players.  Can't recall specific example here, but recall recent complaints as you mention.
Vita`Last Thursday at 8:47 PM
Heck, I've even implemented old approved features that were championed by former players in the hopes it might attract them back to the game. :stuck_out_tongue:
yeah, we're not the best at roadmaps. better at announcements. which is more than what used to happen in BM. Again, something else I've pushed for, to help the players be more informed.
the irony of providing that helpful info is I get yelled at for them afterward :smile:
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 8:52 PM
Not complaining, but I was broadsided by the Wealth list when it was implemented.  It is not really a problem, but it is something that I would have "fought against" had I had foreknowledge.  I did not and I have not complained after the fact because there no sense in complaining about a done deal that no one else is concerned about.
A simple announcement a few days ahead of time would likely be much better accepted than surprise, the update yesterday included... :smiley:
Another thing I find slightly confusing and contradictory is that the DEVs seem to be pushing for larger realms but they are limiting alliances to smaller sizes.
LancasterLast Thursday at 9:03 PM
Two separate problems
One involves realms being more than quiet graveyards of people just logging in to follow orders, while the other is that we've basically re-enacted WWI with both recent wars. Half the world allied against the other half.
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 9:07 PM
OK, but 40 nobles in a realm is not really any different than 40 nobles in an alliance when it comes to fighting a war.
LancasterLast Thursday at 9:10 PM
Its more than that, its about communication. Separate realms stifle communication and gameplay. Its why realm splits never work in the long run. One half of the realm always dies relatively quickly and just gets re-absorbed without a ton of effort
Even shared guildhouses only go so far.
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 9:17 PM
I am not up on Obeahan politics, but if I understand correctly, their split could lead to a war between former realm  members.  So splitting realms may not always be a bad thing.  Depends on what and how the PLAYERS do with the split.
LancasterLast Thursday at 9:18 PM
sure, there's always initial interest and excitement. But what happens if the war doesn't happen, SV/Nova/Obia all sign a typical alliance
PlaraveenLast Thursday at 9:18 PM
The Circle of Fate on EC seems to do quite well for the northern realms.
That leads back to my original concern of rogueing smaller realms.  Most of the central BT realms would be at risk leaving Thal in the north and Obean realms in the south.  The small realms of Gotland and Caelint are the source ofthe current war involving 6 of the 10 realms on BT.  Likely the obeahan realms would have jumped in on this war if they were not so far away
To be honest, several of us in the north tried to get them involved anyways.
I believe that OS even had their army embarked at one point and found themselves stuck at sea (bug) before they got too far.  Then things changed in the south and they moved on to their own problems/concerns.

[PolarRaven]

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PlaraveenLast Thursday at 9:51 PM
@Lancaster If I read your comments correctly, you seem "against" having smaller realms, but I see that you are currently in Fallengard (smallest realm on EC) and Swordfell (tied with 2 others for smallest).
LancasterLast Thursday at 10:07 PM
Dwilight is probably the healthiest continent overall in terms of noble counts, the dang thing is just so big
I am against smaller realms, and am doing what I can to fix it. Unfortunately in Fallangard, I've got folks that are staunchly anti-merger and in Swordfell we had a bit of a purge recently. We had 20+ nobles like a month ago
Abstract | Foote FamilyLast Thursday at 10:08 PM
OS wouldn't have been in the Caelint-Gotland war. We would have simply been fighting Thalmarkin for our own reasons. Probably even before the Caelint-Gotland war even started.
LancasterLast Thursday at 10:09 PM
BT has other issues besides realm sizes. The continent is so damn big Nova was created basically so OS nobles would have people to interact with
Abstract | Foote FamilyLast Thursday at 10:09 PM
I think small realms are but a symptom of the problem. The real problem is there aren't enough players for the number of regions. This leads to pockets of isolation which leads to smaller realms not having a force driving their death or resurgence.
BT would be in great shape if the south moved north or vice versa. The problem is getting people to do it.

LancasterLast Thursday at 10:33 PM
yeah, I don't think people will do that though
Abstract | Foote FamilyLast Thursday at 10:46 PM
Well there are some problems with moving.

A) They have spent a lot of time in the area. The area becomes part of their identity. (this mostly applies to SV & OS but Nova feels this too.)

B) The places to move to will be a decrease in gold and difficulty with food.

C) Moving away from allies and towards a large enemy means death could come swiftly. Notably because it will take time to stabilize in the new area. Even with stabilization, without your allies moving too your chances are not good.
Personally, I don't care about those three issues. Others do however so that prevents them from agreeing to the move. Regardless, an attempt should still be made.

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take."
Vita`Last Thursday at 11:07 PM
Does nomad need faster-stabilization effects?
Abstract | Foote FamilyLast Thursday at 11:28 PM
I don't know. Never used nomad so I can't make a real judgement on it.
jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 11:28 PM
What if you removed some swaths of rogue land and loosened the distance from realm limits for armies. With a continent surrounded by sea zones it'd be fun to fight those battles further away.

As for the map.. if we can gather the volunteers to do it on our own?

Just a thought
Abstract | Foote FamilyLast Thursday at 11:29 PM
jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 11:30 PM
Or just loosen the limits? Admittedly this is just a small thing that lets a few larger realms make war, and doesn't really address (not head on, at least) retention or smaller/dead realms.
Interesting. Fixing the map how? Just curious.
Abstract | Foote FamilyLast Thursday at 11:31 PM
Don't know.
This isn't from my conversation with Delvin. I was having a conversation with a player who then went to Delvin which resulted in the above screenshot. I want to say the question he asked Delvin was based on loosening the distance penalties.
(The reason I shared it was based on the map change comment you made.)
jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 11:36 PM
Oh, cool. That's very relevant. Thanks! The easiest fix, requiring little in the way of map editing (but possibly a bitch in coding) might be to black out those regions, RP some magic insanity, barriers going up, that instantly transport you across them to the other side of the swath. Maybe a sea zone, that doesn't look like a sea zone.

Going off the deep end here. But in the spirit of ideas, there it is.
I don't know. Shrinking the map without removing realms is the basic concept though. Maybe there's a different way to get that done

Vita`Last Thursday at 11:55 PM
Loosening distance....no
Marching far distances for a battle and turning around isn't fun.
There will be changes when hinterlands comes on, as part of the core realm benefits, which will improve travel speed.
Which is a key reason I'm willing to try hinterlands.
We could reuse blight but do you really think that would make a difference and not get just as many complaints as having rogue regions?
I thought it better to leave regions rogue so realms can have choice of where to exist
Versus choose to remove regions from play and player choice and flexibility...
jitney | BlueLast Thursday at 11:59 PM
But with distance caps we can't fight the wars we want to. Infils come up, stab around, we declare war, yet can't comfortably, or viably fight the war
Idk. It's a small thing. Hinterlands could fix some of that maybe
Vita`Last Friday at 12:00 AM
Why can't you move closer to your enemies?
jitney | BlueLast Friday at 12:01 AM
Move the realm?
We spend tons of time on RCs, development. You carve out a good space
To build up a force capable of fighting those wars
Vita`Last Friday at 12:04 AM
sigh
jitney | BlueLast Friday at 12:04 AM
There's history in it. And on BT with the invasion we carve out bastion of defense
Bananas to up and move with that looming, no?
Vita`Last Friday at 12:04 AM
Which was done after how many statements about the need to move realms closer?
jitney | BlueLast Friday at 12:05 AM
I don't understand
What do you mean?
Vita`Last Friday at 12:05 AM
There's no invasion coming anytime soon
PlaraveenLast Friday at 12:05 AM
Jit is Thal I think, not Obeah
jitney | BlueLast Friday at 12:05 AM
I'm for moving them closer. Or removing the distance limit. Or anything that increases fun
Tossing out ideas
Yeah I'm in Thal
Abstract | Foote FamilyLast Friday at 12:06 AM
I'm all for OS & Nova moving up north too but I can't make all the players move.
Vita`Last Friday at 12:07 AM
We've been saying this is an issue and trying to patiently work with rulers to move realms, merge realms, abandonn realms anything for almost four years.....in that time the choice is made to build infrastructure rather than migrate. Then when war is distant one can't move because of the cost to abandon the built-up infrastructure...
So it's a bit...."well that's the choice you made"
I can't fix choices you make when there  were options available.
O can only give tools and point to them
But if folks don't use them ...or offer suggestions on how to improve them....
jitney | BlueLast Friday at 12:08 AM
Fair enough. I don't see why we couldn't conquer and migrate down into Grehkia and wudenkin area. That'd make us more central.

Though I missed that talk about merge and move
Vita`Last Friday at 12:09 AM
Then yes, you find yourselves far away from wars with infrastructure that is too costly to abandon....
jitney | BlueLast Friday at 12:09 AM
Well I'm trying to offer some now! I'm newer than most here in this particular channel. Missed the memo
Vita`Last Friday at 12:09 AM
And yes I understand you weren't personally there
But that is the thalmarkin you represent.
jitney | BlueLast Friday at 12:10 AM
This is very difficult to do. Why does this feel like an argument, when I thought it was more of a think tank. Now I'm defending myself..
Vita`Last Friday at 12:11 AM
So do you think we need changes to nomad to allow some transition of infrastructure?

PlaraveenLast Friday at 12:11 AM
I am not sure how Nomad works, but might it be possible to allow Obeah to "swap out" a bunch of regions say maybe in the Wudenkin area?  Maybe allow some "transfer of some of their infrastructure to speed the process of settling in? ie.  RC's and other buildings in their capital moved to Wudenkin?
Vita`Last Friday at 12:12 AM
There an announcement from sometime in last year that lists nomad benefits

[PolarRaven]

PAGE 4

jitney | BlueLast Friday at 12:12 AM
Infrastructure period is very expensive, anywhere. If you want to be an effective realm it takes months to develop something viable
Abstract | Foote FamilyLast Friday at 12:12 AM
The idea I had was for OS to get Keffa and Nova Wudenkin. Which is why you got letter about a hypothetical situation Plaraveen.
Nova doesn't want to move though and the push in OS is likely to fail.
PlaraveenLast Friday at 12:14 AM
If an attractive enough offer can be made to the players it may be more palatable to more people?
Abstract | Foote FamilyLast Friday at 12:14 AM
Maybe. People are resistant to change though.
When I initially brought up the idea of OS moving back in about December I was told that this is a PVE island. This type of mentality presents a BT unique issue. You see it in Grehkia as well.
Nomad:

"As some may recall, nomad status was given to realms during the Freeze and Close of Western Dwilight events to migrate to new homes. As a reminder, nomad status grants the following bonuses:

*No distance from realm penalty for troops
*Troop payment costs 10% of normal and no troop payment after the capital is lost
*Can take over regions without bordering them
*Can be given regions by other rulers without bordering their realms
*A special drafting option for more soldiers being drafted in exchange for higher morale cost to the region
*Takeovers complete twice as fast as other realms
*Takeovers require a third of what other realms require to start a takeover"

https://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,8569.0.html
PlaraveenLast Friday at 12:23 AM
Considering that this (to my knowledge) is a feature that has been mostly unused, I think it may need to be adjusted to make it more appealing.  We all know that something must be done on BT, so I think it may be worthwhile to adjust the Nomad feature for this case to make it more appealing for the players to do "what is best" for the Island?
Abstract | Foote FamilyLast Friday at 12:27 AM
This feature hasn't been used since it was reintroduced. I'm not sure if giving additional benefits to the feature would result in it being used but it might.

Vita: "So do you think we need changes to nomad to allow some transition of infrastructure?"

Maybe. I think it would help make moving less costly but not sure it would be enough to get people to move. I see the infrastructure as just one factor in people not wanting to move.
PlaraveenLast Friday at 1:17 AM
Might it be possible to raise some of the lands se of former Fronen, at the cost of sinking some of the OS lands to the south?  I don't recall the area specifically, but I amfairly sure there was a fair chunk of land there before it sunk.  It could help to concentrate the players and still make the area appealing to more players.


GreybrookLast Friday at 3:06 AM
Last year when @Abstract | Foote Family brought up the OS move up north, I was against it. However, wiser with BM age, it isn't good for the island to have such a large part of the player base so far away.
It seems that the difficulty is that without changing the map, what can be done? Like Rines is one of the richest cities in game. So moving to a X<1500 city is hard to swallow
I have always been prepared to do what needs to be done for the better of the game but there is alot of heritage in the OS realm which people need to be sure that it isn't worth nothing.
HarteYesterday at 10:23 AM
Fronen is in a terrible spot. Middle of everything. Absolutely need Tindle because of the food supply but it borders so many regions and is one of the main regions to travel from the north to south and vice versa. So many rogues. Wudenkin isn't all that wealthy and has near 50k? peasants. The Rines is located on a little island away from the major wars because it's a very nice city. Just like Eno was in the Kingdom of Alluran. I think Eno was better than the Rines and even easier to defend since it was located at the very southern tip.
I have always supported a map-changed on BT. Ever since the blight happened, I've highly disliked playing on Beluaterra.
But that would need an invasion to happen cause map changes only happen during continental-wide events
PeregrineYesterday at 3:16 PM
@Plaraveen I have a character in Hrehkia because said character has a mission to check out every realm on BT. Caelint is a graveyard, btw.
PlaraveenYesterday at 4:29 PM
@Peregrine Is Grehkia in any better shape than Caelint?  Caelint, at least is actively involved in a war.  I understand that many players enjoy RP's, but not everyone is playing BattleMaster for the RP interaction.  RP's is only one element of the game, but many people seem to feel it is a requirement to enjoy the game.  I have been playing for about 10 years now and have quite thoroughly enjoyed myself without actively participating in the many RP opportunities that have been shared.          Fried Chicken???  Really???  I am not saying that this has no place in the game, but I believe that there is more to be gained from fighting an active war than discussing a fried chicken restaurant chain.  (I do not mean to pick on whomever is involved in the fried chicken discussion, it was just the first notable example that came to my mind.)
jitney | BlueYesterday at 4:37 PM
We have had little RP in Thal. A few battle RPs. Nothing big or frequent. Just more conversation. More activities, side quests, etc.  And I involve everyone with as much of everything as possible. Lot of work, lot of reward.
PlaraveenYesterday at 4:42 PM
I think it boils down to WHY are people playing the game?  For me, the war aspect is far more exciting than sitting in a realm sending stories back and forth.  For many others, it seems, they would be happy to sit in an isolated realm on the edge of humanity just sending RP's back and forth.  Before Obeah split, what was there really available for the players there to do other than send RP's back and forth?  So, that version of OS worked for many of the players who enjoy the RP aspect, but what action was available for those players that would prefer "action" to "story telling"?
RakaaroxYesterday at 4:44 PM
Ideally you have both
PlaraveenYesterday at 4:47 PM
It seems in recent times, the measurement of FUN has been measured by the amount of messaging that occurs in a realm.  To measure "RP fun" in this matter would seem acceptable, but I believe that it is a poor way to measure the fun that all people are having.  A realm is deemed as not fun when the players there are not actively sending letters on a regular basis.
I agree @Rakaarox but lately it seems that a realm with few nobles and little communication is considered bad for the game and no fun for the players.  Yet, these small realms that are not flooded with tons of messages every day still exist.  People still join and/or stay in these realms.  If these realms are so bad, WHY are there still players that have nobles in these realms?  No one is forcing these players to have nobles in a small non-talkative realm, they choose to be there.
RakaaroxYesterday at 4:54 PM
Little communication is different to almost zero communication
And that is the bigger issue
jitney | BlueYesterday at 5:03 PM
Agreed. And you CAN have communication with no action, per se. And I think that is where the ruler and council come in
Creating that kind of fun, wars, things to RP. That's on us to a degree
We are literally starting a war over a unique item.
PlaraveenYesterday at 5:03 PM
I am not sure what actually happens in Madina, but it is often a realm that is "picked on" and considered "bad".  My question is, why do people bother to stay there/ move there?
jitney | BlueYesterday at 5:04 PM
Yeah idk... Can't answer that one
PlaraveenYesterday at 5:04 PM
There is obviously some sort of appeal to some players that keeps Madina alive.
RakaaroxYesterday at 5:06 PM
Stuck in their ways
Like the income and power without having to do anything
They are bad because if new players join the game in realms like that, they won’t stay, they won’t bring new players
I got rid of Fissoa for that reason
PeregrineYesterday at 5:13 PM
@Plaraveen Grehkia is also terrible. Caelint still worse though. You don't even get orders in time in Caelint. There's no way a new player will have a decent experience in a small realm. You do you though.
PlaraveenYesterday at 5:16 PM
Income and power.  I can't say for the income, but what power does the ruler of Madina really wield?  Only one person, the ruler, is on the wealth list (and 15K gold is not much compared to others).  Madina has (in my opinion) no real affect on the overall situation/politics of Dwi.  So, no real power or income to make it worthwhile.  I can't say why Madina still exists, but I doubt it is for the income or power.
RakaaroxYesterday at 5:17 PM
Nostalgia (misplaced)
It’s not the original Madina
jitney | BlueYesterday at 5:18 PM
Wealth farming perhaps
And occasional rogue fights
Albeit minimal wealth
But it's enough to keep the family from going broke
If you're investing elsewhere
RakaaroxYesterday at 5:18 PM
Not going to be around for much longer though, has voted to merge with D’Hara
jitney | BlueYesterday at 5:19 PM
That's good
PlaraveenYesterday at 5:22 PM
My character on Dwi has a comparable amount of gold as Madina's ruler.  He only recently took on a Lordship more to help the realm than to be a lord (which is actually an inconvenience to him).  So I really doubt that gold farming is the reason that Madina still exists.
RakaaroxYesterday at 5:23 PM
Misplaced nostalgia... as I said
PlaraveenYesterday at 5:41 PM
I understand the need to retain new players for the game.  But at what cost?  I have played for almost 10 years and have finally managed to form a realm of my own design (I was a ruler previously, but was elected into the position of a realm that already existed).  I have no problem with my realm failing due to a military defeat, but I feel it is sad that I may loose my realm/investment because others feel that it is too small and not "chatty" enough.  It is not like we get 50 new players joining every month and then deciding not to play because the realm is too quiet.  I believe that "rogueing" smaller realms because of the shortage of nobles/messages in them is more likely to cost more in long-term players than the benefit of not having them will give to retaining new players.
Even if I decided to leave Caelint and join Thal or Obeah, there would be no overall change in my messaging habits.  Just because the players of the smaller realms join a larger more chatty realm, does not imply that they will be more actively involved in messaging.  There are players that are more active (regardless of the realm they are in) and there are players that are not as active.
From the BattleMaster Home Page:
"Depending on your desires and your characters' tasks, you can spend as little as 10 minutes per day on your characters, or over an hour based on what you want to do, roleplay, and achieve each day."
There are those who will often spend hours each day with their involvement in the game, while there are those who may not even spend the minimum 10 minutes each day.  Who is to say which one is having more "fun" in their gameplaying style?
jitney | BlueYesterday at 6:37 PM
A fair point at the end there... Though the declining player count seems to indicate there's less fun being had all around
Delvin AnarisYesterday at 9:06 PM
@Plaraveen actually, what we do get is just about 50 players joining the game each month
and about half leave
jitney | BlueYesterday at 9:19 PM
Hmmm. Do you know if the ones who leave end up in realms with low activity? Is there a trend? Just curious.
PlaraveenYesterday at 10:33 PM
Well, it is good to know that I do get lucky with throwing out random numbers once in a while.  :smiley:
Thinking about it, your statement would imply that our player base is growing at about 25 players per month minus the old guys that fade away...?

[PolarRaven]

Sorry everyone.  The information is there, but it looks a little tough to read.
Everything since the start of the discussion in the Rulers channel on Discord is included.
Some of it may be less relevant, but I have included it all to allow no bias by me selecting parts of the discussion to include.

[PolarRaven]

PAGE 5

Rowan1364Today at 4:42 AM
I think we should brainstorm about coming up with a way to entice new players to stay
Adventurers have a sort of mini game going on within the game itself. Battlemaster emphasizes team game and strategy so we can't really affect the turn change way of things, and we can't really do much that would affect the outcome of battles perse. But maybe some kind of way to affect skill growth in between turns?
Or perhaps some kind of political mini game
You know how Diplomats are always going on about minor nobility and such like that
Could do a sort of contact related mini game that would give bonuses to Diplomacy actions or higher skill raise chance or something.
I know it's kind of a fundamental core change in philosophy but don't we kind of do that already? You just have to be a Courtier or Diplomat or Priest subclass
And is trader still a thing?
Basically I'm saying, sure, there's battles and such, but in between battles is a sore lacking of traditional RPG elements. We have to entertain ourselves with RP and that seems to be the lifeline the game clings to. If we can spice the character development side of it up a bit maybe we can incentivize in game leveling so to speak. Give players a solo reason to stick around and then develop a bond with the people around them and naturally want to go into more RP side of things
Sure we have Courtier, Diplomat, Priest, Infiltrator, Cavalier, but no one is hit with that when they log in
Present it like Class mechanics like it's a MMORPG or tabletop RPG except the "way to level" is getting into battles with your realm.
Maybe that will incentivize this Touch Phone AFK Arena Generation
Maybe even add bonuses for certain positions
So people try and aspire to them for selfish reasons
Like a... Idk. Discount for paying troops for bankers? Judge bonuses for Courtiers? Though that's kind of a thing since they can hold courts
So then people learn positions in retrospect
Right now there really isn't anything like that for players to hold on to or aspire to. I think that's part of the reason we have such a high early drop rate
Without shiny graphics, or anime tiddies, lol,
We should get something that's kind of a hook for newbies so they learn to stick around
It won't work for everyone but I think it might be enough to get another generation of players started
But anyway that's enough solo brain storming
Honestly, Tom isn't around anymore. I think it's time we scrap some of his ideals
Fame needs to be implemented in a way that at least some of it is transparent and listed. Like achievements to aspire to.
Skills need to be present and more readily attainable. Going to an academy/tournament/occasionally earning them in battle isn't enough
Needs to be something you can earn solo in addition to battles
Adventurers won't be phased out because they will always have the artifact game and undead/monster hunting

[Gildre]

Honestly, Tom isn't around anymore. I think it's time we scrap some of his ideals

This bothers me big time. BattleMaster is still legally and in reality Tom's game. It goes how he wants/instructed. Suggest changes/improvements, but it is an ugly idea to wantonly change someone's property for our own selfish reasons, ignoring their desires.

Additionally, thank you for posting three pages of Discord chatter, but is there any chance you could paraphrase the main points into a tl;dr. The vast majority of people do not want to wade through that thicket of words and ramblings.

[Zakky]

It doesn't matter Tom isn't here. The whole game is built on his idea. I remember when there was a discussion on which continent to sink. Tom actually heard about this and stated EC was a big no no. If EC goes, so will the game. Rules he made for the game is still being upheld. Like many said before, BM is still his game.

[Zakky]

Thx for sharing this PolarRaven.

I think small realms still play the role. Right out rogueing them isn't the way to go. I thought Vita has learned a thing or two from forcing people to do things they don't want to no matter how much he thinks those are good for the game. How many people does he want to drive away this time around?

I think small realms should get gentle reminders every day instead. Once you fall below 10 nobles, the game should once a day tell the whole realm to either get more people or merge with another realm that has less than 20 nobles.

[Abstract]

A reminder each day sounds a bit excessive. A week or month would be a more reasonable time frame for automated reminders if such a thing was implemented.

[Rizky]

if the problem is just for new players, just restrict the joining options (to join realm with low player count) only for them at the start. let older players do what they want as it is right now. if the realm count in a continent is lower i think you will face another problem. conflict in BT is caused by 2 small realms because there are only few people in them, its easier to convince/make decision for the realm with 10 people than 20 people. smaller realms are more flexible. just giving out some ideas :)

[Tourmaline]

if the problem is just for new players, just restrict the joining options (to join realm with low player count) only for them at the start. let older players do what they want as it is right now. if the realm count in a continent is lower i think you will face another problem. conflict in BT is caused by 2 small realms because there are only few people in them, its easier to convince/make decision for the realm with 10 people than 20 people. smaller realms are more flexible. just giving out some ideas :)

This is actually a great solution. Simply don't let new accounts with less than, say 60 days of game time, join realms with less than 11 nobles.

Although I am for roguing realms with less than 10 players if they maintain that state for 60 days too.

[Zakky]

That is actually a great idea.

[Medron Pryde]

I do like the idea of limiting new players to realm of over 10 nobles.

And checking total messages sent in a realm may be a good idea too.  Realms that don't talk much may go off the list of realms that can accept new players.

It would focus new players into realms with more nobles and more activity.

As for the rest...I find it ironic that Nothoi formed two of the realms now considered too small.  Caelint and Angmar both came out of Nothoi back when we all had more players and more ability to expand.  The the banning of Angmar's leader messed them up rather badly.  And Caelint never did expand much beyond being a border realm.  Though they and the equally small Gotland and have certainly created their fair share of chaos for everybody around them.  Hehehe.

I'm not in favoring of roguing nations with other under 10 nobles, but I could be convinced that those of 5 nobles and under should be rogued.  I don't know.  Maybe 10 works too.  I dislike seeing people's hard work go away, but at the same time, I am in favor of getting some focus in players.

Just remember that we don't want to focus everything so tightly that we end up in another situation like the Cagilan/Taran alliance where each nation held sway over massive sections of the continent with no one in a position to deal with them.

[Gildre]

I like the idea of an activity gauge. Perhaps though, it should be letters per capita? A large realm might send more letters, but be less active, just due to number of nobles.