Did something change in takeover mechanics?
for ages, battles for averting takeover meant that you do not need to win the battle to disrupt takeover, putting half of enemy troops away from battlefield would frequently mean an end to takeover.
currently, we had two battles, both time just few enemy troops stayed on battlefield, but takeover is intact.
after two battles, which we both lost, out of dozen enemy troops just two are left standing, their soldier count is reduced to one third, but takeover is still proceeding.
Nope, we haven't changed anything.
Your confirmation bias is just misleading you. Again.
I bet the reason is gangbang-wars. They're evil!
the numbers do, however, affect the TO, so even if you don't win, you will slow down the TO process.
Maybe they just had a lot of extra men in the region?
Am I understanding it correctly though in assuming that if he had won the battle instead of losing it, the takeover would then have been immediately broken?
Quote from: Telrunya on September 04, 2011, 11:16:34 PM
Maybe they just had a lot of extra men in the region?
That sounds correct to me.
Illustration
They needed, say, 100 men to run the TO. They actually had 300. Attacks reduced that number to 200, which is still more than the minimum.
Quote from: Chénier on September 05, 2011, 07:05:27 AM
Am I understanding it correctly though in assuming that if he had won the battle instead of losing it, the takeover would then have been immediately broken?
I've never, ever seen a takeover continue after the takeover realm was defeated in battle. I haven't checked the code, but I'm 99% sure that's a hard fact.
Quote from: egamma on September 05, 2011, 07:05:28 AM
That sounds correct to me.
Illustration
They needed, say, 100 men to run the TO. They actually had 300. Attacks reduced that number to 200, which is still more than the minimum.
it was something like 450 was reduced to 100 in total, but only 20-30 are left on the battlefield and that i what i do not understand completely - if men retreated from battlefield still count as takeover force, than it would not always happen what bedwyr said, that defeating takeover force always stops takeover.
on the other hand, if retreated troops do not count, than it is hard to imagine that wiping most of army do not stop takeover. ok, remaining troops can still be over takeover threshold, no matter how little of them stayed, and that would be the only logical explanation.
Takeover threshold isn't necessary for continuing takeovers. Takeovers can continue with only ten men left in the region. I've seen it happen.
If the takeover force is defeated, then they no longer count as "holding the region" as the game calculates such things, and my guess is that if you lose that status the takeover ends, period. I haven't looked at the code, but I'd say that's a pretty firm guess.
After checking the code:
- The takeover type matters. A lot. Some takeover types can progress with 0 supporters (not with a high probability, but it's possible); others can't.
- Retreated, scattered, and rallied troops do not count towards those supporting a takeover.
- Having troops in the region belonging to the region's realm will oppose the takeover (reducing the chances of success), whether or not they're scattered or retreated (wounded don't count, though).
Quote from: Anaris on September 06, 2011, 09:16:13 PM
After checking the code:
- Having troops in the region belonging to the region's realm will oppose the takeover (reducing the chances of success), whether or not they're scattered or retreated (wounded don't count, though).
Really? That seems exploitable...
Until the enemy starts hunting and the rest of the troops are nowhere to be found any more after all that time ;)
Quote from: Bedwyr on September 06, 2011, 09:18:50 PM
Really? That seems exploitable...
Indeed. What if they are traveling? Could the region's realm keep their troops from arriving for an extended period of time, presumably until the main army arrives?
Quote from: Anaris on September 06, 2011, 09:16:13 PM
- The takeover type matters. A lot.
this explains much. i knew that friendly takeover is easily disrupted, and with the same logic brutal takeover is hardest to disrupt.
Quote from: Stue (DC) on September 07, 2011, 02:50:05 PM
this explains much. i knew that friendly takeover is easily disrupted, and with the same logic brutal takeover is hardest to disrupt.
Really? I was thinking that the friendly takeover--if the region really, really likes you--could continue with 0 soldiers present, while the brutal would require constant looting or at least armed forces to continue. And the hostile takeover, of course, requires lots of soldiers in region--hostile should probably be the easiest to disrupt using troops.
FTOs can even be completed without any military presence, in exceptional cases (Barca). FTOs also require only half the men to safely start, so that should be a good indication.
They are easy to disrupt, though. A single looting incident, no matter how minor, will stop it.
Quote from: Indirik on September 07, 2011, 05:34:55 PM
They are easy to disrupt, though. A single looting incident, no matter how minor, will stop it.
But battles aren't looting.
FTOs require sympathy, and looting is quite bad for sympathy anyhow.
Quote from: egamma on September 06, 2011, 11:16:31 PM
Indeed. What if they are traveling? Could the region's realm keep their troops from arriving for an extended period of time, presumably until the main army arrives?
Indeed indeed. What about traveling troops? I could totally think of ways to exploit this if travelling troops are counted.
i would say that battles cause damage which annoys peasants during friendly takeover, so even some hopeless attack can disrupt it, so that gives reasoning to logic that brutal force cannot be stopped so easily.
as regards to exploitability, i am not sure about it. if travelling troop slow takeover down, you can use delay arrival once and that would be about it.
i would use subject of the thread to pose one more question - is it a bug if the realm whom we hate can begin friendly takeover against us (seen on dwilight)?!
The type of TO that you can run safely depends on sympathy of the peasants. Apparently your peasants don't share the Hatred that much (Though perhaps the Hatred status could/should put some continuous / one-time downward pressure on said sympathy in your regions. If that isn't the case, since I don't know the exact workings on Hatred, that could be a good feature request. That should make it harder to run FTOs, though it wouldn't be impossible)
Quote from: Stue (DC) on September 07, 2011, 10:26:19 PM
i would use subject of the thread to pose one more question - is it a bug if the realm whom we hate can begin friendly takeover against us (seen on dwilight)?!
Each region has a different opinion of other realms. I would guess that this particular did not share your hatred of that realm.
Quote from: Stue (DC) on September 07, 2011, 10:26:19 PM
as regards to exploitability, i am not sure about it. if travelling troop slow takeover down, you can use delay arrival once and that would be about it.
If you are only able to delay one turn, you are doing something wrong. I've done it for days at a time with my army to great effect.
Quotei would use subject of the thread to pose one more question - is it a bug if the realm whom we hate can begin friendly takeover against us (seen on dwilight)?!
Similarly, Port Nebel has just revolted to Corsanctum again. However, last I checked, they hated that realm more than anything in the world. Well, them and a few others.
Quote from: Chénier on September 08, 2011, 12:41:34 AM
i would use subject of the thread to pose one more question - is it a bug if the realm whom we hate can begin friendly takeover against us (seen on dwilight)?!
Similarly, Port Nebel has just revolted to Corsanctum again. However, last I checked, they hated that realm more than anything in the world. Well, them and a few others.
Corsanctum did not perform a friendly takeover. We would have to be at war with them if that were the case.
Now, we could have a diplomat-ninja working for them, raising sympathy of Corsanctum...I think we've just discovered the new infiltrator! Meet the diplomat, able to fling gold-coins like throwing knives, with mind-control abilities undetectable by other nobles!
However, none of the nobles of D'Hara in-region are diplomats. Pierre von Genf, Marquis of Caiyun, Ambassador of Morek Empire, now he could be causing trouble...
Quote from: Chénier on September 08, 2011, 12:41:34 AM
If you are only able to delay one turn, you are doing something wrong. I've done it for days at a time with my army to great effect.
Similarly, Port Nebel has just revolted to Corsanctum again. However, last I checked, they hated that realm more than anything in the world. Well, them and a few others.
The new delay arrival button only works once, of course you can still use all the old delay methods, but you can't press that button two turns in a row.
Quote from: De-Legro on September 08, 2011, 02:09:23 AM
The new delay arrival button only works once, of course you can still use all the old delay methods, but you can't press that button two turns in a row.
Who cares, since you even admit yourself that you don't need to?
Quote from: Chénier on September 08, 2011, 06:16:08 AM
Who cares, since you even admit yourself that you don't need to?
Because for most realms, the button fixes issues with players that struggle with the other methods. Since we started using the new button we have had much better movement and no one arriving early, before you could almost bank on at least 1 or 2 arriving early and a few missing the battle entirely. For the more casual player the button is a real boon.
Quote from: De-Legro on September 08, 2011, 06:31:17 AM
Because for most realms, the button fixes issues with players that struggle with the other methods. Since we started using the new button we have had much better movement and no one arriving early, before you could almost bank on at least 1 or 2 arriving early and a few missing the battle entirely. For the more casual player the button is a real boon.
Doesn't change the issue about it being exploitable if traveling troops are counted. Can't break the TO force? Send in the armies, or at least just a few TO units yourself, and remain at about 2 hours from the destination. You can make the TO harder without even losing a single man.
Quote from: Chénier on September 08, 2011, 06:39:55 AM
Doesn't change the issue about it being exploitable if traveling troops are counted. Can't break the TO force? Send in the armies, or at least just a few TO units yourself, and remain at about 2 hours from the destination. You can make the TO harder without even losing a single man.
Yup, if travelling troops are counted. Of course if any realm tried such things on a island I played on, I would be drumming up mass support to teach them the truth about honourable combat :)
Quote from: Chénier on September 08, 2011, 12:41:34 AMSimilarly, Port Nebel has just revolted to Corsanctum again. However, last I checked, they hated that realm more than anything in the world. Well, them and a few others.
I think it's been quite a while since you checked.
Quote from: Indirik on September 08, 2011, 03:18:04 PM
I think it's been quite a while since you checked.
I was there not that long ago, after the last time it revolted, but I wasn't specifically looking for sympathy to Corsanctum. I might have overlooked it though.