BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: Indirik on July 02, 2012, 10:29:37 PM
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The topic of SMA religions has come up several times in the past couple years. Mostly in relation to whether or not one religion or another fits SMA. Rather than focus on that, I would like to know what people think is required for a religion to be considered SMA. Keep in mind the rule that eastern philosophical religions are not SMA, nor religions that are uniquely identified with non-European geographical regions.
In prior debates, I think I identified some characteristics that I considered essential.
1) There must be some divine/supernatural element that the religion worships. It doesn't specifically need to be called a god. You don't have to love it, or think it's the best thing since sliced bread and indoor plumbing. But you should worship it.
2) A desire to spread it's influence. This could be for love of your god, a desire to "save" your converts, or purely for personal power. It could be a forceful expansion, or a pacifist peaceful one.
There was a third thing, but I can't remember it right now, and don't have time to look.
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Curious what number three is, since I know the CoH fits one and two.
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I'm a big fan of crusader-type religions, but Judaism never sought to expand in any way, and that is certainly a medieval European religion.
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Well, even if I can't remember what #3 was, I would still like to know what other people think makes an SMA religion. What should it have? What should it not have?
Can you have a "godless" religion?
Can you have an "anti-religion" dedicated to wiping out another specific religion?
Can you have a religion that worships a person, and not a god?
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Well, even if I can't remember what #3 was, I would still like to know what other people think makes an SMA religion. What should it have? What should it not have?
Can you have a "godless" religion?
Can you have an "anti-religion" dedicated to wiping out another specific religion?
Can you have a religion that worships a person, and not a god?
No
As long as there's some theology to go with the hatred, I see no reason why not.
Yes. Christianity already sort of does this, so it fits well.
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Christianity does not worship a person.
I'm talking about worshiping an actual human being, not the son of "cult of personality" kind of thing, maybe?
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Christianity does not worship a person.
I'm talking about worshiping an actual human being, not the son of "cult of personality" kind of thing, maybe?
Nobody knowingly worships a person, but I see no reason why they can't worship a human personification of god aka jebus
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Didn't the Persians do that kinda thing?
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I suppose that the act of worshiping them kind of elevates them away from merely human, huh? I suppose having your ruler killed in battle could kind of cause a theological crisis. :)
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Christians do not believe they worship a "person" per se; or, rather, not merely a person. They worship a Trinity, who they regard as 3 persons/personalities, of one being; one of those 3 persons happens to be the Incarnation.
IMO, deified monarchs are not SMA. Christianity did not deify any monarchs during the Medieval period. Deification of leaders did occur in the Roman period, and arguably some absolutist monarchs may have been making a run for it, but deification of rulers just wasn't typical of any part of Medieval Europe. Really, I'm struggling to think of any instance after, say, 500 AD where a person was deified. The closest I can think of is declaring someone a Saint.
IMO, an anti-religion isn't okay. You can be against a religion. But founding a BM religion as an anti-religion is obviously metagaming. It's not an SMA issue, it's a "You're abusing the feature" issue.
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To be honest, for it to really be SMA, their should only be a single major religion in existence, and it should be a renamed version of Christianity. A bit of Judaism and Islam can exist as minor religions (with the Islam copy being a major religion on another island), and scattered tiny pagan religions. Anything else is a deviation from an actual medieval atmosphere. . . .
. . . but since we don't have that, nor do we really want that, I don't think it's specific details of religions that are important, nor the philosophy behind them, but if they are serious attempts at religion or spirituality (for a rather lose definition of religion), not completely out of place or immersion-breaking (again, lose definition here), and organic and alive.
I doubt anyone would deny they SA adds quite a bit to Dwilight (you may hate it, but you cannot deny it gives a great feel) and seems right. But it is very arguably NOT strictly SMA. It is not exactly an Eastern Philosophy religion, but it certainly has a lot in common with them . . . it believes in divine powers (the Bloodstars), but I would say it doesn't really worship them, at least not in a western sense. It's a mix of western philosophy, eastern philosophy, and a little belief in divinity, but even though I doubt you'd ever be able to find anything like it in medieval Europe, it's Dwilight's most successful religion, and adds greatly to the atmosphere.
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IMO, an anti-religion isn't okay. You can be against a religion. But founding a BM religion as an anti-religion is obviously metagaming. It's not an SMA issue, it's a "You're abusing the feature" issue.
You should interpret "anti-religion" more as "replacement religion." One dedicated to destroying the other, yet ready to assume the power and functionality the former had. It may have a similar god/pantheon, beliefs, traditions, etc... This is perfectly SMA and obviously not metagaming.
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I think he's more talking about the Aurvandil anti-religion thing they have going on there. It isn't formed as a religion, I don't think, but they are basically against any kind of religion.
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I thought he was talking more about the Manifest Path, which declared that there are, indeed, various supernatural entities, one or more of which may have created the world...and they're all out to get us, so we should try to get them first.
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To me, what makes an SMA religion...
Well, first of all it has to have something extraordinary it is worshipping, something so out of the normal it can be worshipped by a group of people. That could be gods, goddesses, demigods, spirits, supernatural happenings, or even stars the color of blood! ;D
Second, it has to have something that sets it apart. Beliefs/doctrine are usually that. Just 'We worship the bloodstars because they look cool' doesn't cut it. 'We worship the bloodstars because of blah blah blah blah blah'? Now that's more like it! ;D
Third, it has to be Battlemaster themed. Note how I didn't say Middle Ages themed. I know I hold a little bit different view than what is currently accepted, but if it's accepted as something that would fit into the Battlemaster atmosphere, but not necessarily similar to Christianity or the pagan religions in Europe, I don't mind so much so longer as it is properly described and clear cut. Star worship such as the Sanguis Astroist religion could be considered tribal in nature, but add a bunch of description and a clear cut doctrine(which is needed in my view anyways) and BAM! You have a SMA religion! ;D
To me, though, simply an 'anti-religion' religion wouldn't work. 'We live to counter (your least favorite religion name here) religion?' Just no. Now, if it is 'We had a god/goddess that constantly wars with THEIR god/goddess and whoever worships that god/goddess is evil'? Totally acceptable. And cool. Maybe we can get some bloodmoons out there against the bloodstars! ;D
Anyways, that's my three things on what a religion needs to be SMA. It doesn't need to want to spread it's religion, it could just stay in a single city and make that the holy city of all holy cities. Nor does it need to be European like. Just well described enough so that those of us who grew up in the Western world can understand.
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I didn't really have anything specific in mind in regards to an "anti-religion". I suppose perhaps a religion that specifically targets another, and is bent on destrying them.
Bad example, I guess.
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I went back looking through the old threads, but I couldn't find the one talking about tMP. I know we talked about this back then. Or maybe it was one of the threads about giving religion some punch...
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You should interpret "anti-religion" more as "replacement religion." One dedicated to destroying the other, yet ready to assume the power and functionality the former had. It may have a similar god/pantheon, beliefs, traditions, etc... This is perfectly SMA and obviously not metagaming.
Again, if somebody founds an IG religion and their reason is to opposed some other religion, and that is clearly their intent, I'd say it's abuse.
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I went back looking through the old threads, but I couldn't find the one talking about tMP. I know we talked about this back then. Or maybe it was one of the threads about giving religion some punch...
May have been in the General Discussion forum. I remember which one you are talking about.
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I think he's more talking about the Aurvandil anti-religion thing they have going on there. It isn't formed as a religion, I don't think, but they are basically against any kind of religion.
This is evidently against the rules... Against SMA... And they should all be banned for it... Why hasn't that happened?
Again, if somebody founds an IG religion and their reason is to opposed some other religion, and that is clearly their intent, I'd say it's abuse.
Again, if somebody founds an IG religion - a reformation of their old church - and is opposed to the old church, and that is clearly their intent to replace and destroy it, I'd say that's perfectly fine, realistic, and SMA. Circumstance should be taken into account for this kind of thing.
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Again, if somebody founds an IG religion - a reformation of their old church - and is opposed to the old church, and that is clearly their intent to replace and destroy it, I'd say that's perfectly fine, realistic, and SMA. Circumstance should be taken into account for this kind of thing.
No.
If you found a schismatic sects with different beliefs, that's fine. You can convert peasants to a different theology; that's a religion.
If you found a schismatic sect solely aimed at destroying the other IG religion, that's not fine. You don't convert people to the religion of anti-Astroism, or whatever.
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No.
If you found a schismatic sects with different beliefs, that's fine. You can convert peasants to a different theology; that's a religion.
If you found a schismatic sect solely aimed at destroying the other IG religion, that's not fine. You don't convert people to the religion of anti-Astroism, or whatever.
I think you misconstrued it; similarly to the antipapacies in medieval europe, you can form another religion with identical (not nonexistant) theologies, based on a political schism with the main faith.
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I too don't think an "anti religion" would work; it should be a religion in its own right, providing the basic things a religion might provide in BM: temples, shrines, priests, and a framework or context in which these three things make sense, descriptions of appearances and functions thereof.
Worshiping a human *as* a god could well be done.
I would focus on the "serious" aspect of it. Ask oneself: could this be a real religion? Could people really do this, if the world was like it is in BM?
Given that we have things like: undead, monsters and daimons, these too should be accounted for somehow. There should be an explanation for their existence, or at least where they stand cosmologically. The Adgharhin Way in FEI did this fairly well, if I do say so myself.
With regards to gods or goddesses, I don't think its necessary that they exist in name. They could be unspecified nameless gods, or spirits of ancestors, or Bloodstars. But in any case there should be someone or something that one could offer prayers, worship or devotions to, something that could roughly (though maybe not specifically) called divine. Even if such prayers, worship or devotion is borrowed from other religions or from pagan/folklore/superstition.
These are just my thoughts.
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To me it's quite simple:
1) Have at least one object of worship.
2) Have at least one meaningful superstition.
3) Be serious.
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No rules have ever been made on this, simply because the question has never come up. Given that there have probably been real cults that broke either or all of these, I would say two things:
One, it appears that so far it's never been a problem, so why worry?
Two, not being obviously silly is the only real requirement I can think of.
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No rules have ever been made on this, simply because the question has never come up. Given that there have probably been real cults that broke either or all of these, I would say two things:
One, it appears that so far it's never been a problem, so why worry?
Two, not being obviously silly is the only real requirement I can think of.
I think the discussion is more "what makes a good religion" than "What makes a religion tolerable". I think it's a discussion worth having.
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No rules have ever been made on this, simply because the question has never come up. Given that there have probably been real cults that broke either or all of these, I would say two things:
One, it appears that so far it's never been a problem, so why worry?
Two, not being obviously silly is the only real requirement I can think of.
How about Philosophy, or idol based faiths not focusing on gods? Or religions using a karma style system?
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Well, even if I can't remember what #3 was, I would still like to know what other people think makes an SMA religion. What should it have? What should it not have?
Can you have a "godless" religion?
I do not see why not if you can make it logical and show that something similar existed, what about druidism? did they have a "GOD"?
Can you have an "anti-religion" dedicated to wiping out another specific religion?
Sure, say a religion splits in two and a sort of civil war ensues where some break away and wish the destruction of the "false" faith. or even where someone or more are kicked from the religion and start their own to get even by destroying the other.
Can you have a religion that worships a person, and not a god?
Wouldn't that be called a cult. lol but seriously, yes, I can. Dwilight has big egos all over the place. lol
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How about Philosophy, or idol based faiths not focusing on gods? Or religions using a karma style system?
I am not discussing hypotheticals on the forum. There is no profit in doing that, and past experience has shown that my comments are taken out of context and used in ways I never intended.
If someone wants to know my opinion on a specific actually existing (in-game) religion, I'll give it, but I won't discuss theoretical scenarios above pointing out basic no-gos.
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No rules have ever been made on this, simply because the question has never come up. Given that there have probably been real cults that broke either or all of these, I would say two things:
One, it appears that so far it's never been a problem, so why worry?
Two, not being obviously silly is the only real requirement I can think of.
Er, didn't you or someone nix Chenier's idea of creating an Aztec-style religion on Dwilight due to SMA concerns? That may be why there are so many questions...
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I am not discussing hypotheticals on the forum. There is no profit in doing that, and past experience has shown that my comments are taken out of context and used in ways I never intended.
If someone wants to know my opinion on a specific actually existing (in-game) religion, I'll give it, but I won't discuss theoretical scenarios above pointing out basic no-gos.
Considering this debacle why would anyone make a nonstandard religion on dwilight, with indirik calling Glaumuring's faith not suitable for SMA and the surrounding !@#$storm not having some steadfast tomspeak saying "You don't need to make a traditional psudo christian or parthanon religion to not get modded" rather disuades from not just rehashing christianity.
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And as you can see, I'm not the only one who felt that the Cult of Bloodmoon, as it is presented, just doesn't measure up. And since enforcing SMA is the task of the players, it is up to the players to speak up when they see something that doesn't fit. If the objections raised help mold CoB into something that does fit SMA, then we're all better off for it.
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And as you can see, I'm not the only one who felt that the Cult of Bloodmoon, as it is presented, just doesn't measure up. And since enforcing SMA is the task of the players, it is up to the players to speak up when they see something that doesn't fit. If the objections raised help mold CoB into something that does fit SMA, then we're all better off for it.
Well, besides what was said was going to be changed, what else do you think should no longer be? In case you name worshiping fruits, do you consider Astroism to be SMA?
Know that the worship of plans implies, as all Shamanic traditions, there are spirits that manifest themselves through the plants (specifically through their consumption). In case of the Ayahuasca, for example, there is a large myth on the two plants used in making it, one being the Father and the other the Mother. It's not just saying "this cucumber is my god, and that is all".
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Well, besides what was said was going to be changed, what else do you think should no longer be?
If the religion encompasses some higher power or supernatural being/force that they worship, and use the Bloodmoon fruit as a conduit to that power, IMO that would fit the bill for SMA. If the religion is like that Nomudou thing that used to be in the south somewhere, where the "religion" is really just a thin mask over big joke about drinking yourself into oblivion (or in CoB's case it just glorifies taking psychedelic drugs and uses the "religion" aspect as a thin cover to try and claim IC legitimacy (Edit: This is for comparison's sake, I am not claiming that's what CoB really is...)), then no, it's not SMA.
In case you name worshiping fruits, do you consider Astroism to be SMA?
Well that's a pretty silly question, isn't it?
Know that the worship of plans implies, as all Shamanic traditions, there are spirits that manifest themselves through the plants (specifically through their consumption). In case of the Ayahuasca, for example, there is a large myth on the two plants used in making it, one being the Father and the other the Mother. It's not just saying "this cucumber is my god, and that is all".
Looks to me like they're not worshiping the plant itself, are they? The plant may be sacred, and they use it to prepare their drug, which they use in religious rights. But they don't *worship* the plants. (Unless I read the Wikipedia page wrong...)
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Aye. I think the religion would be more interesting if some type of theology was developed that venerated the bloodmoon fruit as a conduit to communing with the Divine, be they gods or spirits of some type. It's not very religion-y without that component.
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It is about communig with the divine, we just havent had time as players to bounce some ideas back and forth, they used to be for communing with the bloodstars, but since the crusade threats the bloodstars might as well not exist for people just outside the faith, which eventually shoots yourselves in the foot for interesting plot ideas.
Plus I dont do drugs in real life ( yeah hard to believe) so this isnt just some vehicle for me to RP a stoner just like real life.
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If the religion encompasses some higher power or supernatural being/force that they worship, and use the Bloodmoon fruit as a conduit to that power, IMO that would fit the bill for SMA. If the religion is like that Nomudou thing that used to be in the south somewhere, where the "religion" is really just a thin mask over big joke about drinking yourself into oblivion (or in CoB's case it just glorifies taking psychedelic drugs and uses the "religion" aspect as a thin cover to try and claim IC legitimacy (Edit: This is for comparison's sake, I am not claiming that's what CoB really is...)), then no, it's not SMA.
Fair enough.
Looks to me like they're not worshiping the plant itself, are they? The plant may be sacred, and they use it to prepare their drug, which they use in religious rights. But they don't *worship* the plants. (Unless I read the Wikipedia page wrong...)
Let's put it like this: they believe there is a spiritual plane to which the Ayahuasca helps you connect (they give personality to it, and treat it as an entity). It also takes you in the sessions towards moments of suffering and confrontation of your problems (the father/vine-part does that) and others of bliss, auto-forgiveness and stuff (the mother/leave-part), in order to teach you and make you grow spiritually. They are considered deities but their influence is restricted to those sessions, so you won't see them praying for them in their daily lives. They have tons of other deities, but that is another matter. (Just for if you were wondering, I personally know a native-american shaman and my uncle is very into it.)
What they specifically worship can be misinterpreted. It's similar to the Catholic's host and the transubstantiation. They believe that during the mass the host is the body of Christ, which is worshiped, though if I told you Catholics worship hosts you'd likely take it as a joke. They don't worship the piece of bread, they do to Jesus who they believe to make himself present in it. Similarly with the Ayahuasca, they consider the leaves and vines and the brew divine because they carry/are/make present the aforementioned spirits/deities, which take you to a spiritual dimension and all that.
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It is about communig with the divine, we just havent had time as players to bounce some ideas back and forth, they used to be for communing with the bloodstars, but since the crusade threats the bloodstars might as well not exist for people just outside the faith, which eventually shoots yourselves in the foot for interesting plot ideas.
Plus I dont do drugs in real life ( yeah hard to believe) so this isnt just some vehicle for me to RP a stoner just like real life.
Are you the founder of the religion? I know that in-game Ven Dhalgren founded it but was it your idea or hers/his?
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I don't know about the religion itself, but Glaumring has been RPing about Bloodmoon fruit and its hallucinogenic properties for many years dating back to the original Thulsoma (pre-Saxon takeover).
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http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Cult_of_Bloodmoon
ok so, i think i got carried away, yet i like it. it is a religion with spirit worship at the popular level, and a hermetic religion at the secret ones (european medieval hermeticism).
to answer a couple of posts above the content and ideas here are all mine, but obviously Glaumring role-played the bloodmoon for ages and had a secret guild founded in thulsoma, so the starting point is his.
I am not sure if this or the cult of bloodmoon thread is appropriate for they overlap a lot, apologies if mistaken
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Yeah Ven! Awesome. I am the Walrus! You are the Eggman! Kookachoo!
Seriously one of the only people who gets it, gets it all!
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It needs much work, especially the visionary stage for it is the popular one and most widespread. I want to add rituals and worship of the Influences to get good fortune etc.
Those are the core ideas anyway. comments on how to improve it/ make it more sma are very welcome.
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Simply beautiful.
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Discussion of the CoB should be in the thread for it. This is a generic thread about SMA and religion.