Title: Grant Dukes the ability to give away a region to a neighboring duchy
Summary: Dukes should be able to switch the alliance of empty regions to that of a neighboring duchy
Details: This would be similar to the current ability of rulers to give away a region to a neighboring realm, but would instead work between two duchies in the same realm. (Or, maybe ANY neighboring duchy?) This should only be possible for regions without a lord (and possibly without knights?)
Benefits: This would enable a duke to curry favor with another duke, improve the income of an impoverished duchy, etc. Also removes the need for someone to be appointed for the express purpose of assigning a region to a different duchy, if it is desirable to leave the region with no lord or knights.
Possible Exploits: Unknown, I will edit request as those are brought up.
How can the duke give away land that isn't his? The king owns all the land, doesn't he?
Also, why would we want to encourage leaving a region without a lord/knights?
Quote from: LilWolf on May 23, 2012, 09:52:09 PM
How can the duke give away land that isn't his? The king owns all the land, doesn't he?
Also, why would we want to encourage leaving a region without a lord/knights?
Giving the region to a duchy of a different realm would be treason, but not to a duchy of the same one. Sounds like a good request to me.
I guess it would be the same as switching allegiance, however it would Dukes even more power than they already have being able to control what region is aligned to what Duchy is some pretty powerful stuff, eh?
Quote from: T Strike on May 23, 2012, 11:06:25 PM
I guess it would be the same as switching allegiance, however it would Dukes even more power than they already have being able to control what region is aligned to what Duchy is some pretty powerful stuff, eh?
Only with Lordless regions.
Quote from: JPierreD on May 23, 2012, 10:36:25 PM
Giving the region to a duchy of a different realm would be treason, but not to a duchy of the same one. Sounds like a good request to me.
I still don't see
why. If you want a region to be in another duchy then the region lord should make that decision. If you don't have a region lord for the region then you deserve to be inconvenienced. It should never be desirable to leave a region without a region lord. Any problems a lordless region poses are well deserved.
Quote from: LilWolf on May 23, 2012, 11:42:24 PM
I still don't see why. If you want a region to be in another duchy then the region lord should make that decision.
Does it matter why Duke A might want to give the region to Duke B? As long as Duke B wants it, what is the problem?
Quote from: LilWolf on May 23, 2012, 11:42:24 PM
If you don't have a region lord for the region then you deserve to be inconvenienced.
Inconvenienced how?
Quote from: LilWolf on May 23, 2012, 11:42:24 PM
It should never be desirable to leave a region without a region lord. Any problems a lordless region poses are well deserved.
I don't see how changing the duchy of a region will solve the lack of knights problem of a realm, or diminish the problems the lordless state gives.
Quote from: JPierreD on May 23, 2012, 11:49:08 PM
I don't see how changing the duchy of a region will solve the lack of knights problem of a realm, or diminish the problems the lordless state gives.
Simple, it doesn't, knights don't just randomly appear out of nowhere at the push of a button that assigns you to some random duchy, or do they?
Dukes giving a region away only makes sense if duchy borders are controlled by rulers. But even then, why would a duke want to decrease his/her power?
Yeah, I want all Dukes to die in power!!!
Reason why: To heal my shame for not being a Duke
Quote from: Charles on May 24, 2012, 03:39:12 AMBut even then, why would a duke want to decrease his/her power?
Bribe?
Settle a dispute?
Although, this would make more sense if we had duchy warfare. To which I am 100% opposed.
You can think of it as taking the "resize estate" option (and kick knight, and delete estate) that a lord has, and moving it up to the duchy level. Or, you can think of it as moving the ruler's "give away region" option down a level.
It's kinda strange that only Dukes can't manipulate objects a level beneath them, when you think about it.
Quote from: LilWolf on May 23, 2012, 11:42:24 PM
I still don't see why. If you want a region to be in another duchy then the region lord should make that decision. If you don't have a region lord for the region then you deserve to be inconvenienced. It should never be desirable to leave a region without a region lord. Any problems a lordless region poses are well deserved.
A twist you could try with this scenario, if you want to penalise un-ruled regions is to have them become "Imperial", or something similar after a few days.
This could be a hidden Duchy under the ruler, and only he could then assign a lord.
If you want to go further, you could stop or decrease the income going out of the region to higher levels.
Another twist would be to have the .state holder with the longer stay in the region assigned as region lord by popular demand after a few days.
Both these scenarios maintain that only the region lord can change the region allegiance to another Duchy.
In general though, I believe that if a Duke can change the duchy alignment of his regions, he should be able to so for
ALL, and not only for these without Lords. He either has this power, or he doesn't.
an empty region in a duchy is effectively under a duke's direct rule.. so under that line of thinking, he can dump it on someone else.
he gets the taxes even if he can't do jack like courts/building/food there... actually food would be his biggest issue (most likely there'll be a mountain rotting away and he can't touch it. which is perfectly ok, if he wants to run empty regions)
if there's a lord there, then the lord gets to decide, not the duke. by extension, a ruler shouldn't be able to shift a region to another realm. not his to shift.
Quote from: fodder on May 24, 2012, 08:39:47 AM
he gets the taxes even if he can't do jack like courts/building/food there... actually food would be his biggest issue (most likely there'll be a mountain rotting away and he can't touch it. which is perfectly ok, if he wants to run empty regions)
Regarding taxes, I disagree, because the new system is a bottom up approach.
If the knights have no-one to give the taxes to, they would keep them for themselves. If any made it up the chain, it would be a fraction of what would make it actually, since the chain is broken and there is no control.
Quote from: megs on May 24, 2012, 09:16:37 AM
Regarding taxes, I disagree, because the new system is a bottom up approach.
If the knights have no-one to give the taxes to, they would keep them for themselves. If any made it up the chain, it would be a fraction of what would make it actually, since the chain is broken and there is no control.
Actually, taxes are imposed from the top down. Rulers tax dukes; dukes tax lords; lords tax regions and knights.
This feature request would only let a duke transfer control of a region that did not have any knights.
Quote from: egamma on May 24, 2012, 02:33:52 PM
Actually, taxes are imposed from the top down. Rulers tax dukes; dukes tax lords; lords tax regions and knights.
The answer to this is yes and no.
There is of course a hierarchy, but there are also 3 distinct tax structures.
If there is 0 tax collected on the base, there is nothing to collect higher up.
And the bottom grunt (Region lord) has total control of how much tax he will collect.
A lord taxing the min 5%, without an estate would produce in a wealthy region essentially no revenue for the crown, and very little for the Duke.
wait... if there's no lord, there's still a lord's share that goes somewhere, doesn't it? (ie.. a knight will not get the lord's cut) a duke takes his cut off that, no? it's just the bits that the lord keeps for himself that'll vanish? (does tax rate drop to 10% or default or something low?)
have to say.. i think i haven't seen an actual example.
Quote from: egamma on May 24, 2012, 02:33:52 PM
Actually, taxes are imposed from the top down. Rulers tax dukes; dukes tax lords; lords tax regions and knights.
From the New Estate System page on the Wiki:
QuoteAt the same time, this system reverses the tax flow. Taxes are now collected at the bottom of the hierarchy and some parts of it "trickle up", not the other way around.
Velax, both of your quotes are true. This is why I say yes and no at the same time.
Taxes are imposed from someone above you, but are collected bottom up, and some of it reaches the top.
Quote from: fodder on May 24, 2012, 03:33:58 PM
wait... if there's no lord, there's still a lord's share that goes somewhere, doesn't it? (ie.. a knight will not get the lord's cut) a duke takes his cut off that, no? it's just the bits that the lord keeps for himself that'll vanish? (does tax rate drop to 10% or default or something low?)
have to say.. i think i haven't seen an actual example.
I will let you know next tax day most propably, as we have a lordless region right now.
Needs more discussion in Development.
Quote from: Foundation on May 24, 2012, 04:50:33 PM
Needs more discussion in Development.
Can you move the thread please?
Quote from: egamma on May 24, 2012, 06:11:44 PM
Can you move the thread please?
Done. I think it deserves a fuller discussion than possible in Feature Requests. :)