Discord, the realities of the BM community, inclusion

[Anaris]

I will put this as simply as possible - you are saying the discord and the zeitgeist it presents has zero effects on the game?

Of course not, that would be absurd.

I'm saying that Discord and the zeitgeist it presents has a positive effect on the game.

In the case of Sigrid, that I didn't read on discord "someone talk to Sigrid so she can flip Bruck"?

I don't know if you read that, but that's not what happened.

I am curious what the official directive is on the limits of this. As long as the note is written in BM proper, anything is justifiable?

If two or more people discuss on Discord an RP situation they want to play out in-game, then play it out in-game, that is fine.

If two or more people discuss on Discord a battle plan they want to enact in-game, then they lay it out in-game and give the orders, that is fine.

If two or more people discuss on Discord a betrayal of a realm, then have the situations that lead up to it play out in-game, that is fine.

If two or more people discuss something on Discord and then have that trigger in-game events with zero in-game justification, that is, at best, not fine. But that's not what happens in 99% of casesâ€"and, again, you not knowing about the in-game justifications does not mean they do not exist. (Though I would very, very strongly encourage players to make at least the barest hints of in-game justifications for events like major betrayals ahead of timeâ€"which, in the cases at hand, did happen, so, no problem!)

For the entire life of BM, people have planned certain events outside the game. Some of these plans have been healthy, some have not, but if we banned planning in-game events on Discord, those who genuinely want to create unrest by doing so would have no problem taking it to Discord PMs, email, IRC, WhatsApp, or (as some groups have in the past) just talking to each other in person, if they're in close physical proximityâ€"while those who just want to plan something fun and interesting without having to go through the much-more-cumbersome in-game message system to do so would be punished for it.

The second point also concerns the devs so I will present it - I have never claimed you are at the beck and call of a tier of players.

You may not have. Some have, and there have been enough similar discussions in the recent past that it is possible I inadvertently mixed you up with some of those who did. If so, I apologize; I have no desire to put words in anyone's mouth.

I will say when the devs can put a "give feedback" button on the account pages to get a broad perspective, why wouldn't they? The question is not an attack.

We have invited feedback over every medium available to us, and here you are, giving feedback over one of those media. I suppose we could add a "feedback" subforum or something, and link to it...? But that wouldn't really give any more options than currently exist...

I have never said you are opinion less and totally manipulated. I've asked are you infallible and immune to persuasion?

Infallible? No.
Immune to persuasion? Well, maybe you could convince me I am... ;D

Of course no one's immune to persuasion, but 99% of the time, when Player X is complaining that I've been influenced to do things a certain way, either a) I was already planning to do the thing before Player X's in-game enemies suggested it, b) the thing they wanted me to do made sense and was the right thing to do regardless of its impact on a particular in-game situation (which I was fully aware of), or c) the incident in question was a Titan case or other matter of rulebreaking, where, y'know, the person had actually broken the rules.

My final point was elaborated on by Gildre. I urge everyone to take a moment and think about it. What has been written on discord already about this?

Gildre and Iâ€"and the Titans, more generallyâ€"have begun discussing this, and I have asked for specific examples, because personally, I cannot recall specific instances of this happening, but I am genuinely concerned about itâ€"not just that it has been happening without my realizing it, but that I could have been among those leading people to feel unheard and invalidated. That is definitely not the atmosphere I want to create here.

I want to be clear, though: While I want to ensure people feel accepted and heard in the Discord as in the game, I still will not tolerate blatant disrespect for other players, volunteers, or Vita and me. Conspiracy theories, casual accusations of bias, and other forms of insulting behaviour are and will remain completely unacceptable.

[Luitolf]

There are a few things to unpack here.

First of all, Nivemus is in not way being attacked "because discord". That is an absolute ridiculous notion. Nivemus is a target because they both essentially have rogue lands they hold on to, meaning several regions they could never put a lord in, and their own actual in character actions. I can personally attest to this as I was in Nivemus. I went there, did as I was told, marched with the armies, and yet was kicked out of every estate I ever took. I was told that I must march with the armies, and when I brought up that I could not afford a unit because I couldn't take and estate, I was told I was a trouble maker and that I should leave. This has happened to more than one person that I have seen. I was a brand new player back then and had no idea even what a Titan was, so don't come at me about "Oh why didn't you report them!!!!". This is an absolutely horrendous way to treat a new player, and yes, Brock as the ruler, was as directly responsible for this treatment as the rest of the council and the lords in question of the regions. If I did not already have other characters elsewhere, and know that the entire game wasn't like that, I likely would have quit the game completely. In fact, I did quit EC completely for a long while, and only came back because some on discord actually convinced me that it was worth trying other realms. I had though this is how EC played and I wanted no part of that absolute trash of treatment to players. And before people come in asking me "what I did", because I was hounded with those same questions on discord from some, not a damn thing. I joined the realm, and was told to march with the army. I did so. I was kicked out of estates, never allowed to have one. In fact, I have never met the armies of the north in combat the entire time I have played BM, even when I had a character in the south. Yet, while I was in Nivemus I did fight against the south several times. Was still treated as nothing more than a stat stick to move around as they pleased. I'm sorry, but these are inexcusable actions and if I had known what the titans were at the time I 100% would have reported this crap. I am not the only one that has been treated badly there.


Secondly,  it is not discords fault that things change. At least the people on discord can be confronted. Unlike those that hide in the Admin/OOC chat in game. If you want discord to have your view point, you need to rejoin and have more people with your view join as well. There has actually been a lot of discussions among the admins and moderators in how to reign in the more toxic personalities on discord, but no matter how much is brought in, other view points will never been seen if people only come in as ones and twos. A single voice is rarely heard, but thats doesn't mean they are less valid. There is more than one way to play this game. There always will be. None of them are wrong, even if some people don't have fun with some ways to play. I'm not overly found of just marching to war endlessly. I don't hate it, but it that's all there is I'll pass. Others love it, it's why they play. They aren't wrong for wanting to play that way. The main issue I see, and I have expressed this both on discord and in game both to other players as well as the mods and admins, is that there very clearly is 2 sides forming, and both sides view the other as the enemy. This is what is wrong with the game. Neither side is the enemy. They are just two different ways to play and have fun. What we need is to find a compromise between the 2 sides so that both sides can have fun without ruining the fun of the other side.

[Gildre]

I think there are really good points and counterpoints being brought up here, but I will ask that all participating remain civil and constructive, non-aggressive, and avoid any pointed digs or accusations towards specific players. This is not the appropriate avenue for that.

Luitolf, I completely agree. The Titans were an unknown entity to me until I had a year or so in-game. It is impossible to expect a new player to know to submit a Titan report if something is wrong.

That being said, the Titan team cannot be everywhere, and we do not actively police the game. It would be impossible to do so. So, I am really not sure how to prevent such situations. This is why I generally encourage people to submit a Titan report when they think something isn't right. One of two things will happen. Either we look into it, and it is not a breakage of rules, and everything is fine. Or it is a breakage of rules, and now we know about it and can do something about it.

An important responsibility of seniority is transitioning from learning the game to helping make sure new players are able to learn and enjoy it.

[Vita`]

There's a lot to unpack in this whole topic. I'm probably going to forget something I would like to contribute after mulling over it all day.

First off, I do want to apologize for how you've been treated upon the discord. That is not the welcoming experience we want to ensure in any part of the BattleMaster community experience in-game, on the wiki, on the forum, or on discord. I think what often happens, and what we've been attempting to address since Perleone was a big bloc of players drowning out other southern realm player voices, is that each individual, wanting to contribute, chimes in with their voice one by one. And when its an imbalance of many shared perspectives versus one, it quickly feels like a hostile dogpile. As these concerns, various increases in moderation have been adopted. Since your last night in Discord, we've implemented channel slowmode (limiting rate of posts per person per allotted time) and locking the channel from posts as moderator commands. That said, it does *not* excuse some of your own behaviour on the discord either. Overall, I felt very disappointed by that *entire* conversation. Overall, there is a strong lack of people *listening* to one another and I thank Gildre for raising this and Anaris for reminding us that we are all *real people* on the other side of the screen.

I will put this as simply as possible - you are saying the discord and the zeitgeist it presents has zero effects on the game? That it has never influenced writing a character motivation? That the concepts presented exist entirely separate in each individual's mind and that no contamination occurs?

Nothing has zero effects on the game. There are many conscious and unconscious ideas affecting our characters and it is upon us to do our best to be mindful of OOC knowledge intermingling with IC. There's also different types of OOC influence between the negative misusing OOC information for IC gain and the positive developing your character for OOC enjoyment over strict interpretation of what ones character would do. Practically speaking, as Tom noted, there's only so much to be done to stop OOC discussions, they will occur somewhere; at least with discord, it can be moderated under our influence. As it has increasingly been when noted as necessary. When it is evident someone *has* circumvented the in-gane message system with OOC messages, yes the Titans will issue a judgment.

I will say when the devs can put a "give feedback" button on the account pages to get a broad perspective, why wouldn't they?

Player-wide surveys are something that have been worked with off and on for quite awhile. It was an idea in 2012. Tim finally worked on them I think in 2014 or so, but didn't get fully finished. I implemented new player surveys some months ago, though there's a bug I need to fix with some of them. After the huge Beluaterra ruler OOCfest in May, I started turning my attention to one-off surveys on related matters of the game's direction, government member performance, titan perception, player mortality et cetera. But summer tends to be a lowpoint in my BattleMaster-related time, so I haven't had the focus to sit down and complete them; I was fiddling with the mobile display for the surveys last I remember. As with most things in BattleMaster, they're a work in progress, along with what Anaris mentioned elsewhere about limited time and motivation being sapped.

[Vita`]

Unlike those that hide in the Admin/OOC chat in game.

There's no hiding by using that channel, and its a perfectly valid and welcomed channel to use for matters that pertain to the island and game as a whole.

The main issue I see, and I have expressed this both on discord and in game both to other players as well as the mods and admins, is that there very clearly is 2 sides forming, and both sides view the other as the enemy. This is what is wrong with the game. Neither side is the enemy. They are just two different ways to play and have fun. What we need is to find a compromise between the 2 sides so that both sides can have fun without ruining the fun of the other side.

And this is why we need to start listening to each other, to turn that around.

[GoldPanda]

...

Hey, I don't think it's cool to share cherry-picked in-realm IC messages on the public forum, even if some of them are fairly old.

What did I even do to you? :(

This is why so many sensitive discussions these days happen among a few trusted nobles, while most new players get cut out of the fun. Too many players think "to everyone in the realm" = public.

[Anaris]

Hey, I don't think it's cool to share cherry-picked in-realm IC messages on the public forum, even if some of them are fairly old.

What did I even do to you? :(

This is why so many sensitive discussions these days happen among a few trusted nobles, while most new players get cut out of the fun. Too many players think "to everyone in the realm" = public.

This is 100% completely out of line, on several levels.

First of all, they were directly and specifically accused of OOC misconduct, and every post they shared was clearly chosen to refute those accusations.

Second of all, how can you possibly read what they wrote and ask "what you did"? You accused the Titans of IC bias, you implied that recruiting and keeping new players was somehow against the rules, and you belittled and condescended to Sigrid. The posts chosen were not an attack on you; they were very clearly chosen to demonstrate why Sigrid felt disaffected in Eponllyn. The fact that they made you look bad can be lain at your own feet.

And finally, I want to end that horribly toxic idea right now and forever. Every player who advocates for keeping discussions locked behind closed doors is personally responsible for driving away new players.

I don't care how you feel, how much it matters to you: Winning wars and gaining personal glory in-game is never more important than giving new players a vibrant, fun, and interesting realm to play in, where they can feel included and understand not only what's going on, but why.

I strongly urge you to take some time to examine why you think your right to "win" a game that cannot be won is more important than the right of the people around you to enjoy playing it.

[CryptCypher]

Hey, I don't think it's cool to share cherry-picked in-realm IC messages on the public forum, even if some of them are fairly old.

What did I even do to you? :(

This is why so many sensitive discussions these days happen among a few trusted nobles, while most new players get cut out of the fun. Too many players think "to everyone in the realm" = public.

Wait, what? I don't recognize the username, my apologies. Which missive is this in reference to?

Also, pardon me if I'm incorrect and just don't realize it, but I've always been under the impression that non-RP 'everyone in the realm' missives are, in fact, absolutely public, and to be treated as such.

I do believe a recent addition to remedy any potential misunderstandings related to RP inclusion was the "private/public-ask/public-open" options, but I'm not sure if this is at all reflected upon copying an RP/missive to be quoted.

[CryptCypher]

A few things to note here:

I absolutely agree that new players should be treasured and inducted into the game with a welcoming touch, rather than punished and excluded. I'm not, however, a new player. To Eponllyn? Alright, I'll give you that.

The reason I fell in love with BM around a decade ago took place on my 2nd BM reincarnation. The then-duke of Phantaria, marshal of the Phantarian Pride, took me under their wing and mentored me. They educated me on in-game mannerisms, politics, social contract, mechanics, country intrigue, and even let me learn how to fight and lead by making me Vice-Marshal of the Phantarian Pride. Their mentorship taught me enough about BM to feel useful - but its their patience and kindness toward a new player that made me want to stay. Their influence led directly to Alura Aurea becoming an active member of the community, and eventually ruler of Terran, upon which I linked up with Rynn JeVondair. JV later took me under their wing, opening my eyes to so many unique aspects of the game I never knew existed. In time, another player would do the same for me - that of Renodin. Miss you, man.

This experience was vastly different to my earlier, original attempt at playing BM in the early/mid 2000's. I don't recall much of my experience back then, so I cannot comment reliably. Suffice to say, I just didn't feel meaningfully engaged, valued, and unique as a character.

Twice over the last decade, following my departure from Terran and BM, JeVondair personally reached out to me via email and convinced me to return to BM full-time and actually stay for a while: including my 3rd account where I played Magnus Aurea who together with JV founded the Greater Xavax Imperium.

Then, as Yxevarii Auru'in in Obia'Syela (BT) via my newest and current account, JV apologized for some of the things that had taken place during our time in Xavax, then proceeded to engage meaningfully with what was entirely designed as a throwaway Hero. Yxevarii was made to fizzle out and die gloriously after what I assumed would be yet another temporary bout of disappointment. This was not the case. OS had, and continues to have, a vibrant community of wonderful players - both RPers and otherwise - who make effort to include one another, or at the very least not actively sabotage the enjoyment of our characters by actually giving a damn about each other as if we were playing among friends. This includes those who they technically have perfectly-valid IC reasons not to welcome into our theocracy. Still, they see one another as players here to have fun as friends playing a fantasy game, and do their damn best to respect everyone no matter their playstyle, activity levels, or class preference. Yxevarii's rivalry with Astros Renodin was conducted in a healthy manner, whereby we behaved as two friends having fun by playing diametrically-opposite characters who constantly try to murder and foil one another's plots at every turn. Renodin was a gentleman, despite being my greatest enemy IC, and regularly made effort to ensure that what we were doing was still fun for both of us. My experience in OS was, and continues to be, vastly more enjoyable than that of Xavax, or even Terran. Though I inevitably quit after playing from 2017 to 2018, leaving Princess Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in of the Xavax Goldwings, and Yxevarii's rulership of OS behind, it was for perfectly healthy reasons this time. I was busy, got burned out, and took a step back to focus on RL.

Before I explain a few more issues I believe to be relevant here, thank you whoever changed the account deletion protocol. Your efforts allowed the Auru'in account to still exist when Renodin convinced me (via discord!) to give BM one more try, a few months ago. It is so disheartening to have remembered BM, hoped to give it another chance, and find out that my past efforts and history was wiped from existence the other times I paused out. I've spoken to other returning veterans who delayed their return by months or even years due to the loss of an old account. This has made a major difference, allowing me to step back into Sigrid, Yxevarii, and Masalu's shoes. I'm profoundly grateful for your consideration of old, paused-out players, who might one day return to the fray.

The second time I quit BM, circa 2012-2013? Was around the time of Aurvandil's multi-account situation. Knowing that some among our adversary skewed the game through unfairly-advantaged tactics made me feel disenfranchised - like players were fighting an uphill battle we could not hope to compete with. The prevailing feeling was that where there's one, there's likely more - and putting in all the effort of creating content was doomed to be steamrolled at the hands of someone who could just make a bunch of fake accounts and tip the scales. All this for the sake of winning a game never meant to be won. (outside of a single, specific island made for precisely that purpose.)

I've always felt that the point of BM is to play together as a community of content creators. That, win or lose, the purpose of it all was to weave a collaborative story of glory and sacrifice; of faith and hopeless. It was at a point in my life where I was heavily into the Dwarf Fortress community, where as we say, "Losing is fun." The unfair, meta-gamed advantages exposed by Aurvandil made it so that losing didn't feel fun anymore, and winning was a forgone dream one couldn't not aspire to without bending the rules... And that isn't what BM was supposed to feel like. Not to me, at least. It has always been about the journey, not the destination, and both felt equally pointless. So, I quit - but a few years later, circa 2015/2016, I came back.

The third time I quit was especially relevant to this thread. I made the mistake of letting scars of Aurvandil cloud my judgement - alongside an even worse problem: as a result of trying to outmatch potential/perceived meta-gaming alongside my own personal baggage, I dumped far too many hours of my life into meticulously hand-crafting a realm, culture, and faith for the sake of "beating adversity to the punch." I should have taken a step back, but instead doubled-down - sacrificing countless sleepless nights to the glow of a computer screen. In fact, I got far too attached to my character, took what I'd created to heart, and felt pressured into behaving a certain way when things didn't go according to plan. That's where I messed up the most - I stopped playing for the journey and made it all about the destination. I am at fault for not moderating the "bleed" - allowing myself to get emotionally affected by things that should have begun and ended IC; alongside my obsession with creating a legacy that would stand the test of time in the face of those who might bear some unfair advantage I might not yet foresee. I tried to be everywhere, do everything, and stretched my self painfully-thin in ways no one can excuse or justify. I did not handle IC attacks as well as I would have liked, but I completely lost my cool in response to ooc attacks against my personal character as a human player. I'm not proud to admit that I eventually resorted to same-similar toxic behavior when I responded via that now-infamous Xavax forum thread - the one that resulted in Kellan Dodger's player being banned, and myself quitting shortly thereafter. I was not in a healthy place in RL and allowed that to bleed into my IC life, which went full-cycle and affected my RL emotional state in one hell of a negative feedback loop. The more I tried to squeeze out the happy juice by playing BM, the worse it got. In a way, it became a sort of addiction: if not a self-fulfilling doom-scroll prophecy I was destined to lose. In the end, I'd completely forgotten that losing was supposed to be part of the fun.

This third time was a prime example of "playing to win". Perhaps not in the classical sense, because I failed to realize how I was pitting my personal feelings against a fantasy world that should have been a source of joy, and not misery. I remember dreading every log-in during the events leading to and from Xavax Civil War. By then, the game had stopped being fun. It had stopped being a game, in fact. The personal attacks had become a source of emotional turmoil - but I refused to do what I perceived as being pressured to give up and step away from everything I had struggled to create. It wasn't merely in-game events that made me feel this way, it was a specific kind of message from a specific character, and later, that specific player's ooc insults - alongside a separate but related situation where I felt like a trusted friend had thrown me to the dogs while asking me to stay quiet about it. While one can justify not wanting to give up in the face of adversity, I should have taken a step back, assessed the situation, and if need be, reported it to the admins for mediation. Instead I took things to heart and made a total ass of myself by failing to control my emotions.

Ironically, considering its a chain of events from a fantasy world, the fallout of the Xavax civil war directly led to me going to therapy and figuring out some of my RL character flaws, anxieties, and stressors. For that, I'm thankful to Dodger, JeVondair, and the Xavax - rivals and friends alike. I was not in a good place mentally due to RL events, and that bled horribly into how I played the game. In many ways, I was living vicariously through my character, and that isnever a healthy behavior.

Since then, I've spoken to and made peace with the players of JeVondair, and especially Kellan Dodger. We've all analyzed, accepted, admitted, and apologized for being emotionally-charged jackoffs taking a game way too seriously because of RL drama clouding our judgment.

Sometimes, due to circumstances IC and-or OOC, we can lose sight of the meaning behind BM. When that happens, we must take a good look at ourselves and think:

What exactly is my goal here? Am I doing this for the right reasons? How would I feel if someone else did this to me? Am I playing for the journey, or have I become obsessed with the destination? Am I playing as a healthy, constructive member of a community of friends?

Most of all, we have to wonder,

Am I still having fun? At what cost to myself and others? What can I do to remedy this situation?

Sometimes, as I had to learn the hard way, the best thing we can do is take a step back and reassess what it is we're really doing here. Sometimes, unfortunately, we're so focused on not giving up our place in the sun, and others have to do it on our behalf. Sometimes it other players. Sometimes its the Titans. Sometimes, its people in RL. Either way, an intervention was usually long-overdue and we just didn't realize it yet.

Whether by an Aurvandil multi-bolting, an Atamaran refugee turned Xerarch's personal feuds blown wildly out of proportion, or just feeling burned out, I've been in your shoes, Bartica/Gold/etc.

Sometimes for the right reasons, but not always. Not usually. Please understand that this was for the good of the community - and for you as a character, player, and human being.

Please, take this time to ask yourself the questions listed above. Let this situation be a driving force for positive change - help give you a healthier perspective on BM; so you can come back a fairer, healthier, and productive member of our community of friends.

Enjoy the journey, and remember: losing can be fun too, my friend.

[Anaris]

Wait, what? I don't recognize the username, my apologies. Which missive is this in reference to?

GoldPanda is the player of the Kinsey family.

[BarticaBoat]

(User was warned for this post)

...

Please do not amateur psychoanalyze me it is incredibly condescending and goes beyond "sharing your experience". I have always played my characters as they are and focused on the resolution of their own stories, whether or not I'm writing 7k character RPs. That I don't play nicely with everyone or refuse to follow whatever the gang has cooked up today is because of my devotion to the story of my characters. I am committed to the organic storytelling that makes BM unique, not contrived stories cooked up in a fever of cigarettes and clacking away on a keyboard.

...

While I acknowledge I was often spicy on discord, I noted many players attacked me outside of game topics and I responded in kind. A memorable debate on Politics and Religion really opened my eyes to the quality of people on the discord and the echo bubble that occurs (the one where they called my family members murderous psychopaths, until "one of their own" offered his own views on gun use). That I would butt heads in the EC chat was nearly a given at that point. Not that I think my last conversation was bad at all but even when confronted with real time examples of their behaviour I was gaslighted and ignored.

The discord has existed as a wild west under the guise of semi-official. You are correct about moderating OOC influence only going so far but the prominence of discord makes the influence that much more. Here's a suggestion: if it is a ooc community of friends, who care who plays which families? Conceal that information from search. I remember the vibes changing the moment they discovered the family I play. Let players reveal it if they wish.

[Victor C]

Thank you for sharing your experience Crypt.

I'm certain that there are plenty of people who can relate to you.
When I played more actively, I met plenty of people who were going through the same stuff, and I almost went through it myself.

Fortunately, I took a long break and nothing serious happened with me.

It is quite interesting to me, how the forum works. We are based in a game where debates are common, and the power that words hold is endless. We learn to block out the opposing side and only attack, rather than listen. We play the game where those with the strongest opinions typically win. However, when we come here, it should not be a game of "Attack" and "Defend". I imagine it to be even more so on the discord, where everything is happening very quickly and there is little time to think between messages. Please be respectful to each other, especially now that there was a major event in EC that has raised tensions to a new recent high.