BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: Bael on December 23, 2011, 08:43:00 PM
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Now that much more of Dwilight has been conquered, I feel it has lost a lot of potential. There are now only two potential new colony sites, and neither are that viable (for different reasons). No more the vast expanses of land to be conquered, nor the dreams of new realms in the wilds.
Add to this the fact that it is overrun with adventurers (fewer spawns), and could almost be any other map. Sure, you got your SMA (so what?) and the occasional Zuma invasion, but eh... :-\
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Now that much more of Dwilight has been conquered, I feel it has lost a lot of potential. There are now only two potential new colony sites, and neither are that viable (for different reasons). No more the vast expanses of land to be conquered, nor the dreams of new realms in the wilds.
Add to this the fact that it is overrun with adventurers (fewer spawns), and could almost be any other map. Sure, you got your SMA (so what?) and the occasional Zuma invasion, but eh... :-\
Maybe the island will finally start to see some players vs. players action. Not that I'd hold my breath for it since much of the north is just a huge monolithic alliance formed around their faith. Boring times ahead in those parts unless things somehow shake up(well, boring already in Morek at least).
Honestly, where ever I have been on Dwilight it has been a boring battle of attrition against rogues with no personality and no reasons. That's not what BM is or should be about. It should be about playing with and against other players. I've never understood what's so great about a vast expanse of empty lands. Sure, growing and founding a realm is fun, but that really can't go on forever. The islands grows up some time. Hopefully the players vs. players aspect will pick up.
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PvP has been ongoing politically for a long time, and the frontier-mentality has created large blocs (Lurias, Astroism, Moot). As the frontier vanishes, that unity will break apart. If the struggles in the Moot with Madina/Aurvandil are any implication, it could really start happening soon.
It would already be happening, but the Zuma crisis has kind of put everything on hold.
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Oh ye of little faith, its just getting good. There is plenty of surprises ahead.
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Now that much more of Dwilight has been conquered, I feel it has lost a lot of potential. There are now only two potential new colony sites, and neither are that viable (for different reasons). No more the vast expanses of land to be conquered, nor the dreams of new realms in the wilds.
I don't think that's true at all. I know of serious efforts to colonize all remaining territory on the continent. And the Zuma change things a great deal, so even if all those are successful I think you'll still see a very different continent.
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It's fun though. My character has battled the harsh frontier his entire adult life; almost 25 years now. He's suddenly found himself upon the precipice of a changing landscape. The frontier is closing. His realm has "filled out" much of its logically envisioned space. The monsters are still coming, but are fewer and they certainly are not the cause for alarm they once were.
It's like the closing of the American Frontier, last of the Old West. A transition period over the next calendar year or so will likely see the end of an era, but the birth of a new one.
Dwilight has been awesome so far. To me it's culture, atmosphere and experience are unrivaled in Battlemaster. And I'm excited for what the continent has in store in the future.
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Indeed.
Especially given that we have a continent spanning religion that, from the outside, shows no signs of collapsing, but is still growing.
I know that, for example, my next character, though still in Terran, will be an Astroist. I doubt I'm the only person who wants to play an Astroist character at least partially for the novelty.
Dwilight has tons of potential left in it for entirely new styles of play; just because the frontiersman style is drawing to a close doesn't mean Dwilight will get boring.
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I highly doubt Astroism will be rule in perpetuity. It will like all empires rise, dominate and then reach a point of stagnation or outright revolt or fall to the barbarian hordes.
People seem to think that the settling of the westlands is the endgame, its not. This is where things become interesting, where cultures begin to influence, where the dance of politics and intrigue is a tangled web of deception and skullduggery, this is where it begins.
Glaumring is also getting quite old, he is 50 and a hero, I will play him until he dies of either natural or battle causes.
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I highly doubt Astroism will be rule in perpetuity. It will like all empires rise, dominate and then reach a point of stagnation or outright revolt or fall to the barbarian hordes.
People seem to think that the settling of the westlands is the endgame, its not. This is where things become interesting, where cultures begin to influence, where the dance of politics and intrigue is a tangled web of deception and skullduggery, this is where it begins.
Glaumring is also getting quite old, he is 50 and a hero, I will play him until he dies of either natural or battle causes.
People don't think it is the end game. People who were attracted to Dwilight because it wasn't full of realms however will now look at the continent and think hard if it offers them anything the other islands don't. For many the vast empty spaces was the allure of Dwilight, I mean how many nobles joined the continent just because they thought it would be easier to set up a colony here then anywhere else. As the wild spaces are slowly drying up, we may well lose those characters. Of course Dwilight will go on, it will just be different, both in how it plays and it the type of character it attracts.
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People don't think it is the end game. People who were attracted to Dwilight because it wasn't full of realms however will now look at the continent and think hard if it offers them anything the other islands don't. For many the vast empty spaces was the allure of Dwilight, I mean how many nobles joined the continent just because they thought it would be easier to set up a colony here then anywhere else. As the wild spaces are slowly drying up, we may well lose those characters. Of course Dwilight will go on, it will just be different, both in how it plays and it the type of character it attracts.
More opportunities for Dukes to go A.W.O.L with entire cities when I look at the map. ;D
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Just wait until there is a decent size war between multiple realms on both sides. It'll be the new Atamara with such long travel times.
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Doubtful. SA dominates the north. PeL/LN/whatever doesn't seem like the type with the guts to take on SA. Which is interesting because apparently Bedwyr is crazy enough to try taking on "abominations" that are potentially several times stronger than all of SA combined (Feel free to argue this, but...eh...just you know...Ah, forget it. Feel free to argue however you want.)
Well, they do say that the pen is mightier than the sword, so maybe what PeL/stuff fear isn't necessarily a bunch of daimons messing up their happy pile of happiness, but rather a bunch of SA dudes saying their happy pile of happiness is actually a sad pile of sadness.
Oh, and there are the Madina/Aurvandil guys who are more or less fated to be enemies for a long time, and that realm we all love to forget called GDoF (Kudos if you actually know what that stands for)
Then there's the midwest, which is...no clue. Asylon, Terran, and D'hara all seem to have some sort of SA presence, to some extent. They also probably don't want to tangle with the daimons anytime soon because unlike PeL/stuff they would be first on the chopping block if they did fight them, and most of the time, people don't like being shields for others who can sit comfortably far away.
And finally, there's no "CE power" that everyone else can hate. SA really isn't specific enough to target.
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Doubtful. SA dominates the north. PeL/LN/whatever doesn't seem like the type with the guts to take on SA. Which is interesting because apparently Bedwyr is crazy enough to try taking on "abominations" that are potentially several times stronger than all of SA combined (Feel free to argue this, but...eh...just you know...Ah, forget it. Feel free to argue however you want.)
It's quite crazy. It's also a keystone in his religion. And possibly may be the only way to save the world. Or might destroy it, depending. So, either crazy or genius, we'll have to see.
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Now that much more of Dwilight has been conquered, I feel it has lost a lot of potential. There are now only two potential new colony sites, and neither are that viable (for different reasons). No more the vast expanses of land to be conquered, nor the dreams of new realms in the wilds.
Add to this the fact that it is overrun with adventurers (fewer spawns), and could almost be any other map. Sure, you got your SMA (so what?) and the occasional Zuma invasion, but eh... :-\
Late reply, but oh well..
I find this a very interesting post. My interpretation of it is this: "Dwilight was great, but only so long as no one played on it."
What good is all that potential if it is never used? The "vast expanses of land to be conquered" exist for the entire purpose of *being* conquered. But if someone actually goes out and conquers them, then the island is somehow diminished or ruined? I don't think the island has lost any potential at all. Rather, that potential has shifted from "potential for exploration and founding of new realms" to "potential for direct conflict and warfare". Yes, the island's flavor will change. But that doesn't ruin it.
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Oh ho ho~ Indirik has actually said something good that I like for once.
And possibly what he said is more significant than we think at first.
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Oh ho ho~ Indirik has actually said something good that I like for once.
So there are lots of good things that I say, but you just don't like them? ;)
And possibly what he said is more significant than we think at first.
Hmm... I wasn't trying to be deep or mysterious. Just making an off-hand observation.
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Well, it's on the list of reasons why Dwilight was a mistake - it brought in too many people who are used to expansionist games. BattleMaster isn't one.
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I'm not sure I would be be playing right now if not for dwilight. Besides, the main places I see expansionism are in areas besides dwilight. On Atamara we have CE using puppet realms. On the Colonies we have Lukon (is that it's name? I know it's the one that dominates the island). The only reason there is expansion in dwilight is because the new estates system allows realms to hold on to those rogue regions that they could not before.
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Well, it's on the list of reasons why Dwilight was a mistake - it brought in too many people who are used to expansionist games. BattleMaster isn't one.
I think that is false on every front.
Battlemaster is definitely a game of conquest. Not absolute and total conquest, but definitely conquest. Maybe not for everyone, but thats an integral part of the game; indeed, its founding purpose was to run battles and provide a functional setting for SpellMaster, wasn't it?
And did you seriously just say "brought in too many people"? I thought we wanted more people?
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And did you seriously just say "brought in too many people"? I thought we wanted more people?
You're deliberately misquoting Tom.
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And did you seriously just say "brought in too many people"? I thought we wanted more people?
You're deliberately misquoting Tom.
He admits it, too!
As a dedicated ... misquoter myself...
;) ;D
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I think that is false on every front.
Battlemaster is definitely a game of conquest. Not absolute and total conquest, but definitely conquest. Maybe not for everyone, but thats an integral part of the game; indeed, its founding purpose was to run battles and provide a functional setting for SpellMaster, wasn't it?
And did you seriously just say "brought in too many people"? I thought we wanted more people?
I think perhaps he meant people more focused on 'winning' Battlemaster, but I'm not sure. Either way I love Dwilight. I'm not nearly as active there as I was before Rowan died (back when I played one of the most powerful characters on the island), but I will never leave it. If either it or BT are ever sunk I will be very disappointed. For whatever reason, I find the 'traditional' islands to be far more stale and boring.
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BM is more than a game of conquest, its a game of diplomacy first.
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BM is more than a game of conquest, its a game of diplomacy first.
Absolutely it is. But it's still a game of conquest; it's just not ONLY a game of conquest.
You're deliberately misquoting Tom.
No I'm not. I don't think there is a type of player we can have too many of, except a multi-cheater, and I have a hard time understanding the statement as anything other than saying there are people who joined the game who we would rather not have joined the game at all. I'm now curious who. And I didn't misquote him. Yes, I know there was a dependent clause after that; but it's not relevant. I don't see how attracting people who want to be expansionist and conquer or settle new lands is a bad thing.
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BM is more than a game of conquest, its a game of diplomacy first.
Ewwww. If I wanted diplomacy I would have more dinners with my extended family.
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Could it be...*gasp* that the point was for Dwilight NOT to be in the least bit settled much? You know...large map, one character per family (minus the adventurer thing. btw no one has fixed that 3 characters on one continent thing that I found last year for some odd reason)...the hint I'm scrying in my crystal ball and star chart combo is basically saying "Dude, this continent is gonna be really rogue...and that's in vogue." /me ducks a flying squirrel assault.
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Could it be...*gasp* that the point was for Dwilight NOT to be in the least bit settled much? You know...large map, one character per family (minus the adventurer thing. btw no one has fixed that 3 characters on one continent thing that I found last year for some odd reason)...the hint I'm scrying in my crystal ball and star chart combo is basically saying "Dude, this continent is gonna be really rogue...and that's in vogue." /me ducks a flying squirrel assault.
Well, the reason why this "unsettled" atmosphere is going away has less to do with player attitudes and more to do with game mechanics. So your argument is void in this discussion.
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Well, the reason why this "unsettled" atmosphere is going away has less to do with player attitudes and more to do with game mechanics. So your argument is void in this discussion.
I could always ask Tom to tweak the rogue spawn rates back to what they were. Seems we have gone from struggling to defend established realms to being able to relatively easily establish new realms where ever.
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That would kill several realms lol.
Instead of providing the background for SM, BM became a totally new game in my opinion. SM is dead :(
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That would kill several realms lol.
Instead of providing the background for SM, BM became a totally new game in my opinion. SM is dead :(
I'm part of the group that wouldn't mind seeing some realms die on Dwilight.
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Could it be...*gasp* that the point was for Dwilight NOT to be in the least bit settled much? You know...large map, one character per family (minus the adventurer thing. btw no one has fixed that 3 characters on one continent thing that I found last year for some odd reason)...the hint I'm scrying in my crystal ball and star chart combo is basically saying "Dude, this continent is gonna be really rogue...and that's in vogue." /me ducks a flying squirrel assault.
I had assumed that was the point from the beginning.
I just think it's kind of lame to have the agent of maintaining that disorder on an SMA continent to be arbitrary and ultimately quite uninteresting daimons who have no discernible plot despite, literally, years of living alongside them.
Dwilight becoming settled would be fine with me. Dwilight being returned to a state of comparative disorder and many realms being destroyed, even Terran, would be fine by me. Having the Zuma around in an active way or a passive way is fine by me.
I just find the Zuma as they are spectacularly boring. They operate on a plotline entirely separate from the rest of Dwilight, and don't even substantively interact with those plotlines. They seem profoundly Gygaxian in their operation (spontaneous massive hordes arrive with little warning or explanation, responding massively to events which seem minor to the rest of the continent and in all of previous BM precedent). They add nothing to the plot and create stagnation in interesting plots.
Honestly, I'm just bored with the Zuma by now. So they freak out and burn a region or two. Whatever. There's nothing we can do about it. So they want some items occasionally. Whatever. Not very interesting. Sure, destroy Terran if you feel like it; we can't really stop you if you really want to. Dealing with the Zuma is not rewarding as a player and not very interesting.
Especially when you message Haktoo and get the reply summoning you to Nightscree to talk, and, when you arrive, Haktoo still says practically nothing. It's just a frustrating waste of time.
And, in the meantime, it means that conflicts brewing between realms are put on hold. Terran hasn't had such conflict-free foreign policy in months. We're reaching out and making new friends all over the place, and internal conflict is a minimum as we're all in "Hunker down and survive" mode. And every time Hireshmont tries to go and stir something up, the Zuma have another tantrum, and he has to put everything on hold and play peacemaker again.
Whatever the objective of the Zuma is, right now they're accomplishing the result of pushing humanity around them to cooperate, colonize, avoid conflict, and keep politics to a minimum. If the goal of the Zuma is to create pacifist-master, they're close to achieving it in the lands around them.
I'm part of the group that wouldn't mind seeing some realms die on Dwilight.
I agree. I wouldn't mind seeing some realms die; and I honestly don't care which realms. I just would like them to die in some interesting, worthwhile conflict; like how Caerwyn died, maybe. Sudden death by arbitrary Zuma whim doesn't sound very interesting, nor the slow agony of monster spawns. Let human realms solidify, and we will tear each other apart.
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I wouldn't be opposed to the monster spawn rates being turned back up. I wasn't pleased that they were ever turned down in the first place. Though, I don't know for sure if they were turned down or if Tom simply manually removed large numbers of existing groups in order to sort of reset things on a couple of occasions. Well, I know Tom did that, I'm just saying I don't know if the actual spawn rates were adjusted at the same time. Dwilight first engaged me because of the challenge of colonization; it was genuinely difficult to colonize in the face of the kind of monsters hordes we had to deal with. I'd actually be happier if the monsters were never adjusted and everyone still had to struggle mightily just to keep their colony efforts alive. There might conceivably still be a lot of wilderness around.
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I agree with Vellos, the Zuma are not fun, they are interesting and I do like having them around etc but they are kind of faceless and without substance, just a huge horde that could wipe out every realm around them in 5 minutes, we already have to deal with massive monsters hordes in the west that the east havent seen in well... probably years. Then on top of that we have the Zuma bullying us around. Basically just join a realm in the east and you can beat any realm in the west in a few minutes because the western continent has no time for anything beyond constantly losing regions to the monsters or marching back to the capital to recruit.
I would like more room to breath and get down to realm on realm conflict or see the monster spawn tweaked or at least make the Zuma a bit more less ultra-super.
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I think the Zuma are annoying because there is no clear purpose for them being there unlike on Beluaterra where the point of those groups in general is complete destruction.
I though BM is supposed to be player against player unless you are on Beluaterra. I haven't heard a concrete reason yet, why there is Dwilight has an exception also on a small part of the continent.
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I wouldn't be opposed to the monster spawn rates being turned back up. I wasn't pleased that they were ever turned down in the first place. Though, I don't know for sure if they were turned down or if Tom simply manually removed large numbers of existing groups in order to sort of reset things on a couple of occasions. Well, I know Tom did that, I'm just saying I don't know if the actual spawn rates were adjusted at the same time. Dwilight first engaged me because of the challenge of colonization; it was genuinely difficult to colonize in the face of the kind of monsters hordes we had to deal with. I'd actually be happier if the monsters were never adjusted and everyone still had to struggle mightily just to keep their colony efforts alive. There might conceivably still be a lot of wilderness around.
I also wouldn't be fundamentally opposed to turning back up spawn rates; but I would prefer to leave them as they are and let Dwilight develop into a place where PvP conflict can really occur on a large scale. Having it constantly be a non-PvP environment is frustrating. I like colonizing and settling, yes, but I'd like to actually fight someone at some point.
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I also wouldn't be fundamentally opposed to turning back up spawn rates; but I would prefer to leave them as they are and let Dwilight develop into a place where PvP conflict can really occur on a large scale. Having it constantly be a non-PvP environment is frustrating. I like colonizing and settling, yes, but I'd like to actually fight someone at some point.
So why not play in Atamara?
Isn't it exactly that 'frontier feeling' you get on Dwilight that makes it one of the only continents with a stable/increasing noble population?
I'd like to see rogue spawns take a surge as well. Even if we're not ready for it.
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So why not play in Atamara?
Isn't it exactly that 'frontier feeling' you get on Dwilight that makes it one of the only continents with a stable/increasing noble population?
I'd like to see rogue spawns take a surge as well. Even if we're not ready for it.
I think the reason we have so many nobles is because of the frontier feeling, yes. But for different reasons- mostly that opportunities more easily arise, and because it gives a chance to develop something out of that frontier. Speaking only from personal experience, SMA is also one of the reasons I stuck with it. But I certainly didn't come here for mindless attrition against npcs.
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I think the Zuma are annoying because there is no clear purpose for them being there unlike on Beluaterra where the point of those groups in general is complete destruction.
I though BM is supposed to be player against player unless you are on Beluaterra. I haven't heard a concrete reason yet, why there is Dwilight has an exception also on a small part of the continent.
They do have a purpose though, and I hear there are even some nobles getting close to really working it out. The problem has always been that the Zuma are meant to be completely alien. Their thought process is nothing even close to human, which does lead to all sorts of issues. Just remember even among human cultures things that seem like a minor transgression to one group is a major affront to honour in another.
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I had assumed that was the point from the beginning.
I just think it's kind of lame to have the agent of maintaining that disorder on an SMA continent to be arbitrary and ultimately quite uninteresting daimons who have no discernible plot despite, literally, years of living alongside them.
How much have you tried interacting with them? The Zuma could say the same about Terran. Also, who has said that the Zuma are there to maintain disorder? (please do read this response as a whole and not take individual comments on their own as they do relate to other points later on as well)
Dwilight becoming settled would be fine with me. Dwilight being returned to a state of comparative disorder and many realms being destroyed, even Terran, would be fine by me. Having the Zuma around in an active way or a passive way is fine by me.
I just find the Zuma as they are spectacularly boring. They operate on a plotline entirely separate from the rest of Dwilight, and don't even substantively interact with those plotlines. They seem profoundly Gygaxian in their operation (spontaneous massive hordes arrive with little warning or explanation, responding massively to events which seem minor to the rest of the continent and in all of previous BM precedent). They add nothing to the plot and create stagnation in interesting plots.
There is always a reason why the Zuma have done what they have done - it is not spontaneous. As to how they respond to things, you do need to remember that they are not human, are not noble. Why should they be behaving as if they are?
Honestly, I'm just bored with the Zuma by now. So they freak out and burn a region or two. Whatever. There's nothing we can do about it. So they want some items occasionally. Whatever. Not very interesting. Sure, destroy Terran if you feel like it; we can't really stop you if you really want to. Dealing with the Zuma is not rewarding as a player and not very interesting.
Dealing with the Zuma is not going to be easy. Enough hints have been given over the years and some players certainly have understood and have gained through their interactions. Please do not make sweeping statements just because things have not gone how you wanted them to.
Especially when you message Haktoo and get the reply summoning you to Nightscree to talk, and, when you arrive, Haktoo still says practically nothing. It's just a frustrating waste of time.
You weren't summoned, you were told if you wanted to speak you would have to do so in person. Then, when you did get there, you'd clearly already decided it was a waste of your time, had a couple of messages then went into an OOC rant because you didn't like the responses, then left. Seriously, you never even tried to do anything. The whole torture thing was to attempt to get the characters to think about having to torture one of their own for no reason but to appease someone else. Moral conflict and all that. Instead, you did nothing until the day before the deadline when you then decided to complain and talk about meta gaming. If you'd tried interaction at the start, you might have actually got somewhere. Their does need to be some effort on the part of the players you know.
And, in the meantime, it means that conflicts brewing between realms are put on hold. Terran hasn't had such conflict-free foreign policy in months. We're reaching out and making new friends all over the place, and internal conflict is a minimum as we're all in "Hunker down and survive" mode. And every time Hireshmont tries to go and stir something up, the Zuma have another tantrum, and he has to put everything on hold and play peacemaker again.
Whatever the objective of the Zuma is, right now they're accomplishing the result of pushing humanity around them to cooperate, colonize, avoid conflict, and keep politics to a minimum. If the goal of the Zuma is to create pacifist-master, they're close to achieving it in the lands around them.
I agree. I wouldn't mind seeing some realms die; and I honestly don't care which realms. I just would like them to die in some interesting, worthwhile conflict; like how Caerwyn died, maybe. Sudden death by arbitrary Zuma whim doesn't sound very interesting, nor the slow agony of monster spawns. Let human realms solidify, and we will tear each other apart.
As I have said many times, everything the Zuma do is based upon interaction with characters. Nothing has been done on a 'whim'. Your attitude, and shouting it loudly to get everyone else to listen, gets people to make views on the Zuma based on speculation and inaccuracy.
Some players successfully understand them, as is demonstrated by some things that are currently going on (and no, I won't go into any of that as it is all IC things that people will become aware of if they find out about it in game). You clearly don't understand them, and because they haven't done things the way you want them to, have gone into a big negativity campaign.
It's not Beluaterra, I'm not there to just wipe out the players, but I am there. Some people get it, others, such as yourself, so far don't.
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How much have you tried interacting with them? The Zuma could say the same about Terran. Also, who has said that the Zuma are there to maintain disorder? (please do read this response as a whole and not take individual comments on their own as they do relate to other points later on as well)
There is always a reason why the Zuma have done what they have done - it is not spontaneous. As to how they respond to things, you do need to remember that they are not human, are not noble. Why should they be behaving as if they are?
Dealing with the Zuma is not going to be easy. Enough hints have been given over the years and some players certainly have understood and have gained through their interactions. Please do not make sweeping statements just because things have not gone how you wanted them to.
You weren't summoned, you were told if you wanted to speak you would have to do so in person. Then, when you did get there, you'd clearly already decided it was a waste of your time, had a couple of messages then went into an OOC rant because you didn't like the responses, then left. Seriously, you never even tried to do anything. The whole torture thing was to attempt to get the characters to think about having to torture one of their own for no reason but to appease someone else. Moral conflict and all that. Instead, you did nothing until the day before the deadline when you then decided to complain and talk about meta gaming. If you'd tried interaction at the start, you might have actually got somewhere. Their does need to be some effort on the part of the players you know.
As I have said many times, everything the Zuma do is based upon interaction with characters. Nothing has been done on a 'whim'. Your attitude, and shouting it loudly to get everyone else to listen, gets people to make views on the Zuma based on speculation and inaccuracy.
Some players successfully understand them, as is demonstrated by some things that are currently going on (and no, I won't go into any of that as it is all IC things that people will become aware of if they find out about it in game). You clearly don't understand them, and because they haven't done things the way you want them to, have gone into a big negativity campaign.
It's not Beluaterra, I'm not there to just wipe out the players, but I am there. Some people get it, others, such as yourself, so far don't.
Nonsense after all HIS character is the Zuma expert.
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I don't like the Zuma either. I didn't like them when I first heard about them and I still don't like them now. If I want to deal with Daimons, I'll go to Beluaterra. They add nothing to the Dwilight experience IMO. And the speech about "it's not going to be easy dealing with them" just puts me off more. I don't want to have to do a bunch of effort trying to understand something that's been - pardon the phrase - stuffed down my throat for no apparent reason. Again, if I want vague hints and spend my nights deciphering messages from Daimons, I'll go to Beluaterra.
To me, they're nothing but a giant sword of Damocles, precariously hanging over the heads of the Dwilight nobles, ready to fall on them the moment they slip up.
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I don't like the Zuma either. I didn't like them when I first heard about them and I still don't like them now. If I want to deal with Daimons, I'll go to Beluaterra. They add nothing to the Dwilight experience IMO. And the speech about "it's not going to be easy dealing with them" just puts me off more. I don't want to have to do a bunch of effort trying to understand something that's been - pardon the phrase - stuffed down my throat for no apparent reason. Again, if I want vague hints and spend my nights deciphering messages from Daimons, I'll go to Beluaterra.
To me, they're nothing but a giant sword of Damocles, precariously hanging over the heads of the Dwilight nobles, ready to fall on them the moment they slip up.
The fact that they have been on Dwilight since its creation kind of hints that they are meant to be there, and are probably VERY important to the vision of Dwilight as Tom saw it. Having had some dealing with the Zuma I can say they aren't just sitting around waiting to smash any nobles silly enough to cross them. A little common sense is required here, Tom didn't go to the effort of adding them to the game for such a trivial purpose, nor has the GM spent his time over YEARS if all he needed to do was click the travel button on his massive units every now and then.
The Zuma can be vague, but they aren't necessarily so. There is no need to spend hours deciphering stuff, but like all things, some players will happen upon the right path quickly ( either due to inspiration, luck or a perhaps they just have a different mindset/outlook) while others will take longer. It does appear to me that those characters that HAVE the preconceived idea about the Zuma being some unstoppable force that exist to threaten the realms of Dwilight, seem to have greater difficultly getting to the core of the Zuma purpose.
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When did this turn into a post about the Zuma?
Anyway there is as much player attitude in this as mechanics, whoever said my argument was void.
You think you're really supposed to just keep expanding like some cancer until you stretch to your logical boundary? Yeah, mechanics, sure. In the short time I've been playing I've found a bunch of things about how this game works and how many things are really possible. I know as well as anyone else who doesn't have access to the code how stuff works in this game, and for some things, how they break.
But are you supposed to do it? For bugs and exploits, no. But what about the less clear stuff like logging in right before turn change, or playing two adventurers on the same continent trading and hunting together? Those are also mechanically permitted, and not actually things you should not do. And? Well, most people just don't do it.
In this case, there aren't as many monsters, and people also figured out that claiming regions makes them spawn less. This is the result of their own choices and actions. Now they are turning around and complaining of the consequences of their deeds like little kids (Mentally I don't doubt they are)
Make up your minds. Either you do your little empire fantasy and then deal with how that works, meaning less wilderness, more human political mindgames, a bunch of colonization ideas that involve stealing land from other humans. Or you can cut down on your little "take ovah da world!" scheme and try to keep your realm stable and your characters and their players satisfied. You don't HAVE to go out and civilize everything. But if you do, don't complain about it. That's just being childish.
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So why not play in Atamara?
Isn't it exactly that 'frontier feeling' you get on Dwilight that makes it one of the only continents with a stable/increasing noble population?
I'd like to see rogue spawns take a surge as well. Even if we're not ready for it.
Dwilight is big enough and the frontier mentality entrenched enough that PvP conflict would result in enough realms being destroyed regularly enough that wilderness would always remain somewhere.
How much have you tried interacting with them? The Zuma could say the same about Terran. Also, who has said that the Zuma are there to maintain disorder? (please do read this response as a whole and not take individual comments on their own as they do relate to other points later on as well)
My records of the last 30 days (which does not include the actual height of the fiasco) show that I've sent almost 10,000 words of letters to Garret and Haktoo. My correspondence has diminished during these 30 days from previously. If you're seriously saying I haven't tried interacting, then I'm going to go ahead and make the similarly ludicrous statement that you're not actually the Zuma GM. I've gone and sat in Nightscree/Nightmarch a half dozen times over the last 8 months for days on end, with almost nothing to come of it.
And Garret as much as said, both IC and OOC (though he's so "mysterious" he'll probably weasel out of it) that the Zuma are there to maintain disorder.
There is always a reason why the Zuma have done what they have done - it is not spontaneous. As to how they respond to things, you do need to remember that they are not human, are not noble. Why should they be behaving as if they are?
I'm getting really tired of that line. It's stupid. It's an SMA continent. Cool, not human, not noble, whatever. My character is human, and is noble. How you expect me to come up with any kind of plausible RP that involves interesting interaction between the characters while still being SMA is perplexing.
Dealing with the Zuma is not going to be easy.
Really? What a surprise.
Enough hints have been given over the years and some players certainly have understood and have gained through their interactions. Please do not make sweeping statements just because things have not gone how you wanted them to.
No, you don't get it. Things basically have gone as I wanted them to. From my perspective OOCly and Hireshmont's perspective ICly, things are going swimmingly. There has not yet been a point where the Zuma meaningfully interfered with my plans. Rather, they're just annoying. They create peace and stability, which is exactly what Hireshmont wants. But what I as a player want is some kind of conflict, when all the Zuma do is create the perfect conditions for kum-bay-ya diplomacy.
You weren't summoned, you were told if you wanted to speak you would have to do so in person. Then, when you did get there, you'd clearly already decided it was a waste of your time, had a couple of messages then went into an OOC rant because you didn't like the responses, then left.
I no longer have the messages I sent prior to my OOC "Rant," but I don't remember it as a "couple." I remember sitting in Nightmarch and Nightscree for over a week, sending messages and RPs every single day, and getting no response. And I left after Haktoo stopped responding.
Seriously, you never even tried to do anything. The whole torture thing was to attempt to get the characters to think about having to torture one of their own for no reason but to appease someone else. Moral conflict and all that.
So you admit that you as a GM just had some pre-defined and basically arbitrary thing that you wanted us to do for reasons our characters could not hope to understand? "Why does Haktoo want us to torture one of our own?" "Don't you know, Hireshmont? Haktoo thrives on moral dilemmas!" Once again a case where Haktoo has a shocking understanding that characters have players behind them.
And that's the problem. You as a GM seem to have just come up with what you want to happen without reference to what is already happening, and without reference to the RPs of most characters. Maybe that's only a semblance that isn't the case. Which doesn't make me particularly angry, it's just uninteresting, and not worth interacting with. You say we should interact: cool. I've tried. It was boring. Maybe if my trying wasn't enough you should write up a manual, because I'm honestly not sure what more I could have done.
If you'd tried interaction at the start, you might have actually got somewhere. Their does need to be some effort on the part of the players you know.
Again, I'm curious about your apparent selective perception. I have repeatedly interacted with Haktoo. I'm perplexed what constitutes "interaction" if multiple visits, diplomatic agreements, and thousands of words of letters isn't interaction. Is there an "Interact with the GM" button I'm missing somewhere?
As I have said many times, everything the Zuma do is based upon interaction with characters. Nothing has been done on a 'whim'. Your attitude, and shouting it loudly to get everyone else to listen, gets people to make views on the Zuma based on speculation and inaccuracy.
Yeah; Haktoo got one forgery that everyone knew was a forgery, and so went to war with two realms without even telling them why. That is indeed based upon interaction with characters. You're right. It is. It is also a wee bit asymmetric, and has a chilling effect. If I wanted to scheme against the Zuma, frankly, I wouldn't. Too much chance of a message being forwarded. Or I would do it on IRC or something. I don't sent private messages anymore to almost any characters; I always make sure to have multiple recipients, at least one or two of which who I am pretty sure would vouch for me. I do this because of interactions I've had with characters; namely, discovering that there is a character known to command an army somewhere in the range of 5-10 times the size of Terran's who will attack a realm, any realm apparently in Iashalur's case, based, literally, on obviously forged hearsay or one idle comment.
Some players successfully understand them, as is demonstrated by some things that are currently going on (and no, I won't go into any of that as it is all IC things that people will become aware of if they find out about it in game). You clearly don't understand them, and because they haven't done things the way you want them to, have gone into a big negativity campaign.
No, this isn't a big negativity campaign. This is pretty mild by my standards. I'm happy for the people who are successfully understanding whatever it is the Zuma are doing. Neat for them. I hope they have fun playing ZumaBM.
It's not Beluaterra, I'm not there to just wipe out the players, but I am there. Some people get it, others, such as yourself, so far don't.
I'd rather you did wipe out players, personally. That would at least be interesting.
The fact that they have been on Dwilight since its creation kind of hints that they are meant to be there, and are probably VERY important to the vision of Dwilight as Tom saw it.
And Tom's vision of Dwilight now is that it was a mistake. Which means maybe I'm disagreeing with Tom's vision of Dwilight; I think maybe it's become something very much different and probably quite a bit better than he imagined.
Having had some dealing with the Zuma I can say they aren't just sitting around waiting to smash any nobles silly enough to cross them. A little common sense is required here, Tom didn't go to the effort of adding them to the game for such a trivial purpose, nor has the GM spent his time over YEARS if all he needed to do was click the travel button on his massive units every now and then.
I agree with you entirely on every point, and have not said anything against any of that. My point is that I would rather they were just rampaging around killing everything instead of having the chilling effect they have now of basically making sure nothing happens. Want to know why Terran is cozying up with Kabrinskia? The Zuma. Want to know why the Moot has stopped arguing about Madina vs. Aurvandil? The Zuma. Want to know why we've decided to help out Asylon with settling their lands, instead of competing for lands we could take? The Zuma. They shut down conflict at every turn, then harp on the most uninteresting conflicts of all.
The Zuma can be vague, but they aren't necessarily so. There is no need to spend hours deciphering stuff, but like all things, some players will happen upon the right path quickly ( either due to inspiration, luck or a perhaps they just have a different mindset/outlook) while others will take longer. It does appear to me that those characters that HAVE the preconceived idea about the Zuma being some unstoppable force that exist to threaten the realms of Dwilight, seem to have greater difficultly getting to the core of the Zuma purpose.
I don't spend hours deciphering things. I take most interactions with the Zuma at face value. That's how I got to where I am.
Again, I don't think the Zuma are necessarily unstoppable. I think that from all appearances their combat mechanics appear identical to those of the daimons on Beluaterra, and that the armies necessary to contain them do not yet exist on Dwilight. I don't think they exist solely to threaten the realms of Dwilight. For all I know they might exist to encourage BM players to create an entire continent where daimons are normalized like Sirionite Elves on EC, making some kind of great ideological rift in humanity between those who are friendly with daimons on Dwilight or hate daimons on Beluaterra. Maybe.
But the point is that I don't much care about the Zuma's core purpose; I care that all of the behavior they have exhibited ultimately stifles the most enjoyable gameplay aspects for myself, most of the players in the realm of which my character is the ruler, and many other players of characters with whom my characters frequently interact. Yes, I am complaining. I am giving very negative feedback: Zuma GM-- maybe some people are interacting with you and having a great time. But for the several dozen nobles who could be out imperializing Aurvandil or Madina, or harassing Kabrinskia, or invading Luria, or founding a colony in Sallowtown, or who knows what.... they are now sitting around hoarding gold, never going far from home, always ready to respond to whatever next week's Zuma crisis could be. That has been the result of the Zuma's recent decisions in their "near abroad." Maybe the response has been very different elsewhere; could be, I don't know.
And.... I don't understand how Artemesia's post is relevant. He seems to be implying that the proper way to play on Dwilight is not colonize, not wage war, hunker down, and play a maintenance game. I will be very discouraged if that is actually the case. No, I will be discouraged if there is a "proper way to play on Dwilight."
Edit: Accidentally misattributed a quote through copy-pasting; fixed now.
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Dealing with the Zuma is not going to be easy. Enough hints have been given over the years and some players certainly have understood and have gained through their interactions. Please do not make sweeping statements just because things have not gone how you wanted them to.
That didn't work for the Third Invasion, it didn't work for the Fourth Invasion, and I don't particularly see it working here. And by "working" I mean "making things more fun for more players than it makes less fun" because this is a game, and that's kinda the point.
It's stupid. It's an SMA continent. Cool, not human, not noble, whatever. My character is human, and is noble. How you expect me to come up with any kind of plausible RP that involves interesting interaction between the characters while still being SMA is perplexing.
SMA doesn't mean "pretend you are in Europe in the Middle Ages despite all evidence to the contrary" it means "pretend you are a person living in this world starting from that perspective rather than a guy playing a game".
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The whole torture thing was to attempt to get the characters to think about having to torture one of their own for no reason but to appease someone else. Moral conflict and all that. Instead, you did nothing until the day before the deadline when you then decided to complain and talk about meta gaming. If you'd tried interaction at the start, you might have actually got somewhere. Their does need to be some effort on the part of the players you know.
Oh, and that's total crap. Travel takes forever in Dwilight, even for a fairly active priest. We had probably a half dozen items located within 4-5 days, and some of the people are STILL on their way delivering them, or gave up mid-route because travel takes so darn long. Terrence got to Haktoo, what, 25 days after I was notified of his identity? Meaning that there was only realistically 1-5 days left of the actual incident in a torture report? The time limits were actually a neat twist; but ultimately kind of unrealistic with how long travel takes.
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Oh, and that's total crap. Travel takes forever in Dwilight, even for a fairly active priest. We had probably a half dozen items located within 4-5 days, and some of the people are STILL on their way delivering them, or gave up mid-route because travel takes so darn long. Terrence got to Haktoo, what, 25 days after I was notified of his identity? Meaning that there was only realistically 1-5 days left of the actual incident in a torture report? The time limits were actually a neat twist; but ultimately kind of unrealistic with how long travel takes.
You were the one that put the limitation on it that you could only torture Terrence. There were plenty of people that could have been tortured to provide that information so there was nothing unrealistic about the time limits put in place. As for items, were any updates provided or requests for more time? As has been demonstrated by others, there are other ways to get things done which meant that not all the items were required and did also include getting extensions on time limits that had been given.
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You were the one that put the limitation on it that you could only torture Terrence. There were plenty of people that could have been tortured to provide that information so there was nothing unrealistic about the time limits put in place. As for items, were any updates provided or requests for more time? As has been demonstrated by others, there are other ways to get things done which meant that not all the items were required and did also include getting extensions on time limits that had been given.
The time limits weren't a big grief; if you read my comment you'll note that I had a generally positive outlook on them. They contributed a sense of urgency to it that gave some interesting interactions, especially with some Lurians.
But, yes, I believe you did get requests for extensions. No, not believe: I know beyond a shadow of a doubt. I sent you several requests. You granted at least one of them, but I honestly don't remember the rest. Updates.... I think I may have sent one. And I know the Barcans asked for extensions; I saw the messages.
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Since Hireshmont was already there, he could have offered his own body to prove that the letter was a forgery...lol.
And in terms of those items, if Julius wasn't such a crybaby about how he didn't have enough time, things would have gone a lot better. I can say this because he actually sent some letters to me complaining about how impossible it was. And that sniveling was apparently not well received.
You know, in about 99% of all cases I have seen so far (And believe me, I've seen some stupid !@#$ people have done that led the Zuma roflpwning their realms) it was the human character(s) being too dumb to live that led to !@#$ hitting the fan for them.
The problem isn't so much that you guys aren't interacting, but more like...You're interacting in a way that almost seems to me like you WANT to get roflpwned. Because, you know, I'm as much an outsider to the daimon's plans as any other human, so from my perspective, I don't have any personal influences. And so as a neutral third party, I sometimes lol at the things some people do. Like seriously, Athena turned Arachne into a spider because she beat her at weaving. If you think of it a little like that, it might help..maybe.
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Since Hireshmont was already there, he could have offered his own body to prove that the letter was a forgery...lol.
I actually did consider doing exactly that, but then a readthrough of my messages indicated that doing so would be unwise for many other reasons.
The problem isn't so much that you guys aren't interacting, but more like...You're interacting in a way that almost seems to me like you WANT to get roflpwned. Because, you know, I'm as much an outsider to the daimon's plans as any other human, so from my perspective, I don't have any personal influences. And so as a neutral third party, I sometimes lol at the things some people do. Like seriously, Athena turned Arachne into a spider because she beat her at weaving. If you think of it a little like that, it might help..maybe.
This has also largely been my impression; even of many of my own interactions, in hindsight. Problem is that it's harder than you might think to figure out what the right choice is; and even harder to accept that there IS a right choice in a game where, on almost every other continent, there isn't a set plot that has a "right choice;" and even harder to then find a way to make the right choice fit your character's RP.
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Ok, at this point, what I'm getting from our writing is "Blah blah blah words stuff you're wrong I'm right blah blah..."
Right? Wrong? As long as you don't cheat, it's all fair. Keep it in-character? We're not professional roleplayers here, no one is policing you for how realistic you play your character. And if it means you have to bitch whenever you feel as though something isn't up to your standards, then I think I'm not alone in preferring that you not be so stringent in your judgments.
And this is getting weird because your bitching is spanning several threads now.
Can't you figure out a better way to do this? The way you handle it is more fitting for someone like me when I don't give a !@#$ what anyone else thinks (Probably 87.5% of the time). Right now you're proving you're as bad as Artemesia. lololol
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And Garret as much as said, both IC and OOC (though he's so "mysterious" he'll probably weasel out of it) that the Zuma are there to maintain disorder.
FWIW - I wouldn't trust anything Garret says about the purpose of the Zuma, especially in an OOC context. Garret is *not* the Zuma. He's just another normal player like you and me. The only stuff he knows is the stuff that he has inferred from his interactions with the Zuma GM.
I'm not saying that Artemesia is intentionally lying or misleading. It's just that anything that he tells you about the Zuma is his opinion, and nothing more.
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That didn't work for the Third Invasion, it didn't work for the Fourth Invasion, and I don't particularly see it working here. And by "working" I mean "making things more fun for more players than it makes less fun" because this is a game, and that's kinda the point.
Yes, as any experienced game master or dungeon master can attest, it is damn hard to lead players around and drop enough hints for them to work stuff out, without making it too easy and just handing everything over. Even in the current invasion I'm sure players are missing stuff that Tom has thought was obvious, that is just the nature of the beast.
The fact remains that there ARE players that are working out how to deal with the Zuma, and how to make headway with them. Hell for all the complaints about the first King of Asylon, the guy DID manage to get the Zuma to relinquish their claims on several regions and come to an arrangement that meant Ayslon could be founded without fearing instant retaliation by the Zuma. He achieved all that within 2 weeks of learning the Zuma even existed. Perhaps it was dumb luck, or perhaps since he was just a simple knight at the time, and a reasonably new player he didn't go into the negotiations with all the baggage some players are dragging around and clouding their decisions.
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I've always thought Invasions were better off being single player games like Amnesia. Dwilight is rather different since the Zuma could really be considered another realm like any other. As for stuff about how powerful they are and all, well, would you have the balls to go invade Astrum? They're a human realm, so they have no "special advantages" over you.
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yeah but Astrum was built by the hard work of its players... What have the Zuma done? They have 1 human and a bunch of Gm's controlling everything behind a curtain. At least with Astrum I know that if I start starving regions and picking off nobles the king of Astrum isn't just going to code in 5000000cs of humans to turn me back from my folly.
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yeah but Astrum was built by the hard work of its players... What have the Zuma done? They have 1 human and a bunch of Gm's controlling everything behind a curtain. At least with Astrum I know that if I start starving regions and picking off nobles the king of Astrum isn't just going to code in 5000000cs of humans to turn me back from my folly.
That is COMPLETE bull!@#$. First the Zuma GM has no access to the code. Second Tom does NOT allow in human faction to play without rules. Just like the invasions they have clearly defined game mechanics that affect what they can and can't do. Can you even point to evidence to support this view? This is exactly the kind of misinformed lies that directly affect the in game experience. Player that obviously have very little understanding, but have played on the island for a while sprout this crap to new players, who just believe it and suddenly is the common perception.
The inverse of this, if this was even remotely true, you would have more then likely just ensured the destruction of Asylon in game. It is this kind of unfounded !@#$ that mean Toms doesn't really even play his own game, since people were willing to accuse him of cheating whenever he was successful. How sad is that, a game he has spent more then 10 years of his life working on, and because of the players he is a spectator.
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How do they support their massive armies then? all of their land is crap.
I used to enjoy the Zuman aspect of Dwilight until recently. Now I am not so sure of their purpose. I fear all the time they are just going to wipe out our kingdom after months of hard work. They don't have to do anything. At least I know Astrum worked like a dog to get where it is and I can see the land around it that allows them to hold a massive army. I don't see it with the Zuma, I see the Zuma have to trade for food and still maintain huge armies, even though I know my own kingdom who has missed food shipments to them at times. I wonder who is and how are they Zuma supporting huge armies? Are the Zumans only eating half of freds fried chicken?
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Not conforming to the rules *you* have to follow does not mean they don't have a set of rules that govern their behavior. They are not a human, and don't have to follow the same rules you do. But they *do* have rules that govern their behavior.
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How do they support their massive armies then? all of their land is crap.
I used to enjoy the Zuman aspect of Dwilight until recently. Now I am not so sure of their purpose. I fear all the time they are just going to wipe out our kingdom after months of hard work. They don't have to do anything. At least I know Astrum worked like a dog to get where it is and I can see the land around it that allows them to hold a massive army. I don't see it with the Zuma, I see the Zuma have to trade for food and still maintain huge armies, even though I know my own kingdom who has missed food shipments to them at times. I wonder who is and how are they Zuma supporting huge armies? Are the Zumans only eating half of freds fried chicken?
What need have NPC's ever had with managing good land? Do you ask what great regions the Diamons on BT need for their armies? Like I said, there are restrictions, but they are DIFFERENT from human realms. Here is a hint, its not probably not food.
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It's funny how some of the people here seem to know...
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It's funny how some of the people here seem to know...
Some might, after all SOME of are Dev's and from time to time need to work on the code. I personally don't know the specifics of it. I've seen bits and pieces of related code when I was looking at something else, but I certainly can't say what all the restrictions are.
Some others might know cause they have gotten to the IC stage that the Zuma are sharing some of there secrets, I'm not sure if anyone has managed that.
If you want to make some accusations about Dev Members abusing their position though, please don't hide behind vague statements. Come out and say if you think people are cheating. After all I'm sure a ex multi cheat would know all about it.
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De-Legro, Fu-Zuma-off very much thankyou. Lets emphasis 'Ex' multicheat, who had one other account like 3 years ago when I was a noob and first started playing. How many accounts you still rocking?
Hey, Im just pissed the Zumans are f***** Chinese puzzle-box and no matter what we try to do to solve the puzzle we are cold cocked back to square one. Essentially the Zumans are ghosts, they have no meaning asides from being big f**** ghosts with huge armies that will crush us and bully us whenever they want and whenever we say something back to them they just say 'U dumb human no understand Zuma ways ho ho ho"
My kingdom will not interact with the Zumans ever again if this is the case, we have learned our lessonb, for nothing the Zumans say or write is worth !@#$.
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Another point: it's not as though the Zuma were foisted upon the realms of southwest Dwilight. People knew they were there. People knew they weren't to be trifled with, knew that they do interact with you when approached, albeit cryptically sometimes. You don't get to complain about how a situation that has always existed is somehow only now unfair.
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Yeah exactly why Asylon had a peace agreement and land treaties, because you know we thought we had to you know have good relations with the Zumans, you know? Which do not mean !@#$ anyways because we'll never understand the Zumans anyways.
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Yeah exactly why Asylon had a peace agreement and land treaties, because you know we thought we had to you know have good relations with the Zumans, you know? Which do not mean !@#$ anyways because we'll never understand the Zumans anyways.
You're overreacting, acting on partial information, AND being an offensive jerk about it. If you're only going to correct one of these, please try and make it the third one.
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I apologize for the offense jerk stuff.
I just wish that the treaties and peace we had meant something IG and I am a bit annoyed that our realm is being treated the way it is being treated after a whole bunch of stuff we have tried to do to make relations better. Its annoying because we actually tried and now we are being told that we 'Dont understand the Zuma' and all our treaties were basically signed with the 'Ambassador of the Zuma' only. Its annoying because we might as well have stayed on the same footing as Terran and Barca, hell it was a mistake to even try and figure them out, it means nothing, the one thing Dwilight can learn from their interactions with the Zuma is that it means absolutely nothing at all.
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I apologize for the offense jerk stuff.
I just wish that the treaties and peace we had meant something IG and I am a bit annoyed that our realm is being treated the way it is being treated after a whole bunch of stuff we have tried to do to make relations better. Its annoying because we actually tried and now we are being told that we 'Dont understand the Zuma' and all our treaties were basically signed with the 'Ambassador of the Zuma' only. Its annoying because we might as well have stayed on the same footing as Terran and Barca, hell it was a mistake to even try and figure them out, it means nothing, the one thing Dwilight can learn from their interactions with the Zuma is that it means absolutely nothing at all.
Cause you know, HUMAN relams NEVER ignore treaties. Or end them as soon as they serve their purposes. No human realm ever decides another realm is no longer worth having treaties with, or is so ignoble that all previous treaties are now void.
This ignore the fact that pretty much the first and BASE treaty of Asylon was broken by the revolt. Asylon was only allowed to govern those lands so long as the looked after the native human tribes and held there respect. Regions revolting against your lordship might imply failure in that regard. Once a foundation treaty is broken, how much wait does any subsequent treaty still hold?
De-Legro, Fu-Zuma-off very much thankyou. Lets emphasis 'Ex' multicheat, who had one other account like 3 years ago when I was a noob and first started playing. How many accounts you still rocking?
Sorry, never multi cheated. This account is the first and only account I've played, and it has never been locked, ever.My wife thinks I spend too much time playing a single account, no way I'm going to get away with playing more even if I had the inclination. If you think otherwise report it to the titans. If you are going to continue to slander and make baseless accusations, then at least do it in game were there is some recourse against fools making false accusations of cheating.
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Here's one thing I don't understand:
Everyone that is currently living near the Zuma did so by choice. The Zuma were there way before you ever created your realm there. They have been there since the creation of Dwilight (or very very soon thereafter) and it has been known by everyone where their main base of operations is.
If someone chooses to settle next to someone who is an unknown level of threat, then they need to deal with that. If you choose to colonize a city far away from other realms, then you have to deal with extra rogues fighting you. If you rebel against your ruler, then you also have to deal with those consequences.
The simple idea is that each of these realms that are now "having" to interact with the Zuma chose to do so. I could have easily had my character join in the expedition that created some of those realms that are now so easily able to be destroyed by the Zuma, but instead had them stay in Luria even though I could have had one of the ruling characters. What I'm trying to say is that the players all understood clearly what they could be getting themselves into when they made their decisions. Perhaps new players joining the realms later first starting the game did not, but the leaders knew and were aware.
Finally, there ARE ways to deal with the Zuma and there ARE goals that they have. Some people on Dwilight do have a decent idea of what these are. If they don't tell those that could use the information the most, well perhaps IC and SMA wise, that is a strategic decision or more helpful for them.
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and all our treaties were basically signed with the 'Ambassador of the Zuma' only.
Actually, that part is something the Zuma have let known in the past (At least my character Marche figured that out eventually). You can't 100% rely on the Ambassador's words being the Zuma's. If you really want to interact with the Zuma, you have to talk to them directly.
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/me looks around. Wonders if he should somewhat settle the matter since he's not technically a member of the Dev Team and probably isn't bound to keeping mum about aspects of the code he just happened to accidentally bump across.
So...first, about the whole rules thing: Nothing new. I find it odd that people complain about the daimons so vocally with the thought that it makes a difference, but not many people anymore are complaining about how rogue spawns are unfair (Well they did before but that was more along the lines of how much they "randomly" spawned rather than "the guy controlling them is too powerful")
That's technically not true. In some very distant but still present sense, whoever injects the monster/undead spawn code is indirectly controlling your rogue fates. But you guys don't have a convenient target for that. And so the result is that you end up dealing with the monsters and undead as a matter of course.
Ok, so you say that the daimons are being controlled by a player who can think and coordinate attacks. First of all, how many of you have seen how the daimons move? How often have you seen their attack methods, or tactics? I won't share this, but I'm sure there are people out there who'd be happy to explain all the details about how they actually move. Whether this is mechanical or voluntary isn't something I care to speculate about.
Now about the whole units popping out of regions that have "poor stats": Those stats really only matter for humans. Ever wonder where those monsters and undead are popping out from in rogue regions that have zeros across the board and one population (contributed by that contractually invincible one peasant). Has it occurred to any of you that there are stats that humans can't see? Obviously it should have, because adventurers get vague hints at those "hidden" stats when they investigate the monster/undead situation.
Are the daimons restricted by something similar? I'm just a normal player, never been privy to the stuff the Dev Team has, never been an NPC player, never read Tom's mind. Anything and everything I know was gained and deduced by the same methods available to all of you. The fact that I am sitting in the Zuma Coalition means nothing because I am not the GM, I am not privy to any special information, and most of all, there are certain mechanics in place that prevent me from actually seeing some stuff.
And I'm not even one of the smarter players, so you wonder what the more observant and sharper ones have figured out. People can think I'm a jerk, but you know, the ones who will end up actually messing up your happy poo poo are the smart ones who stay silent and watch while you flail about and manipulate things in their safe little corners, all of us none the wiser.
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Actually, that part is something the Zuma have let known in the past (At least my character Marche figured that out eventually). You can't 100% rely on the Ambassador's words being the Zuma's. If you really want to interact with the Zuma, you have to talk to them directly.
I don't think enough people know or fully comprehend that it is generally safer to talk to Garret than a daimon. Let me give you an example that I think is quite descriptive and clear.
The Mysterious Island
You are an explorer who has sailed far away from your homeland. After weeks you and your crew have at last discovered a remote but fairly large island. Once you disembark, you discover evidence that there are other humans living here. You continue to investigate until you come across a village unlike any you have ever seen.
The buildings look primitive and strange. The people have differently colored skin, dress in odd garments, and are painted in all sorts of bright colors that make you feel dizzy. They make noises from their mouths that you cannot understand. You are surrounded by these people until someone speaks in a language you understand.
He looks like you. Dresses a bit less fancily, but nevertheless it is something you have seen. He talks like you, even knows some of your homeland's customs. But you do not really trust him, for good reason, because you do not know how he came to be among these strange people and why he alone of the people like you, outsiders, is able to live there.
He tells you that the people here are humans like him and you. He furthermore tells you that they worship ancient beings that are powerful and terrible to behold. You are curious and decide you want to talk directly to those ancient beings. He tries to persuade you not to, for he says that they are not human and would not understand or care about human concerns like he can.
But you do not listen and go anyway. You find that there are in fact several of these beings and they match the description of dinosaurs that some of your paleontologists have discovered the remains of. You are fascinated, and you approach one of them.
It is a Brontosaurus, a herbivore, whose neck stretches far like a bridge over the canopy of trees. Its body is massive, and its legs like pillars supporting a monument to gods unknown to your kind. You are lucky, for it looks at you, listens to you talk, and simply turns away and leaves. Sound like thunder accompanies its every step.
You are not satisfied. Surely if those beings are worshiped by the strange humans you encountered before, then they are intelligent? The human who looked like you even said as much. You decide you must receive a response from one of them.
Then you meet another one of these beings. Before you can react, you feel a sharp pain, as though your body has been torn in half. The last thing you see before your vision fades completely is a maw of many massive teeth sharp as daggers and several times as large. It is a Tyranosaur.
Good job, explorer. You have become a meal for one of the natives' gods.
End of story. Please return to page 1 and start your adventure again.
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Oh That's for sure. Garret does play an important role as Ambassador. But that doesn't mean that if you agree on something with Garret, you automatically always agree on something with the Zuma :) Some (/Most) matters are better discussed with Garret, some with the Zuma themselves. You just need to know how to talk to them and how to behave around them. And that's one heck of a difficult thing. Had my character not approached Garret in the beginning with matters and instead had gone to the Zuma directly, I'm pretty sure D'Hara would have at least been very close to suffering another Zuma attack.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, Haktoo is a daimon. And she has intitated contact with humans, even talking to them in their own language. Furthermore, for as far as I know, there's no way to contact the people that live under the daimon rule.
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Haktoo's like the calm herbivore that can still stomp you to a little pulp if needed. But probably would at least listen to what you have to say.
There are daimonic "carnivores", believe me. Garret doesn't dare to approach them either.
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Cause you know, HUMAN relams NEVER ignore treaties. Or end them as soon as they serve their purposes. No human realm ever decides another realm is no longer worth having treaties with, or is so ignoble that all previous treaties are now void.
This ignore the fact that pretty much the first and BASE treaty of Asylon was broken by the revolt. Asylon was only allowed to govern those lands so long as the looked after the native human tribes and held there respect. Regions revolting against your lordship might imply failure in that regard. Once a foundation treaty is broken, how much wait does any subsequent treaty still hold?
Sorry, never multi cheated. This account is the first and only account I've played, and it has never been locked, ever.My wife thinks I spend too much time playing a single account, no way I'm going to get away with playing more even if I had the inclination. If you think otherwise report it to the titans. If you are going to continue to slander and make baseless accusations, then at least do it in game were there is some recourse against fools making false accusations of cheating.
There's a difference here, and it's not insignificant. The difference is that when a human realm, led by PLAYERS, decides not to honor a treaty it generates player versus players conflict, which as we all know is good for BM. When an NPC realm, led by a faceless GM, decides not to honor a treaty, it leads to the human realm feeling screwed, witness Glaumring's reaction to it all. After all, it's not like Asylon can turn to military conflict to redress the grievance they now have, because the Zuma are overwhelmingly powerful in that department. Instead, it's like the GM is saying 'HA! Gotcha! You should have been more careful, and because you weren't it's your own fault that now we're screwing you! Nyah nyah!'
Can anyone here seriously NOT see why that wouldn't piss someone off? All you people who are defending the Zuma don't generally have to deal with them IC (except for Artemesia who doesn't count because he works for them), and as far as I know none of you choose to do so. On the other hand the people that do complain are generally the ones that do. That is pretty notable, don't you think?
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So basically for the sake of making Dwilight a better place so that we can start playing we must unite and wipe out the Daimons. Just to make the game better.
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Or, if Glaumring really were interested in promoting PVP conflict instead of immediately feeling indignant, he'd take issue with the guy who presented the treaty to the daimons and Garret in the first place: Moritz.
Who do you think even came up with t idea? It wasn't a daimon. It wasn't Garret. It was a human who was ruler of their very realm. Moritz von Igelfeld, King of Asylon, predecessor of Glaumring. Obviously there was not enough communication there, or Moritz conveniently didn't fill Glaumring in about the whole "The treaties are signed because humans think it's important. To the daimons they are meaningless." It's been a long time, but I did mention it to Moritz in a subtle way.
But no, that apparently never came into consideration. Never did you think "Oh hey, did the previous ruler(s) who knew about the details fail to fill me in on just how important the treaties actually are before I spouted a bunch of nonsense that made me look like an ignorant fool?" No...In this specific case, Glaumring just out and spouted off about treaties that, to me, clearly indicated he never cared to ask just how significant they were.
Sure, you probably hate the whole "You never asked" response. But really...you never asked. And let this then teach you to ask. And ask your fellow humans, not Garret or the daimons, because anything that's there for you to ask should first be asked of the humans who decided to approach and do stuff.
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Oh god you have a response for everything. Its a game guys, some of us dont spend real life days in BM getting to the root of evey nuance of BM life.
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Ah yes, sure, real life. How long do you think it took me to think of that? A few seconds. Took me longer to type that out in fact.
Besides, it IS a game, so why are you so upset? Pick one or the other dude.
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Yeah, so basically dont have an opinion or try to make the game better is what your saying.
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You've long past stated your opinion. It was duly noted and appreciated. After that just came complaining.
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Oh god you have a response for everything.
You know, sometimes, when people you're arguing with have a counter for every argument you make...
...it's because they actually know what they're talking about and have logic and reason on their side.
But that couldn't possibly be the case here. No, it must just be that we all have no life, and therefore all our arguments are meaningless because we can take all day to think them up, while you only have the 5 minutes that is stated as the amount of time you need each day to play BattleMaster.
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I wasnt talking to you.
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There's a difference here, and it's not insignificant. The difference is that when a human realm, led by PLAYERS, decides not to honor a treaty it generates player versus players conflict, which as we all know is good for BM. When an NPC realm, led by a faceless GM, decides not to honor a treaty, it leads to the human realm feeling screwed, witness Glaumring's reaction to it all. After all, it's not like Asylon can turn to military conflict to redress the grievance they now have, because the Zuma are overwhelmingly powerful in that department. Instead, it's like the GM is saying 'HA! Gotcha! You should have been more careful, and because you weren't it's your own fault that now we're screwing you! Nyah nyah!'
Can anyone here seriously NOT see why that wouldn't piss someone off? All you people who are defending the Zuma don't generally have to deal with them IC (except for Artemesia who doesn't count because he works for them), and as far as I know none of you choose to do so. On the other hand the people that do complain are generally the ones that do. That is pretty notable, don't you think?
This.
Actually, that part is something the Zuma have let known in the past (At least my character Marche figured that out eventually). You can't 100% rely on the Ambassador's words being the Zuma's. If you really want to interact with the Zuma, you have to talk to them directly.
Indeed, I had some suspicions for a while, but the recent chain of events has revealed this to be very, very true.
Here's one thing I don't understand:
Everyone that is currently living near the Zuma did so by choice.
Everyone in West Africa in the early 1800's who got kidnapped and sold into slavery, lived in West Africa by choice. Guess they should have moved; getting enslaved was their own damn fault. They knew slavery was a part of human culture.
No, in all seriousness, that's a BS argument. The Zuma of the last 2 months are totally unrecognizable in their behavior from the Zuma of the last several years. They have become meddling, active players. They were a kind of ominous rumbling to the east that was ultimately fairly benign earlier; now, they're looking more like Overlord every day. I've actually wondered if maybe Koli's IC suspicions about an Invasion might be right in an OOC way: maybe the Zuma GM plays on Beluaterra, so what was happening there, and went, "Ooo, me too!"
Yes, we chose to be where we were. But the Zuma are way more powerful now than in the past. When we first arrived, they sometimes struggled to put 10k CS into the field. After they became the "Zuma Coalition" (they were not always the Zuma Coalition), they got way more powerful. And now I wish Vesna Valentine would come back... never thought I'd wish that...
The old Zuma would occasionally do a fairly isolated rampage. The new Zuma are apparently in the business of claiming new regions, interfering in others realms' internal politics, etc.
it has been known by everyone where their main base of operations is.
Only generally. Given that the Zuma have different limiting factors (not responding to that discussion; I understand Glaumring's frustration, but I am well aware that the Zuma have limitations of their own--- and I know generally how they move, probably even what line settings would be best against them, etc), it's unclear what regions might be their most important base. Dragon Song? Ruins? Nightscree? Nightmarch?
The simple idea is that each of these realms that are now "having" to interact with the Zuma chose to do so. I could have easily had my character join in the expedition that created some of those realms that are now so easily able to be destroyed by the Zuma, but instead had them stay in Luria even though I could have had one of the ruling characters.
Well, isn't hindsight just amazing?
What I'm trying to say is that the players all understood clearly what they could be getting themselves into when they made their decisions. Perhaps new players joining the realms later first starting the game did not, but the leaders knew and were aware.
That's not true at all. We did not. None of us anticipated this kind of activity from the Zuma. If we had, we wouldn't be here. We'd be up in, like, Gaston or something. How do I know this? Because I remember when Terran had just a few regions and the Zuma appeared on the horizon, and we were all like "Ummm... uh oh." And we fought them; in absolute terms a small battle, but still the biggest non-rogue vs. non-rogue battle to have occurred in the area outside of Paisly and Candiels to this day. It was big compared to the forces available in the Maroccidens; especially considering the Zuma weren't fielding 50,000 CS at that time. We fought'em; I forget if we actually won or lost, but it ended with the Zuma being all like "We respect your warrior spirit; you can colonize these lands, yada yada yada."
The realm leaders at the time, if the Zuma didn't let us stay, were considering calling Terran off.
So no, we did not choose the Zuma. And besides, of those original players, a total of about 3 remain anywhere in the Zuma periphery. The new players, especially the ones that had a character in Asylon, Terran, or Barca as their first character in BM, did not know much of this. Zuma were ancient lore from Terran's early days, or an occasional random rampage.
Finally, there ARE ways to deal with the Zuma and there ARE goals that they have.
Neat. We were told there were ways to win the last few invasions. How did those invasions end? They fizzled out without anyone understanding what was happening or figuring them out (or, if they did, they kept it secret from most players, which doesn't make for great gameplay either). The current invasion looks to be much better done, IMHO; I'm very optimistic about it.
But the real question is: why should I want to know what the Zuma's goals are? Because they'll destroy me otherwise? That's a poor argument. They didn't start threatening Terran until people started talking about them and trying to figure out what they wanted. The Zuma will go to war, or at least something close enough to it, over one or two idle comments from torture reports. Why on earth would I risk trying to figure out what their purpose is? Because it would give me the key to defeating them? Oh cool; I can kill the Zuma, take their crappy land, and deal with 2x as many monster spawns! Because those regions are less valuable to me than to the Zuma, I'll be less able to manage them. Because it would give me lots of gold (that's what Vesna Valentine did)? Uh... great. I already have about 10-15k gold stashed away in various places; not really worried about gold. Because there's a fame point? That would be a neat enticement.... but you can't very well advertise that can you? Because there's honor and prestige? Um, yeah, not worth it.
The only reason to want to figure out the Zuma's goals is if doing so represents a compelling storyline worth investing the very significant time and energy. It's not worth it to me; I haven't seen evidence that their storyline is that spectacular. Not even actually sure they have a clear one.
But there's a bigger concern....
Yes, as any experienced game master or dungeon master can attest, it is damn hard to lead players around and drop enough hints for them to work stuff out, without making it too easy and just handing everything over. Even in the current invasion I'm sure players are missing stuff that Tom has thought was obvious, that is just the nature of the beast.
Absolutely. I regularly DM a several different games. It is hard. Well, not really; it's not that hard actually, but it takes a little bit of planning.
But the point is that your comparison betrayed you. "Even in the current invasion..." nobody ever advertised Dwilight as "An only partially invaded version of Beluaterra." No one. Not ever. Most players have been playing it as a more rugged, survivalist, SMA version of the gameplay on other continents: less PvP because resources are strapped, but still, in principle, an open-ended player-driven game with a player-generated plot. This is a huge part of my complaint with the Zuma: they don't fit with that. They might be great on Beluaterra; but Dwilight was never advertised as like Beluaterra. There's no reason Dwilight should have anything for players to be lead through, or to need working out.
Unless, of course, it adds significantly to the fun of the game. Which presumably is what the poll in the other thread is about. But I will return you to Geronus' comment: the people who like the Zuma are those who don't actually have to deal with them.
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Vellos says it the way I wish I could . Straight up.
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No, in all seriousness, that's a BS argument. The Zuma of the last 2 months are totally unrecognizable in their behavior from the Zuma of the last several years. They have become meddling, active players. They were a kind of ominous rumbling to the east that was ultimately fairly benign earlier; now, they're looking more like Overlord every day. I've actually wondered if maybe Koli's IC suspicions about an Invasion might be right in an OOC way: maybe the Zuma GM plays on Beluaterra, so what was happening there, and went, "Ooo, me too!"
I will point out, because it may be considered important, that while I believe both IC and OOC that an Invasion of Dwilight is possible, and perhaps even likely, this is solely as a player, not as a Dev. I've had no word from Tom or anyone else about it beyond public stuff on the forum. However, I am led me to that conclusion because:
IC: Zuma start being active right as the Fifth Invasion, which Koli believes will finish Beluaterra, begins, and start trying to gather up or prevent others from gathering items which have made a difference on Beluaterra;
OOC: Tom has stated that he thinks Dwilight was a mistake, and reducing game land area is one way to solve the underpopulation problem, with the increased virulence of the Invasions and possibility of losing BT a direct effect of the underpopulation problem. Thus I think OOC that it's entirely possible that the NPC factions may end up acting as a safety valve, and gobbling up territory to help reduce the underpopulation issue...And then if/when it becomes less of an issue we can take the fight to them to recover territory.
Again, I stress this is all speculation as a player, and I have no knowledge (and am now actively avoiding acquiring new knowledge on Invasion-y subjects) as a Dev.
Only generally. Given that the Zuma have different limiting factors (not responding to that discussion; I understand Glaumring's frustration, but I am well aware that the Zuma have limitations of their own--- and I know generally how they move, probably even what line settings would be best against them, etc), it's unclear what regions might be their most important base. Dragon Song? Ruins? Nightscree? Nightmarch?
The fact that there is no effective way to actually figure out certain things about the game is something Rob and I have argued in the dev team repeatedly. Tom has, at least on a few points, agreed that this is a real problem, and steps are being taken to amend them by generating new messages that will point you in the right direction. The various faction spawn rates are one I hadn't considered before, but will make sure to bring up when the Doctrine conversion is finished, and I will see if Tom will let at least a general idea of Daimon spawn mechanics out the way very general ideas of undead and monster spawn mechanics have.
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Dwilight the best server in BM a mistake... Great...
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I will point out, because it may be considered important, that while I believe both IC and OOC that an Invasion of Dwilight is possible, and perhaps even likely, this is solely as a player, not as a Dev. I've had no word from Tom or anyone else about it beyond public stuff on the forum. However, I am led me to that conclusion because:
Oh, I hadn't assumed you had any special knowledge at all. Just cited you as you're the first one I heard that idea from.
But I don't think they're being used as population control. The Zuma GM earlier, in one of these threads, at least seemed to indicate that destroying realms and causing disorder wasn't their purpose. Not the same thing, maybe, but still.
The fact that there is no effective way to actually figure out certain things about the game is something Rob and I have argued in the dev team repeatedly. Tom has, at least on a few points, agreed that this is a real problem, and steps are being taken to amend them by generating new messages that will point you in the right direction. The various faction spawn rates are one I hadn't considered before, but will make sure to bring up when the Doctrine conversion is finished, and I will see if Tom will let at least a general idea of Daimon spawn mechanics out the way very general ideas of undead and monster spawn mechanics have.
That would be extremely helpful. And plausible to have: it would make sense that, living alongside the Zuma for decades now, have sent many people into Zuma lands, we could at least have some general idea where and how they get at least some of their reinforcements.
Dwilight the best server in BM a mistake... Great...
No kidding.
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Dwilight the best server in BM a mistake... Great...
I think the reason it's a 'mistake' is because a lot of people have put a lot of time and energy into their Dwilight characters, to the detriment of their other characters. My other 3 characters combined take up as much time as my Dwilight character, at least some of the time. I certainly get more...inspired, I guess, thinking about interacting with the Zuma and gathering food for D'Hara, than I do about fighting CE or Archaron or Oriolton. Isn't it strange that I find the food game on Dwilight more interesting than battles on Atamara?
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I reckon we know about as much about daimon mechanics as the other NPCs. There's also the peasant mechanics, the often forgotten NPC units because they're so weak. I mean, those are even human units that can be (ab)used by players to act as cannon fodder in a damaging retreat tactic. Well, I suppose some people know how those work, generally. But yeah, right now, with what we have, some of us can put enough pieces together to have something to work with. Most of us have a general idea. The rest is up to the internet factory to produce the end result, which really doesn't require the input of people who know the actual code. I mean, you can look at the examples of Gamefaqs where often people uninvolved in the production of the game, and often not even testers, would collaborate on just about every single game and have a 100% walkthrough posted within days of release.
I am in the same boat as everyone else who's not a Dev or an NPC player, and never has been when I say the following. These deductions have nothing to do with where I play. I think that after reading through you will also realize that you would have come to similar conclusions as well if you paid attention to how your adventurer reacted.
I can see that daimons are NPC units, just like monsters and undead and peasants. Based on what I have seen from the latter three, I believe two things.
1. The units have a certain resource that converts to units. For monsters and undead, these are separate variables that can be seen indirectly and vaguely by adventurers. These separate variables, called "Monsters" and "Undead" for convenience, might have a certain threshold above which the raw resource variable "Monsters" and "Undead" are converted to actual units. The ratio of conversion might differ (Generally I believe that the ratio of raw resource:actual units is lower for Undead than for Monsters, which means for each raw resource of undead, you get more undead). I believe that another factor determines the conversion ratio: Quality of unit. With a recent addition, adventurers can investigate monster/undead units, and can confirm that they do in fact have equipment stats. I believe that higher equipment stats shift the conversion ratio down (meaning fewer units for a given resource value) For peasants, I believe that the resource comes directly from the region's population in a 1:1 ratio. The equipment is determined randomly from low values, and I think the morale is that of the region, with a random low cohesion value, possibly. Basically, peasants have about the same mechanics as militia raised directly in a region, except their resource pool comes from population directly.
2. This resource is finite, but not incapable of regenerating. Obviously regions can still spawn monsters and undead even after you defeat the hordes, and if adventurers fail to hunt in them for too long. For peasants as well, population can increase...obviously. Based on these observations, I believe that the daimon resource probably also regenerates over time, or some other factor (like how population increase is assisted if you actually keep them fed). I do not know whether there exists a hard cap on the raw daimon resources. However, based on observation of how the other three NPCs work, I believe that daimon resources are individualized for each region, much like how every region has its own monster/undead spawning, as well as its own population. The difficulty, however, is that at certain threshold levels monsters and undead spawn, which consequently lower the "Monster" and "Undead" resources (By the way, these two resource values are separate, despite how I have thusfar referred to them together. The two are independent values as far as I know.) As well, Population has a hard cap, and it is an overt stat. Peasants also directly decrease population, their "resource" (I think. It seems as though those peasant militia take from population since the population decreases coincidentally by the same number as militia form.) But here's the problem: There are no spontaneous daimon spawns. That means I do not know whether there is a cap where no matter how much time passes, the daimon resource stays at that maximum, or whether it can keep going until there is a really high amount of potential daimons lying in wait.
Furthermore, I do not know if daimon resources are limited to any certain regions. Based on the other three, it appears that every region on the continent has the resources for monsters, undead, and peasants. There is no evidence to suggest that daimon resources do not also exist on every region in the continent. There is also no evidence to suggest that NPCs must recruit in their own regions. If anything, the 4th Inv suggested that they do not. But again, I do not know if that's true for Dwilight.
So there you go: My observations as a normal player who has figured the above out without any external help. Yes, I later on learned a few more things accidentally, but I was careful not to mention any of that and to ensure that what I wrote here is really something any other player can figure out as well. Go ahead and review. You'd probably have gotten as far as me on your own, if not further.
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Not bad. So to be determined:
Do the Zuma have to recruit in their capital (which I think is Nightscree), or can they recruit in any of their regions, or can they recruit anywhere on Dwilight?
Are there 'portals' of some sort that the Daimons come through from the Netherworld, and if so, can they be closed or destroyed, like recruiting centers?
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Some speculation based on what Juan saw in the Zuma lands back in 2008-2009.
1) The Zuma insist there troops are human. This might be purely a RP thing or it might affect game mechanics
2) Zuma regions suck in population and production
3) I never saw any RC's
This would imply to me that they don't need to recruit in the capital, or if they do it is not through the normal RC system. The lack of RC's and the fact that even if they existed they wouldn't recruit men pretty much rules them out in my mind. I've never heard of them recruiting outside of their realm, but then they don't often travel outside of the realm.
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Not bad for stating the obvious.
Daimons have a resource value limiting their spawn? Amazing. I bet you could even come to the shockingly inventive conclusion that daimons only exist as units raised by daimon leaders, either as militia or mobile. What a revolutionary conclusion. That helps SO MUCH. It's nice to know that somewhere in the game's programming there is programming that covers daimon recruitment. I would not have guessed such a thing Artemesia, thank you.
/sarcasm
This isn't useful information. Useful information would be something like, "Daimons recruit more easily in townslands" or "Daimons can convert peasants to soldiers at a rate of X" or "Unique items give Daimons an advantage in stat X" or "Daimonic recruitment declines as distance from capital increases" or something like that.
egamma's questions are good ones. What with FangFang's march north, I am very curious about daimonic movement now. De-Legro's comments about RCs and stats are accurate, though population has risen since then. The comment regarding human warriors is outdated; I haven't heard them make any insistences to that effect recently, and some RPs seemed clearly to be able daimon warriors. Under Vates, the Zuma were more like daimonic nobility ruling the barbarian Zuma. Under Haktoo they've changed significantly.
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Not bad for stating the obvious.
Daimons have a resource value limiting their spawn? Amazing. I bet you could even come to the shockingly inventive conclusion that daimons only exist as units raised by daimon leaders, either as militia or mobile. What a revolutionary conclusion. That helps SO MUCH. It's nice to know that somewhere in the game's programming there is programming that covers daimon recruitment. I would not have guessed such a thing Artemesia, thank you.
/sarcasm
This isn't useful information. Useful information would be something like, "Daimons recruit more easily in townslands" or "Daimons can convert peasants to soldiers at a rate of X" or "Unique items give Daimons an advantage in stat X" or "Daimonic recruitment declines as distance from capital increases" or something like that.
egamma's questions are good ones. What with FangFang's march north, I am very curious about daimonic movement now. De-Legro's comments about RCs and stats are accurate, though population has risen since then. The comment regarding human warriors is outdated; I haven't heard them make any insistences to that effect recently, and some RPs seemed clearly to be able daimon warriors. Under Vates, the Zuma were more like daimonic nobility ruling the barbarian Zuma. Under Haktoo they've changed significantly.
Information on that level has never been revealed for an invasion, the chances of it being revealed for the Zuma are slight. You might be able to get the Zuma ingame to reveal such things, I have no idea what the guidelines for the GM say in that regard. the GM behind Haktoo has been with the Zuma from the start, there might be some diamons within the forces, but in general the Zuma remain as they always have, Daimon overlords of a human realm. What I don't know is if the "human" troops is entirely RP thing or if it is supported by game mechanics. The CS of the troops suggest if they are "human" within the game, then they are damn good SF.
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Not bad for stating the obvious.
Daimons have a resource value limiting their spawn? Amazing. I bet you could even come to the shockingly inventive conclusion that daimons only exist as units raised by daimon leaders, either as militia or mobile. What a revolutionary conclusion. That helps SO MUCH. It's nice to know that somewhere in the game's programming there is programming that covers daimon recruitment. I would not have guessed such a thing Artemesia, thank you.
/sarcasm
This isn't useful information. Useful information would be something like, "Daimons recruit more easily in townslands" or "Daimons can convert peasants to soldiers at a rate of X" or "Unique items give Daimons an advantage in stat X" or "Daimonic recruitment declines as distance from capital increases" or something like that.
egamma's questions are good ones. What with FangFang's march north, I am very curious about daimonic movement now. De-Legro's comments about RCs and stats are accurate, though population has risen since then. The comment regarding human warriors is outdated; I haven't heard them make any insistences to that effect recently, and some RPs seemed clearly to be able daimon warriors. Under Vates, the Zuma were more like daimonic nobility ruling the barbarian Zuma. Under Haktoo they've changed significantly.
Goddamn, man, what I did was much better than you going off bitching about the Zuma. If it was so obvious why were people still confused about some of the very things I managed to explain?
Really? Everyone knew that the daimons had some resource that they take from? Did you really know that there was a cap? Because you know...In some cases in the past, there were special powers apparently granted where there was no such thing. That's pretty much why before the 4th Invasion you saw a huge bigass unit that roflstomped a !@#$ton.
But more importantly, you're showing how much more arrogant and self-absorbed you are than me.
I don't presume to think that what I said was obvious. I decided to share what I discovered, knowing that I'm not the smartest player out there, but still brave enough to share the little I knew knowing that I might show how ignorant I am.
You come back with your nice little sarcasm, presuming to speak for everyone by saying how obvious it is. Did you care that some people really might not have known this because they didn't really think about it? Most people probably don't think about game mechanics like NPC rules because it really doesn't affect them. But some of them might get curious once they know they exist, and so I was trying to help them out.
So here's my dose of sarcasm mode for you, Mr. Vellos.
<sarcasm>
You certainly display the poise of an excellent player who chooses not to lower himself to the level of his opponents. You admirably show that you can hold yourself above your base emotions, and can remain civil despite how those around you become less than civil. You are a prime example of how a player should act on the forums.
</sarcasm>
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It's a tautology, Artemesia. If the daimons exist IG, they must have a resource somewhere in the game to represent them. Things in the game interface we observe don't exist independently. They are the programming and the programming is them. Saying, "They come from regions" is also fairly obvious; especially given the observable mechanics and things said during the current invasion on Beluaterra.
Sure, some players who have never interacted with the Zuma or any daimons on any significant level might not know these things and might not be able to get them IG.
That also probably means they live off in the wild blue yonder far from the daimons. Anybody who lives near them has been somewhat significantly motivated to consider these things. If they haven't gotten to the conclusion that, yes, daimons are separate in-game units, then seriously, they must not look at scout reports. I was sarcastic because your rather detailed and long-winded explanation, as far as I could tell, amounted to about as much as was figured out in the first 30 minutes of the Fourth Invasion. And, strangely enough... humanity didn't really win that Invasion.
I'm fine with Beluaterra being sunk; it's the Invasion island, whatever. Dwilight has never been advertised that way. I'd rather prefer not to have the same fate happen to it, which means having information of strategic relevance.
Information on that level has never been revealed for an invasion, the chances of it being revealed for the Zuma are slight. You might be able to get the Zuma ingame to reveal such things, I have no idea what the guidelines for the GM say in that regard. the GM behind Haktoo has been with the Zuma from the start, there might be some diamons within the forces, but in general the Zuma remain as they always have, Daimon overlords of a human realm. What I don't know is if the "human" troops is entirely RP thing or if it is supported by game mechanics. The CS of the troops suggest if they are "human" within the game, then they are damn good SF.
I'm not asking for the GM to reveal it; sorry if it came out that way. I understand GMs have limitations; absolutely. I don't want them to break their rules.
Rather, as the Zuma allow people to live among them or near them to some degree, I was hoping that better intel might be available from normal observation. Barca may have battle reports from the Zuma that could speak to their troops. FangFang's march north seems to me to indicate that they can recruit anywhere, as they do not appear to have moved a unit through Terran's land. But, again, that whole situation is very odd. The question about details on the type of troops would be interesting, but I'm pretty sure they're just coded the exact same as the Beluaterra daimons.
In fact, the appearance of the mega-horde on Beluaterra reinforces the idea that the Zuma are coded similarly: if we presume the Blight has similar wastelandish and netherworldian recruitment as the Zuma Coalition, then we can realize the extent of the Fifth Invasion. The Zuma support sometimes as much as 60-70k CS (or at least it looks that way) from their small area. We know that Overlord can field 130k... but if the Blight can recruit like the Zuma Coalition.... it could be many, many times that much.
Or maybe daimon recruitment is finite. Maybe it doesn't regenerate. We don't know that it does. Non-regenerating recruitment would fit much of the Fourth Invasion's phenomena.
But we don't know, ultimately. Those are the questions that would merit really serious discussion.
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FangFang's march north seems to me to indicate that they can recruit anywhere, as they do not appear to have moved a unit through Terran's land. But, again, that whole situation is very odd. The question about details on the type of troops would be interesting, but I'm pretty sure they're just coded the exact same as the Beluaterra daimons.
FWIW - The Zuma GM has asked that this situation be clarified:
FangFang (who has now been renamed to "Fang Fang") traveled this path: Overroot > Shoka > Inklen > Lowervia (which was still rogue at the time), and had his entire 8,000 CS force with him the entire time. Yes, he traveled through two Terran regions with 8,000 CS of daimon troops without anyone seeing him. No, this is not a special daimon ability. Apparently no one looked at those regions during the time period when the daimon troops were there.
Also, this is OOC knowledge. Since no one noticed them travel through, then no one really knows *how* they traveled through.
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Well, technically...Garret does know because from what I understand, tracking movements via the character screen is still legit IC knowledge.
No one brought it up in-game though. The first time I heard anyone say anything about Dwilight daimons flying/teleporting was on the forums.
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FWIW - The Zuma GM has asked that this situation be clarified:
FangFang (who has now been renamed to "Fang Fang") traveled this path: Overroot > Shoka > Inklen > Lowervia (which was still rogue at the time), and had his entire 8,000 CS force with him the entire time. Yes, he traveled through two Terran regions with 8,000 CS of daimon troops without anyone seeing him. No, this is not a special daimon ability. Apparently no one looked at those regions during the time period when the daimon troops were there.
Also, this is OOC knowledge. Since no one noticed them travel through, then no one really knows *how* they traveled through.
If he traveled through Vassar about 15 days ago, then my character, Tampico, saw him I think. The name sounds really familiar, and I remember I had some glitched battles against monsters where my MI has infinite range where Fang Fang was neutral. Not positive, and to far back for any reports.
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It was during Christmas. People were probably doing more important real life stuff (Btw, not sarcastic. Real life really is > BM.)
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Well the Zuma only attacked Vassar where Tampico was the Lord of. So he was back there repairing it when I think Fang Fang came. I just still thought it was part of the whole Zuma/Terran ordeal that had been going on, so I didn't think to bring it up.
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FWIW - The Zuma GM has asked that this situation be clarified:
FangFang (who has now been renamed to "Fang Fang") traveled this path: Overroot > Shoka > Inklen > Lowervia (which was still rogue at the time), and had his entire 8,000 CS force with him the entire time. Yes, he traveled through two Terran regions with 8,000 CS of daimon troops without anyone seeing him. No, this is not a special daimon ability. Apparently no one looked at those regions during the time period when the daimon troops were there.
Also, this is OOC knowledge. Since no one noticed them travel through, then no one really knows *how* they traveled through.
I just assumed that the Terrans just kept quiet about the matter.
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Slight revision to FangFang's itinerary. He actually went: Vassar (where FangFang watched Tampico fight the monsters, twice) > Shoka > Inklen (fought a battle there by itself against a monster pack) > Barrow Peaks.
ZumaGM apologizes for the prior error. MaleMaldives' post jogged their memory, prompting them to go back and check their messages. Regardless, there was no teleporting or flying of rivers, and FangFang still had his whole 8K CS daimon unit the entire time.
Surprising that no one spotted FangFang until he made it to Shuberstone.
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He was spotted in Barrowspeak by Asylon scouts and tracked northward.
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... and you didn't say anything until he reached Shuberstone?!
Face, meet Palm. Palm, this is Face.
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I was surprised no one did, since he was moving pretty obviously through Terran lands.
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Slight revision to FangFang's itinerary. He actually went: Vassar (where FangFang watched Tampico fight the monsters, twice) > Shoka > Inklen (fought a battle there by itself against a monster pack) > Barrow Peaks.
ZumaGM apologizes for the prior error. MaleMaldives' post jogged their memory, prompting them to go back and check their messages. Regardless, there was no teleporting or flying of rivers, and FangFang still had his whole 8K CS daimon unit the entire time.
Surprising that no one spotted FangFang until he made it to Shuberstone.
Very weird. A battle in Inklen?
No battle report was received by Terran; don't you usually get reports of battles fought within your land?
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Check reports from 13 days ago.
And if none exists, then apparently you don't get the report if it's a foreign force against (rogue)
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Yeah, I just checked through all of'em. No report. And I guess Tampico did get a report, but Shoka and Inklen still claim otherwise. Maybe it's because the movement wasn't from an external border or because we weren't technically at war or something.
Very curious.
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... and you didn't say anything until he reached Shuberstone?!
Face, meet Palm. Palm, this is Face.
No our scout mentioned it in elets, real life came along and itwas reported in shuber
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No battle report was received by Terran; don't you usually get reports of battles fought within your land?
You only get reports of battles that occur in a region in which one of your nobles is. If you have a noble in the region, even if that noble does not take part in the battle, even if they have no troops, then the realm gets informed of the battle. No nobles in the region? Then no battle notification. That includes regions within your own realm. Granted, this is not something that happens all that often.
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You only get reports of battles that occur in a region in which one of your nobles is. If you have a noble in the region, even if that noble does not take part in the battle, even if they have no troops, then the realm gets informed of the battle. No nobles in the region? Then no battle notification. That includes regions within your own realm. Granted, this is not something that happens all that often.
Hm; interested. I would have assumed we would get a report. Well, now I know what happens when you assume...
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The region reports may say something like "War, looting or unrest makes the peasants unhappy". But that may or may not be implemented in the new region reports. You also may or may not get the "The presence of daimons terrifies the population" message. Not sure if the daimons were stopped long enough to cause it to happen, or if there were enough daimons to make it happen.
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Here's an observation--it was only in the second battle, in the Mountains of Betrayal, that it was an 'epic battle' that we all got notified for. The first battle in Inklen did not trigger that report.
If he didn't recruit any troops along the way, then their training/cohesion must have increased sufficiently (maybe from 7990 CS to 8010 CS) for the second report to be reported as 'epic' and give them away.
Also, they must not have taken much in the way of casualties or damage in Inklen, or they can repair damage in the field.
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Didn't Annaej give away some mechanics of how monster units work?
Is there any evidence to suggest that daimon mechanics are different? (Not leading to anything here. Really just wondering what you guys think.)
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Here's an observation--it was only in the second battle, in the Mountains of Betrayal, that it was an 'epic battle' that we all got notified for. The first battle in Inklen did not trigger that report.
If he didn't recruit any troops along the way, then their training/cohesion must have increased sufficiently (maybe from 7990 CS to 8010 CS) for the second report to be reported as 'epic' and give them away.
Also, they must not have taken much in the way of casualties or damage in Inklen, or they can repair damage in the field.
It also depends on the size of the force he fought as well. If the monster group in Inklen was small enough, then the combined CS may not have been over the threshold needed for a Huge battle report.
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It also depends on the size of the force he fought as well. If the monster group in Inklen was small enough, then the combined CS may not have been over the threshold needed for a Huge battle report.
Ah, good point. forgot that battles have two sides :o