Pierre was my second character, after a first one in Atamara. Morek was dirt poor back then, and it was impossible to get by with the 2-3 gold per week my Ashrak estate gave. Once my starting unit was killed I had no gold, no troops, and not even enough honour to become a courtier. Allison was Duchess then and she handed me gold, but not in a haughty "I'm rich, you're not, now go fight my battles" way I have seen elsewhere. She took the time to know what my character wanted, and helped him achieve it. Sure, she would call back later on to ask for favors when she needed them, but she truly cared in the first place. On an IC level my character always kept a soft spot for her because of that, even when she descended into madness he remembered he would be nothing without her. On an OOC level I knew getting an interaction with Allison may be the best thing to happen to anyone who may find themselves a bit bored by the game, as she would lead them into the inner circles of power quicker than anywhere else.
This is the end of an era for Dwilight. It's quite sad, really.
Then again, for some reason, I can't get this song out of my head:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHQLQ1Rc_Js
Quote from: vonGenf on April 11, 2013, 05:14:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHQLQ1Rc_Js
I lol'ed.
I'm looking forward to watching her descendants in action.
Allison is dead, huh? Wow.
How did it happen?
Quote from: Geronus on April 11, 2013, 07:12:53 PM
Allison is dead, huh? Wow.
How did it happen?
Answers vary. Farronites seem to be insisting they did her in out of their piety and respect of the church, but the truth is likely that they worked out some sort of deal with Allison, to increase their foothold in the church.
Quote from: Lefanis on April 11, 2013, 07:27:36 PM
Answers vary. Farronites seem to be insisting they did her in out of their piety and respect of the church, but the truth is likely that they worked out some sort of deal with Allison, to increase their foothold in the church.
And they didn't torture her.
Losers.
Quote from: Lefanis on April 11, 2013, 07:27:36 PM
Answers vary. Farronites seem to be insisting they did her in out of their piety and respect of the church, but the truth is likely that they worked out some sort of deal with Allison, to increase their foothold in the church.
Er, what? They made a deal
with Allison to
kill Allison? What, uh, what exactly did Allison get out of it, other than shafted?
Quote from: Geronus on April 11, 2013, 08:03:12 PM
Er, what? They made a deal with Allison to kill Allison? What, uh, what exactly did Allison get out of it, other than shafted?
I don't know. I can speculate, but wouldn't want to on the forums. ;D there is certainly more than meets the eye.
Quote from: Geronus on April 11, 2013, 08:03:12 PM
Er, what? They made a deal with Allison to kill Allison? What, uh, what exactly did Allison get out of it, other than shafted?
Maybe Zombie Allison will get the tastiest brains?
Or maybe Mordaunt is grasping at straws because he doesn't like the Farronites?
It's 50-50, really.
Even in death Allison is up to something. She went down with out a fight. Is that really like Allison?
It honestly sucks that Allison is dead as she brought about a lot of fun, though at least Alaster from FEI has came right away. (Not to mention my deal is kind of over now with her being dead and all.) Btw, I couldn't stop feeling like you just called basically all the people of Dwilight Munchkins.
now, what is Arya gonna do with the almost 2000 gold bounty? Does she collect it from an execution?
Quote from: Penchant on April 11, 2013, 08:24:54 PM
Btw, I couldn't stop feeling like you just called basically all the people of Dwilight Munchkins.
Not my meaning! But, hey, now I wonder who fits the bill for the Lollipop guild.....
Yeah i'm going to miss Allison too. She helped me out way back when in Xinhai. Helped me start out as trader. Then actually bought nimhs food for gold instead ofjust demanding I send it via cart.
As for why this came about you won't get that from me in ooc. ;)
I know I did good stuff with Allison, but I don't remember the instances that vonGenf and cenrae talked about. I'm surprised you remember that stuff from way back when.
My favorite was when Allison was kidnapped by pirates! :P
Allison changed a boring character for me into my favorite character to play when I followed her through her antics.
Quote from: Indirik on April 11, 2013, 09:38:59 PM
My favorite was when Allison was kidnapped by pirates! :P
Ugh, that was the /worst/ thing I did with Allison
Yeah, it wasn't really the best thing she ever did. Baiting Caerwyn into prematurely attacking Astrum, leading to the utter destruction of Caerwyn, was probably the best thing Allison ever did.
I had a lot of fun with that one. Leading the armies to destroy Caerwyn, gloating to Caerwyn and then taking their lands...
(OOC: Roleplay from Dwilight)
In the wilds of Luria a young knight received the news of the death of his former step mom. Instead of a somber response, Proslyn Silverfire turned almost immediately to his fellow nobles with a cheer and a shout. "Allison, the Harlot of Dwilight, is dead! Drink with me on this grand occasion. "
Elsewhere on Dwilight...
A thin figure overlooked a large city from the bluffs rising near the sea. As he watched the procession he could only think back to times of old. The Serpent of Luria had lain with the Spider of SA for power but stayed for love. Yet, it was for power that he broke the Spider's web and cast her into the sea. Just as he had been the beginning of the end for so many realms, so too had he destroyed one whom he came to love.
With one last look at the city where The Serpent had truly become a changed man, and with tears streaming down his face the man spoke: "Farewell, my Love. May the Bloodstars watch over you and may the soul of Maddening engulf me in your stead. Perhaps by my journey's end I'll truly be able to take your place as second Prophet of the Bloodstars."
And with that the manifestation of Austere turned his back on the city. Maddening would soon join him and now had only to find Auspicious before making his return....
Quote from: Indirik on April 11, 2013, 09:54:36 PM
Yeah, it wasn't really the best thing she ever did. Baiting Caerwyn into prematurely attacking Astrum, leading to the utter destruction of Caerwyn, was probably the best thing Allison ever did.
This. I still think it isn't well known that the war between Caerwyn and Astrum was a set-up by Allison.
Then there was the impulse actions....taking aegir duchy out of morek. That hit my with surprise. And folding Kabrinskia....ugh that was the worst for me.
Quote from: cenrae on April 11, 2013, 11:40:40 PM
And folding Kabrinskia....ugh that was the worst for me.
You should have sided against her and stopped that one...
Then there was the time I was pretty drunk at a party. It kinda wound down and I was out by the bonfire with my friend Kade. I was telling him about BM and what was going on. Through that night I was able to send several messages to Brom within a short time. Thats how I got the Zuma item and they made the Sceptre of the Maddening Star for Allison in trade.
Only downside is that it cost me 25% of Golden Farrow, Judge of Kabrinskia and marriage to Brom. I think if I would have been sober I would have drove a slightly harder bargain.
Quote from: dustole on April 12, 2013, 12:03:12 AM
Then there was the time I was pretty drunk at a party. It kinda wound down and I was out by the bonfire with my friend Kade. I was telling him about BM and what was going on. Through that night I was able to send several messages to Brom within a short time. Thats how I got the Zuma item and they made the Sceptre of the Maddening Star for Allison in trade.
Only downside is that it cost me 25% of Golden Farrow, Judge of Kabrinskia and marriage to Brom. I think if I would have been sober I would have drove a slightly harder bargain.
Best deal in BM ever.
At least you were (not) drunk enough to have given Brom his first demand of Lord of Golden Farrow. (instead of just 25%)
Quote from: dustole on April 11, 2013, 09:31:41 PM
I know I did good stuff with Allison, but I don't remember the instances that vonGenf and cenrae talked about. I'm surprised you remember that stuff from way back when.
Simpler things like this are great for player retention. It was simply/insignificant enough for you that you don't even remember it but it greatly impacted the characters and players.
Finally, the vile heathen is brought to justice!
You opportunist convert.
Not to rain on the parade here, but my only interaction with Allison was disappointing.
After knowing all of the hype around her and stuff, once she showed up in Terran it was pretty exciting.
Except that she just ended up being this really not very fun noble who refused to write letters like letters and the player OOC told the whole realm that they did not think they had to use ANY titles or formalities on the SMA continent and was getting OOC upset when our Nobles were getting upset about Allison not doing so.
Myself and a few others really wanted an OOC ban on her for it.
THat's because Terran went into psychotic mode and everyone started flaming her like wild jackals.
Other realms didn't care about her taking shortcuts due to typing on a mobile device, only Terran did.
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on April 11, 2013, 11:57:31 PM
You should have sided against her and stopped that one...
I couldn't I was leaving Alaska to go hunting with no known internet via phone at that time. Also I made a point way back in Xinhai that Khari would value loyalty above all. She viewed loyalty to Allison and the rest is history.
Quote from: Kwanstein on April 12, 2013, 01:24:31 AM
THat's because Terran went into psychotic mode and everyone started flaming her like wild jackals.
Other realms didn't care about her taking shortcuts due to typing on a mobile device, only Terran did.
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3tv06u/
She DID plot against us like forever...
Quote from: Perth on April 12, 2013, 01:33:03 AM
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3tv06u/
Other people skip the titles occasionally, and they are not jumped upon. So it was just random flamefest mode that occasionally went on in Terran.
Quote from: Kwanstein on April 12, 2013, 02:25:17 AM
Other people skip the titles occasionally, and they are not jumped upon. So it was just random flamefest mode that occasionally went on in Terran.
Not really, no. It was a reoccurring thing with her, and the player was asked politely to use them and then refused and became upset that we would request that.
Well Aurvandil is happy. That is all.
My only interaction with Allison was her trying to get me to vote a certain way for consul election and karibash said "what in the world could you offer me" and she never responded.
Never really understood how Allison convinced so many nobles to do so many things.
Quote from: BarticaBoat on April 12, 2013, 03:17:24 AM
Never really understood how Allison convinced so many nobles to do so many things.
Same way Brom did. Time, Effort, and a 'Forceful' personality.
Edit: I forgot good looks.
Quote from: vonGenf on April 11, 2013, 08:07:00 PM
Or maybe Mordaunt is grasping at straws because he doesn't like the Farronites?
He doesn't like them or dislike them per se, but perceives them as opportunists who care more about political clout than the church itself.
Quote from: Dante Silverfire on April 12, 2013, 03:20:53 AM
Same way Brom did. Time, Effort, and a 'Forceful' personality.
Edit: I forgot good looks.
Its not like she never bribed people either though.
Quote from: Penchant on April 12, 2013, 04:48:09 AM
Its not like she never bribed people either though.
What do you think forceful meant?
Allison has always been a polarizing figure. You either loved her or hated her. Eventually both, more often than not.
I always enjoyed having Allison around. She was an exceptionally useful lightning rod. Difficult or impossible to control, yes, but it was possible to channel her efforts to an extent, and she would always end up taking all or most of the heat for anything controversial. Rowan was able to get a lot of dirty deeds done just by letting Allison be Allison and keeping everyone else out of her way when she was after something that furthered his interests. Allison would do all the dirty work and get all the accolades (and infamy) for it, and Rowan got to keep the high ground.
There are very few people who probably had any idea of just how ruthlessly pragmatic Rowan Geronus really was at times. I look back at what I did with him and suspect that his impact on Dwilight is probably under-appreciated.
Quote from: Geronus on April 12, 2013, 05:32:49 AM
Allison has always been a polarizing figure. You either loved her or hated her. Eventually both, more often than not.
I always enjoyed having Allison around. She was an exceptionally useful lightning rod. Difficult or impossible to control, yes, but it was possible to channel her efforts to an extent, and she would always end up taking all or most of the heat for anything controversial. Rowan was able to get a lot of dirty deeds done just by letting Allison be Allison and keeping everyone else out of her way when she was after something that furthered his interests. Allison would do all the dirty work and get all the accolades (and infamy) for it, and Rowan got to keep the high ground.
There are very few people who probably had any idea of just how ruthlessly pragmatic Rowan Geronus really was at times. I look back at what I did with him and suspect that his impact on Dwilight is probably under-appreciated.
How someone else's eulogy can be about
you!
Quote from: Barek (jerm) on April 12, 2013, 05:47:25 AM
How someone else's eulogy can be about you!
Yeah, that was just great.
Allison was given credit or blame for many things over the years that she had nothing to do with or even had no idea what people were talking about. She took credit for stuff she didn't do simply because it made her seem bigger than she was.
She was the one who started calling people "Brother" or "Sister" in SA. that kinda stuck. Also, she got SA to be founded in Caiyun instead of Zhongyuan. Mathurin was Lord of the rural region and was about to found SA and she made sure it had a good founding. That gold is part of what gave the church a leg up in the beginning.
There was a rebel way back in the day in Morek. I wish I could remember his name... Well, alleged rebel. She was judge of Morek and was in the underground to keep an eye out for traitors. I had it narrowed down to who I /thought/ was in the underground. I asked them to place their unit as militia and then come to Donghaiwei and I would give them more gold to recruit a better unit. When they got there I had an infil attack them and then banned them. By the time they recovered from their wounds the ban had gone into effect and they were arrested in Donghai trying to flee the realm. She executed them a couple days later.
I did some ruthless stuff and I wish I could remember it all. There are lots of good stories associated with Allison.
That is just.... +1. Upvote. A++++++++++ would buy again.
Bravo.
I can only agree. Allison pulled me to Kabrinskia as a Trader and quickly rewarded my character. She didn't always tell what she was exactly up to, but it tended to end well in my character's eyes, which created an immense loyalty and trust to Allison. I'm sad to see her go. Adam would have never been like this if it wasn't for Allison.
I have still yet to figure out if Gustav knew how he truly felt regarding Allison. At one point I was signing his letters as the "Wolf of Kabrinski". Then later, after the Kabrinskia ordeal where he barely managed to keep Golden Farrow from starving, he began to have a deep sense of betrayal.
Allison was one of the main reasons why SA has been so much fun over the years, and though Constantine ended up hating her, I have to say as a player that Allison was one of my favorite characters in Dwilight.
Quote from: dustole on April 12, 2013, 06:18:29 AM
I did some ruthless stuff and I wish I could remember it all. There are lots of good stories associated with Allison.
Some of my favorites:
1. Getting herself elected as Averoth's first ruler just so she could attempt to sabotage the realm.
2. Auto da Fe-ing Aram Stein.
3. Drilling a hole in her head to let in the light of the Maddening.
There were other good moments too, many of them already mentioned.
QuoteShe was the one who started calling people "Brother" or "Sister" in SA. that kinda stuck.
Ugh! She deserved to die for that alone!
Now, if I could only kill someone for the whole damned milking stool crap... >:(
Quote from: Indirik on April 12, 2013, 03:07:16 PM
Ugh! She deserved to die for that alone!
Now, if I could only kill someone for the whole damned milking stool crap... >:(
Hmmm...
I should have Hireshmont give a sermon about the milking stool....
You sadistic bastard...
QuoteTHat's because Terran went into psychotic mode and everyone started flaming her like wild jackals.
This is made-up, as is most everything you have to say about Terran. I don't even know who you are but I sure am glad I don't play with you anymore.
She had zero impact on the place because she never played. She joined the realm but she refused categorically (not occasionally) to do stuff that two-day old characters could do. She had a total disregard for in-character hierarchy, which was not unusual but she didn't even bother to hide it (which was), and she went around calling everybody by their first name all the time. Plenty of people squeak by on phones and cut corners from time to time. When they meet the minimum standard the rest of the time, I at least don't even notice when it's absent because I can tell the intention is there.
None of that is mutually exclusive with being a good or reliable BM player or mentor on how to get ahead in the game. I never 'got' Allison, though, not as a villain or as anything else. It was a player who knew the ropes who tried to get ahead. But the player was not playing the same BM I play, and certainly not anything like a 'serious medieval' version, but then that's been a joke for a while now.
In other words, all those guides and how-tos not just for SMA but for basic BM conduct? She was a poster child for the 'don't' column, but obviously the player is good at BM and reliable so her characters get a pass on all this because reliable players are a much more valuable commodity today than they used to be.
There are plenty of players who don't really go into a lot of medieval fluff. Every Indirik character I've ever seen comes to mind. They're all business and they're not about to get hung up on social details. That's fine. But that is quite a bit more effort than any Kabrinski I've ever seen.
Quote from: Indirik on April 12, 2013, 10:10:00 PM
You sadistic bastard...
I'm gonna milk this for all it's worth.
Quote from: Scarlett on April 12, 2013, 10:42:21 PM
This is made-up, as is most everything you have to say about Terran. I don't even know who you are but I sure am glad I don't play with you anymore.
She had zero impact on the place because she never played. She joined the realm but she refused categorically (not occasionally) to do stuff that two-day old characters could do. She had a total disregard for in-character hierarchy, which was not unusual but she didn't even bother to hide it (which was), and she went around calling everybody by their first name all the time. Plenty of people squeak by on phones and cut corners from time to time. When they meet the minimum standard the rest of the time, I at least don't even notice when it's absent because I can tell the intention is there.
None of that is mutually exclusive with being a good or reliable BM player or mentor on how to get ahead in the game. I never 'got' Allison, though, not as a villain or as anything else. It was a player who knew the ropes who tried to get ahead. But the player was not playing the same BM I play, and certainly not anything like a 'serious medieval' version, but then that's been a joke for a while now.
In other words, all those guides and how-tos not just for SMA but for basic BM conduct? She was a poster child for the 'don't' column, but obviously the player is good at BM and reliable so her characters get a pass on all this because reliable players are a much more valuable commodity today than they used to be.
There are plenty of players who don't really go into a lot of medieval fluff. Every Indirik character I've ever seen comes to mind. They're all business and they're not about to get hung up on social details. That's fine. But that is quite a bit more effort than any Kabrinski I've ever seen.
I suspect your expectations of Allison were a bit unrealistic from the get-go.
Quote from: Geronus on April 13, 2013, 12:39:18 AM
I suspect your expectations of Allison were a bit unrealistic from the get-go.
This.
For the short time I played with Allison, I enjoyed it. I got some valuable information describing Aurvandil's plans, thanks to her.
Scarlett, I read through Roleplaying Guidelines and SMA, which Allison adheres to the best that I know. The only issue was titles/forms of address which even has stated with it,
QuoteThe most important part about this, however, is to create and sustain the proper atmosphere, not to be fanatic about names or titles.
By the way when I checker the RP primer, it also stated:
QuoteMistakes and slips of the tongue were commonplace and often overlooked.
So instead of being an ass over titles you could complement Allison on being the most medieval noble in BM there is (or at least that I know of).
QuoteSo instead of being an ass over titles you could complement Allison on being the most medieval noble in BM there is
'Medieval' doesn't mean 'helped me out that one time.' I don't even care about being the 'most medieval' and the bar to satisfy anybody I play with has never been very high. There's no two ways about 'I don't care about this title stuff, it's not important,' though.
Mistakes and slips of the tongue were commonplace. Purposeful disregard of station was not.
QuoteI suspect your expectations of Allison were a bit unrealistic from the get-go.
My expectations for BM RP have been in the toilet since 2007 when most of the RPers left. This thread is a perfect example of why. Just like most of the threads on the Dwilight board.
This isn't a case of 'poor player doesn't meet some jerk's high expectations,' by the way. I have seen a lot of what Allison has done and the player is clearly dedicated and intelligent. This is not about lack of ability. It's lack of giving a !@#$, which is not compatible with the label 'serious.'
Players are the most scarce resource in BM, especially on Dwilight. Someone with organizational ability and knowledge of BM, both of which Allison's player has, is invaluable from a gameplay point of view. You (Penchant) and others are so caught up in winning that you don't care about what used to bring people to BM: not where you're going but how you get there.
So sure, I'm an ass about titles. Labels and words are important, and what Dwilight says it is and what it actually is are largely unrelated. Not even talking about the Zuma here. I don't even know why there is still a 'report an SMA violation' button.
Quotewhen I checker the RP primer
I have a pretty good idea about what it says. I wrote it.
Quote from: Scarlett on April 13, 2013, 02:14:23 AM
I have a pretty good idea about what it says. I wrote it.
Well played, sir, well played.
Well I am not going to quote your entire thing, but thats what I am replying to. As to Allison, beyond titles, I have no idea what you are bitching about as Allison seems to fit to every other category where most do not go beyond a few. As for the titles, it is my understanding that dustole was basically only or primarily using his phone during the time he was in Terran so its a case of it being a bit of pain to do any typing so whats really not needed, is left out when you need to send several messages to people. As to what Von Genf said, it was not about using titles but the fact the you are all like Allison sucks and is not at all like people make her sound when she isn't a god, just somebody doing plenty of intrigue and such which means private conversations you don't become a part of unless there is a reason.
To you accusing me and "others" as being too caught up in winning, I vastly disagree. I play all my characters with roleplays defining how the character will act in general and I specifically go out of the way to not offer advice on things I know about because I don't want my characters to all feel like they are the same. The only character of mine that really cares about his realm is on AT, of which I am very apathetic on the forum board. I don't play BM to somehow win. To accent my point, while doing the alpha test I refuse to make characters to aid my existing characters even though basically everyone else does, which greatly pisses me off and is a reason I likely won't play the game when it is finished. (The other players seem to only play to win instead of actually roleplaying/caring about there characters in the least.)
Lastly, thank you for your contribution to the game by making the RP Primer, which is very well made/organized.
Yeah, I don't buy the phone thing. I do almost all my playing, and forum posting, from my phone. It's not hard to toss a title or two in every now and then.
I could never figure out whether you were supposed to call people by their first or family names for a while but everyone I ran into used first names. There's no Lord Donghaiwei or whatever, just Lord Bob. If Terran has a completely different way of doing things compared to pretty much every other realm in the game then that's cool, and might explain my dude's lack of success in palling around with Kale Perth, but you have to understand that pretty much everywhere else is a lot more laid back about it, and someone who has been in the game a long time will have more difficulty adapting to that while somebody who is brand new you can mold and shape.
Quote from: Indirik on April 13, 2013, 02:50:26 AM
Yeah, I don't buy the phone thing. I do almost all my playing, and forum posting, from my phone. It's not hard to toss a title or two in every now and then.
Ok well thats rather true I suppose. Nonetheless no need to hate the character OOC just because of a lack of titles. Plenty more annoying stuff, like Tarajist, who I think I might try and get banned. What grounds other than being the most annoying/idiotic !@#$ ever I can't say I know yet/ they need to be thought of. But pretty much all the leaders of D'hara hate him so it can't be too hard to get him banned.
Allison was a good friend and a great enemy.
QuoteNonetheless no need to hate the character OOC just because of a lack of titles
I don't hate the player at all. The player is clearly pretty smart.
During the brief time Allison was in Terran, her one and only explanation when she was called on not using titles ICly was that she used her phone. If it had been 'just for now' or 'I usually have more time' or really any statement other than 'I don't care' I doubt anybody would have held it against her.
Even so, it's not like she was marginalized on that account. She didn't try to make many inroads in Terran, and that may well have been for unrelated strategic reasons in that she'd made several enemies there by the time she arrived. My character wasn't one of them though.
QuoteI play all my characters with roleplays defining how the character will act in general and I specifically go out of the way to not offer advice on things I know about because I don't want my characters to all feel like they are the same
That's very good, and hard to do.
BM is all amateurs (in the non-pejorative sense - I include myself here as I am an armchair medievalist but not credentialed in it). All of the guides and mentoring that's done should and usually does keep that in mind. I am a little bit bitter because I learned a lot when I first came here. There were lots of very creative people. Some were good writers, some knew their history, some were both of those things. It's been the case for a while now that that's more the exception than the rule, but that is absolutely not Allison's fault so I apologize for hijacking the thread. It's just a reminder of it, for me anyway, to see a character so disinterested in what made BM great for me held up as an example of what makes it great now.
Maybe she is. I'm in the minority these days anyway.
Quote from: Marlboro on April 13, 2013, 02:53:40 AM
I could never figure out whether you were supposed to call people by their first or family names for a while but everyone I ran into used first names. There's no Lord Donghaiwei or whatever, just Lord Bob. If Terran has a completely different way of doing things compared to pretty much every other realm in the game then that's cool, and might explain my dude's lack of success in palling around with Kale Perth, but you have to understand that pretty much everywhere else is a lot more laid back about it, and someone who has been in the game a long time will have more difficulty adapting to that while somebody who is brand new you can mold and shape.
She was refusing to even use the title "Lord" or even family names.
She was just calling people by first names, politely asked in private to use titles, refused to do so ICly, was asked in public, refused ICly, got angry responses in public, and, as I recall, then gave IC reasons, and also the OOC phone playing reason.
Let's be honest though: many nobles of Terran really hated Allison. All they needed was an excuse.
Quote from: Indirik on April 13, 2013, 02:50:26 AM
Yeah, I don't buy the phone thing. I do almost all my playing, and forum posting, from my phone. It's not hard to toss a title or two in every now and then.
I don't usually use my phone, but when I do, I don't skip titles in formal address. In private letters, to avoid using a familiar tone of "Hey Bob" instead of "Lord Bob", I just write the message without mentioning the guy's name at all, therefore removing the need for using his title in most cases.
Quote from: Marlboro on April 13, 2013, 02:53:40 AM
I could never figure out whether you were supposed to call people by their first or family names for a while but everyone I ran into used first names. There's no Lord Donghaiwei or whatever, just Lord Bob. If Terran has a completely different way of doing things compared to pretty much every other realm in the game then that's cool, and might explain my dude's lack of success in palling around with Kale Perth, but you have to understand that pretty much everywhere else is a lot more laid back about it, and someone who has been in the game a long time will have more difficulty adapting to that while somebody who is brand new you can mold and shape.
Family names are a relatively recent thing. In the early middle ages, they just didn't exist as we know them today, and use them in IG. "Lord Paisland" works, but it's just awkward to say. "Lord Chénier" works, but it's kinda anachronistic. "Lord Machiavel" is what I most commonly see, and what seems most fitting. I don't think anyone expects everyone to write the such of "Machiavel Chénier, Knight of the Temple and Priest of Sanguis Astroism, Margrave of Paisland, Duke of Paisly, Ambassador and Dragon King of D'Hara" in every single reference to the character in letters.
My understanding is not that Allison was scorned for saying "Lord Bob" instead of "Lord Bobtown", but rather for saying "Bob" instead of "Lord Bob". A disrespect that would not have been tolerated in D'Hara either, because this isn't some brat who doesn't know any better, it's a scornful enemy that intentionally choses to forego common courtesy.
The part I remember was when I responded to a letter to the realm and included no name or titles. Then I had all these people harping on me.
Come on, people, this is a eulogy thread. I don't know about you, but I don't go along to a funeral and give a eulogy about how the dead guy was a dick to me one time at work or how I hated the way he spoke.
You might not, but it seems to me there are plenty of people who would do just that.
Quote from: Scarlett on April 13, 2013, 02:14:23 AM
This isn't a case of 'poor player doesn't meet some jerk's high expectations,' by the way. I have seen a lot of what Allison has done and the player is clearly dedicated and intelligent. This is not about lack of ability. It's lack of giving a !@#$, which is not compatible with the label 'serious.'
dustole was, when I had cause to interact with him regularly, online for a large chunk of any given day. Allison herself was a prolific message sender and micro-manager who spent huge amounts of time and effort on furthering her plots and intrigues. This is not about a player not giving a !@#$. This is about a player not giving a !@#$ about the things that
you give a !@#$ about, so yeah, I kind of think it is about not meeting your expectations. Which, if your lamentations are to be believed, are basically out of sync with a large part of the current player base anyway.
BM characters are not analogues for real people any more than an Internet forum is an analogue for a funeral. What a sanctimonious thing to say.
I'm being the sanctimonious one in this thread?
I honestly don't know how people even forget to use a title anymore. Coming up on my fifth anniversary of joining this game, writing "Lord" or "Duke" or "King" or "Lady" or "Sir" in front of the person's name at the beginning of the letter is basically just reflex now.
Also, there are a number of people who address Kale very informally, especially in private. "My friend" is a common address from those who are, well, Kale's friend. That's fine by him.
If the ruler of a foreign realm writes Kale a letter in their first correspondence and says "hey kale" yeah, he is going to be put off by it. It's just disrespectful. It's the BM equivalent of not shaking his hand when you meet him.
Look, I am sorry for singling out Allison because Allison is just a convenient example. She made it easy because she's the only person to openly admit to being fine about what a lot of other people are tacitly fine with. And Geronus is right, when it comes to this stuff I am pretty close to an endangered species these days. But none of this comes from my own personal desire to have the game be a certain way, though obviously I have one. it comes from how the game once was, and more importantly, how everybody said they wanted it to be for Dwilight. I'm excluding here my beefs with SMA and things like the Zuma because they're not relevant to this point.
Titles are also a good example because they're the very first thing on the 'do' list on the Dwilight wiki page. Why is that? Rewind to 2006.
Similar discussions were had then, some around the FEI, which had lost its designation as the 'RP Island' well before even then. And when I say we had a lot of RPers, I don't mean that the only thing we're missing now is people who would log in and write paragraphs of text about whatever they did that day (though some did). These were people who could take a black screen with white text on it and convey a real feeling of place and time. It wasn't one thing they did; it was a thousand little things, and collectively it made BM special for a lot of people, most of whom clearly aren't around anymore to talk about it.
One key factor was that you weren't guaranteed a lordship like you are today. You could spend 6, 8, 10 months in a realm and be active and eventually be made lord. Duke could take quite a lot longer. This has more to do with arithmetic than player attitudes: when you had to work hard to get a title, you instinctively valued it more and you paid attention to what the people who had titles said and did. When the player count dropped and it became significantly easier to get not just a lordship but even a duchy or a kingdom, of course the value of a title went down: the cost of acquiring one had gone down. You would never have had a character like Allison drift between a half-dozen realms and be able to get ahead without making an investment in a particular realm's hierarchy -- that is to say, without hobnobbing around the people who had titles and 'playing the game.' This didn't take a whole lot of extra effort, particularly when you already had someone who (as has been pointed out) invested a lot of time in plots and micromanaging.
You also had more intra-realm factions, because realms with 60-70 people had internal politics to spice things up. The last potential war and the current one on the FEI were both heavily influenced OOCly by rulers needing something to do for their players (not necessarily a bad thing) -- and in some cases outright OOC ruler channel chat about what we can do to make things less boring. I never saw this in '06 and '07 because there were so many more moving parts in each realm that it was pretty unlikely for all of them to stop at the same time and need an external push.
I also remember Tom having a pretty good reason for having a single d-list and not a whole discussion forum. I don't remember exactly what he said but somebody explained to me (hearsay, sorry if this isn't accurate) that one of the reasons was because he knew it'd turn into an OOC snipe-fest between players over whatever their characters were fighting about. Perfectly natural for a conflict-based game but not productive, and one of the things that dampened that for me was when characters could really pull off a 'medieval feel,' whether through RP or just simple letter-writing. It was like a built-in reminder of 'hey, this is just my character, Sir Dingley Dang, and I am just the actor.' It didn't always work and you still had sniping, but it was a nice hedge and it attracted people to the game. I'd run into about a dozen of them on the Internet over the years (though not as a clan or anything) and they were not people who would come onto the d-list and fight it out. If the game or people on the game made their experience less fun, they'd just leave. At the time, it was mostly game mechanics and bugs - and a lot of those are a hundred times better today. But the atmosphere of the game has changed because of title arithmetic.
When Dwilight first started, stuff like 'people will use titles' didn't even get discussion because it was just assumed as a base-line. The notion that a character with major influence would or could become a character of continent-wide influence who didn't care about this stuff (and this was not just one occasion in Terran, either) would have been foreign to everybody. This is reflected in the wiki, in the Dwilight welcome page, and (I think) even on the 'report an SMA violation' page. I didn't have a lot to do with any of those things besides the RP Primer, so if I have unreasonable expectations, it's because that's what a lot of the game had six years ago.
Sorry I'm not showing appropriate reverence to an internet noble. Just seems strange to me that you'd eulogize one example whose chief attribute was a lot of time and dedication to play the game but not the dozens who made BM a place that was something beyond just moving internet soldiers around a game board.
That was an amazing post.
The post is a load of vague and positive connotations of an idealised past. It contains no argument to justify the author's view on a logical basis. I suspect that it was subconsciously intended to buy sentimental support so that the author might vindicate, in his own mind, the decision of his to terminate his account several weeks ago.
Quote from: Kwanstein on April 14, 2013, 09:48:40 PM
The post is a load of vague and positive connotations of an idealised past. It contains no argument to justify the author's view on a logical basis. I suspect that it was subconsciously intended to buy sentimental support so that the author might vindicate, in his own mind, the decision of his to terminate his account several weeks ago.
Are you 12 or something? Next thing you know you're going to link me to the list of logical fallacies on wikipedia.
He
is describing the game as it was. Nowadays, people go "hurr durr
battlemaster i want to battle" and all they want to do is play a far too intense game of risk. In the past the game was about playing medieval nobles, not about maximum efficiency and "oo that sounds like fun let's do it!"
Look what's happening with might and fealty, it's just a giant more complex version of risk. I've hardly interacted with the many many nobles around me. The one family who asked me to swear fealty didn't even offer me any incentive beyond "then we can form a realm".
QuoteIt contains no argument to justify the author's view on a logical basis.
My post can be reduced to 'BM used to have lots and lots of players and that made it a better place. Now it has a whole lot less. Here is one reason why.'
BM is a game based on conflict. There is no 'idealized past,' the players were still trying to get the better of one another. The difference is that, now, that's
all most players are trying to do.
Back then there were more that made the attempt to add atmosphere to the game outside of 'give everyone something to do.'
Quotethat the author might vindicate, in his own mind, the decision of his to terminate his account several weeks ago.
I am sorry that your world is that small.
We all get attached to our characters, but my attachment is not so personal that I feel things like remorse or regret about leaving a continent for an internet game. I don't miss Dwilight and I don't get real life personal validation out of playing BM. It's a fun escape and in many respects it's a well-done game with a lot of really great players.
Like every other Internet social activity, it also has a vocal minority that needs personal validation and which gets it, however temporarily, from 'winning' BM. In small amounts this is natural and unavoidable because we're humans with messy emotions. When it becomes a prevailing attitude on the game, it costs me nothing to come by and tell you that it wasn't always like that.
There is no victory for me here. I'm already on the way out for reasons that have nothing to do with the state of the game and just hoping I can stick it out long enough to give some FEI players a good fight.
The players in 2006 and 2007 weren't better than the players now. Just having there be more of them automatically made everyone better, because more people means more factions and more politics and that rewards good player attitudes and clever writing a little more than it rewards good gameplay.
Quote from: BarticaBoat on April 14, 2013, 10:10:52 PM
Are you 12 or something? Next thing you know you're going to link me to the list of logical fallacies on wikipedia.
He is describing the game as it was. Nowadays, people go "hurr durr battlemaster i want to battle" and all they want to do is play a far too intense game of risk. In the past the game was about playing medieval nobles, not about maximum efficiency and "oo that sounds like fun let's do it!"
Look what's happening with might and fealty, it's just a giant more complex version of risk. I've hardly interacted with the many many nobles around me. The one family who asked me to swear fealty didn't even offer me any incentive beyond "then we can form a realm".
I've been around for a while too. I can tell you that if their isn't as much interaction with nobles, it's because of a lack of players, rather than not being willing to rp.
Quote from: BarticaBoat on April 14, 2013, 10:10:52 PM
Are you 12 or something? Next thing you know you're going to link me to the list of logical fallacies on wikipedia.
He is describing the game as it was. Nowadays, people go "hurr durr battlemaster i want to battle" and all they want to do is play a far too intense game of risk. In the past the game was about playing medieval nobles, not about maximum efficiency and "oo that sounds like fun let's do it!"
Look what's happening with might and fealty, it's just a giant more complex version of risk. I've hardly interacted with the many many nobles around me. The one family who asked me to swear fealty didn't even offer me any incentive beyond "then we can form a realm".
The game as a whole has never been very medieval. Maybe there were groups here and there who made serious attempts at it. Maybe Dwilight, when it was fresh and new, was able to coerce an exemplary effort out of people with it's novelty. But those are exceptions. When I started playing in 2006, the general of my realm was role playing "marathons," in both a figurative and literal sense, across enemy lands. I also recall parodies such as the Great Doctator which were well received by the player base.
As far as your notion that this game is nowadays full of power gamers, it is also false. As someone who's interested in playing this game competently myself, I am often horrified by the poor play of my peers. People not following orders, generals not issuing them. Tax rates being set arbitrarily low. There are many other such examples.
The lack of players being responsible for, well, a bunch of things goes without saying.
Good grief, people; can you not see that, to some extent, you're both right?
BattleMaster has always had a blend of two cultures: those who want to roleplay medieval nobles, and those who just want a Risk-type game.
Which you experience more of is heavily influenced by where you played, and when.
When I started playing, most of the game had somewhat more of a strategy-type feel to it than it does now. I would say that around 2008-9 or so is when the feeling of "medievalness" probably peaked, on average—along with, as has been noted, the size of the playerbase.
There are, however, places in BattleMaster now that are at least as roleplayed and medieval as any were then.
And there are places now that are more focused on hyper-efficiency and playing a war strategy game than they were then.
BattleMaster is not, and has never been, just one thing. That's part of what makes it so good.
QuoteThat's part of what makes it so good.
But the decline in one group happens to match the decline in the overall player base. Obviously that's just a correlation and I can't prove causation, and certainly not from the dozen or so people I kept in touch with out of game. But I've heard the same complaint from others.
You as the developers need to decide who you are going to cater to, because thus far you've been catering to the people most vocal on the forum. That's fine but from a numbers standpoint, it ain't working. Have a strategy, aim it at a group of people you most want to attract, and double down on it.
My argument is that offering a risk-type strategy game is fine and it's a good game but it's not that special. It doesn't turn heads. You had something that did but you didn't capitalize on it.
It's the easiest thing in the world to ask the people already playing your game what they want and to give them more of it. Much harder to ask what people who aren't playing your game want, particularly if it's at odds with the people you've got.
QuoteI am often horrified by the poor play of my peers. People not following orders, generals not issuing them.
Quoteas your notion that this game is nowadays full of power gamers, it is also false
I think you just disproved your own point. Those things aren't horrifying.
Quoteit's because of a lack of players, rather than not being willing to rp.
When I say 'RPers' I don't mean 'people who write roleplays' but 'people who invest in the theme of the game beyond a strategy board game.' People who put in a few little touches here and there that make the same business of regions and estates and takeovers something more than the sum of their parts. That's what makes a realm interesting and what keeps people from leaving.
Quote from: Scarlett on April 15, 2013, 12:02:01 AM
But the decline in one group happens to match the decline in the overall player base. Obviously that's just a correlation and I can't prove causation, and certainly not from the dozen or so people I kept in touch with out of game. But I've heard the same complaint from others.
You as the developers need to decide who you are going to cater to, because thus far you've been catering to the people most vocal on the forum. That's fine but from a numbers standpoint, it ain't working. Have a strategy, aim it at a group of people you most want to attract, and double down on it.
My argument is that offering a risk-type strategy game is fine and it's a good game but it's not that special. It doesn't turn heads. You had something that did but you didn't capitalize on it.
It's the easiest thing in the world to ask the people already playing your game what they want and to give them more of it. Much harder to ask what people who aren't playing your game want, particularly if it's at odds with the people you've got.
I think you just disproved your own point. Those things aren't horrifying.
When I say 'RPers' I don't mean 'people who write roleplays' but 'people who invest in the theme of the game beyond a strategy board game.' People who put in a few little touches here and there that make the same business of regions and estates and takeovers something more than the sum of their parts. That's what makes a realm interesting and what keeps people from leaving.
All games eventually decline in players. Blame repetition, and a loss of novelty. After a few years of playing a person is liable to grow bored with BM and move on. Because this is a niche game to begin with, you can expect it to quickly exhaust it's pool of potential players. The fact that BM lasted for ten years is extraordinary and can be attributed to the gradual, levelled acquisition of players (as opposed to the front loaded sales that commercial games tend towards).
Your complaint about the devs catering to power gamers on the forums is insane. The developer support mostly amounts to bug fixes. On occasion when a new feature is released, it amounts to something like sea travel or automated trading. What, exactly, is the problem with that?
No, I'm sorry, but what you say is unconvincing. You attempt to paint this game as a nightmare mixture of risk and anti-medievalists, relying on the appeal that saying such things amongst dedicated role players is guaranteed to bring. It's nothing but hollow rhetoric. I maintain my Freudian theory that you are subliminally driven to these arguments as a means of self-affirmation.
Quote from: Kwanstein on April 15, 2013, 01:08:00 AM
It's nothing but hollow rhetoric. I maintain my Freudian theory that you are subliminally driven to these arguments as a means of self-affirmation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M
^ +1 internets to you
Quote from: Kwanstein on April 15, 2013, 01:08:00 AMBlah blah blah Freud blah
Son, I !@#$ better rhetoric than this self-important sophomoric blizz-blazz.
Quoteother comments
Compared to '06/'07, the devs have actually been catering to people like me in a lot of ways. The gameyness of a lot of things is substantially less than it was. Not everything but most of the people I know who left the game did so calling it 'peasantMaster' and so on, and that aspect is a whole lot better.
But that's programming. I'm talking about thematic catering. Right now it's out of sync: it says 'serious medieval atmosphere' but ain't. So either change what it says to whatever you think it really is, or change what it is.
Don't do it the way I'd want you to do it. I won't be here anyway. Just make a conscious decision about the kind of people you want and appeal to those people. Sure these things are cyclical but the only way I'm at all unique among the group of people I'm talking about is that I came back to check things out again and most of them won't.
I'm also concerned about the amosphere now in comparison to that of old. I agree that the diminishing player base probably caused all kinds of changes in the dynamics but other than that I have a hard time putting a finger on exactly what could be better.
Personally I'm wondering if you shouldn't do some cultural imperalism. In this case that would mean that at least 10 active dedicated players created/sought themselves to a newly created realm and did everything for it to become a cultural superpower. No doubt will the reputation go of who is there and how much fun they are having and from that standpoint try to influence the culture on an entire island, and eventually all islands.
With religion and guilds and such it has never been easier to communicate island-wide and as such spread ideas across an island.
Maybe it will change nothing or perhaps it will make the realms on every island very uneven in player participation.
Either way, it would be great fun and a great challenge with a noble goal. To make the whole game more fun for everyone.
Quote from: Scarlett on April 13, 2013, 03:49:04 PM
Titles are also a good example because they're the very first thing on the 'do' list on the Dwilight wiki page. Why is that? Rewind to 2006.
Similar discussions were had then, some around the FEI, which had lost its designation as the 'RP Island' well before even then. And when I say we had a lot of RPers, I don't mean that the only thing we're missing now is people who would log in and write paragraphs of text about whatever they did that day (though some did). These were people who could take a black screen with white text on it and convey a real feeling of place and time. It wasn't one thing they did; it was a thousand little things, and collectively it made BM special for a lot of people, most of whom clearly aren't around anymore to talk about it.
Not to wade into this, because the title conversation is irrelevant to me, but I just have to note this: God, those were the days, Scarlett. When Lasanar would be filled to the brim every day with great RPs (remember the Vulpes-Kestrel Wedding?).
And it is a damn shame what so many vanished - not even just on FEI, but there were great RPs in Ibby around a love triangle - and I'll definitely agree that we lost a talented pool of people. But some come back and there is enough new blood - RP-wise - to make me hopeful.
My point is: Yes, things were definitely amazing back then and I still remember the old Galiard and Dodd RPs and chuckle to myself, but in a way Kwanstein is right. That a good part of that is nostalgia and that we can only focus on the present.
Quote from: Scarlett on April 15, 2013, 01:31:40 AM
Compared to '06/'07, the devs have actually been catering to people like me in a lot of ways. The gameyness of a lot of things is substantially less than it was. Not everything but most of the people I know who left the game did so calling it 'peasantMaster' and so on, and that aspect is a whole lot better.
But that's programming. I'm talking about thematic catering. Right now it's out of sync: it says 'serious medieval atmosphere' but ain't. So either change what it says to whatever you think it really is, or change what it is.
Don't do it the way I'd want you to do it. I won't be here anyway. Just make a conscious decision about the kind of people you want and appeal to those people. Sure these things are cyclical but the only way I'm at all unique among the group of people I'm talking about is that I came back to check things out again and most of them won't.
What thematic catering are you talking about? Who are these 'people' you keep on referencing?
Just as an aside, I can only imagine how joyless playing a game with people who coin terms like "peasant master" would be. That unjustified, self-righteous witticism is proof in my eyes of a puritanical mindset which could rob any game of it's whimsy faster than you could say it.
Quote from: Kwanstein on April 15, 2013, 03:18:54 AM
What thematic catering are you talking about? Who are these 'people' you keep on referencing?
Just as an aside, I can only imagine how joyless playing a game with people who coin terms like "peasant master" would be. That unjustified, self-righteous witticism is proof in my eyes of a puritanical mindset which could rob any game of it's whimsy faster than you could say it.
For all to witness: proof of Kwanstein being an internet master debator
Contrary to what you'll find on the internet with people using the word peasant, BM was once called peasantmaster because a hell of a lot of time was spent tending to regions before the new estate system. I understand not everyone remembers those days though. When are you turning 13 brah, that's a big year!
Quote from: BarticaBoat on April 15, 2013, 03:44:58 AM
For all to witness: proof of Kwanstein being an internet master debator
Contrary to what you'll find on the internet with people using the word peasant, BM was once called peasantmaster because a hell of a lot of time was spent tending to regions before the new estate system. I understand not everyone remembers those days though. When are you turning 13 brah, that's a big year!
Come on, he knows how to use a thesaurus pretty well, he must at least be 14.
Aside from a couple of people having a reasonable debate, this thread has turned into little more than insults, so it's getting locked. Getting really sick of these toxic Dwilight threads, people.
Warnings issued to 2 people.