How does this work? What triggers it? What's the purpose of this apparently random maintenance time-sink? Is there any way to make it stop?
My region is fed, it's not really far from the capital, it has a knight, proper estates covering authority, they are happy about low taxes, and stats still drop because of this thing. It really feels like the game doesn't want me to do anything else than region maintenance, these days...
I see it generally happen when Loyalty is low. What are the Region's Stats? Any other things we need to know? Has it been recently taken?
There is some hidden stats on regions in the game and this is one of them. Popularity drops when you hold harsh courts, brutal and hostile (?) takeovers and when your realm loots the region or any adjacent region. Presumably there are other factors that involve it as well.
It can be repaired (slowly) by civil work in the region, festivals in the duchy and I think by holding just and perhaps also merciful courts. Diplomats and courtiers can probably be helpful as well but I don't really know about them...
Quote from: Thunthorn on August 01, 2011, 10:31:51 AM
There is some hidden stats on regions in the game and this is one of them. Popularity drops when you hold harsh courts, brutal and hostile (?) takeovers and when your realm loots the region or any adjacent region. Presumably there are other factors that involve it as well.
It can be repaired (slowly) by civil work in the region, festivals in the duchy and I think by holding just and perhaps also merciful courts. Diplomats and courtiers can probably be helpful as well but I don't really know about them...
new noble chars, advies, priests and diplomats can see how the local populance views certain realms.
It's not the same as loyalty i believe but works similiar and the locals view does influence loyalty i think.
Experiment a little with diplomats changing view of your realm positivley and see if it goes away.
I have the same in Madina and will try it to.
No looting, regions we've had for quite some time, no harsh courts, stats were at great levels when it started, still at tolerable levels.
Quote from: Thunthorn on August 01, 2011, 10:31:51 AM
There is some hidden stats on regions in the game
This is true.
Quote
and this is one of them.
This is not.
Is this mechanic random?
And what does it contribute to the game? It doesn't feel like something that we can actively trigger in an enemy realm, so it sounds like maintenance work for the sake of maintenance work. And it is reducing actual war frequencies...
Quote from: Chénier on August 02, 2011, 03:55:57 AM
Is this mechanic random?
No.
Quote
And what does it contribute to the game?
It is telling you what the problem with the region is.
And it's more obvious than you think.
Quote from: Chénier on August 02, 2011, 03:55:57 AM
And what does it contribute to the game?
To clarify a little further:
"The people here hate/do not like being ruled by us" is not a separate mechanic. It is a description of something that goes on in regions.
The devs are still working out what mechanics should be simply revealed to the players, and what should be left for the players to work out by observation. Honestly,
knowing how it works, this one could easily be understood by observation, if people gathered the data available to them, looked at it, and stopped proposing crazy theories.
Quote from: Anaris on August 02, 2011, 04:17:30 AM
To clarify a little further:
"The people here hate/do not like being ruled by us" is not a separate mechanic. It is a description of something that goes on in regions.
The devs are still working out what mechanics should be simply revealed to the players, and what should be left for the players to work out by observation. Honestly, knowing how it works, this one could easily be understood by observation, if people gathered the data available to them, looked at it, and stopped proposing crazy theories.
For anyone interested in blowing apart the mystery, here's 30 consecutive days worth of reports from Alowca whilst it was in dire straits last month. 'The people here do not like being ruled by us' turned up 17 times:
Trials of Alowca#Raw Reports (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/The_Librarium/The_Trials_of_Alowca:_A_Study#Raw_Reports)
Head up to Daily Reports (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/The_Librarium/The_Trials_of_Alowca:_A_Study#Daily%20Reports) on the same page to see how many times each separate daily factor occurred during the month.
You can ignore the guff I've written around most the stats. I don't have a clue really. It served it's purpose just fine as proof that Alowca is far too messed up for her deterioration to be the lord's fault alone and that's all I cared about really >.<
Hmmm... I think I worked it out
Quote from: Iltaran on August 02, 2011, 06:41:28 AM
Hmmm... I think I worked it out
If you're not just putting us on, then please share.
Quote from: Anaris on August 02, 2011, 12:39:38 PM
If you're not just putting us on, then please share.
Indeed.
At the very least, I deserve to be told, surely? I did collect the data :-P
I'll need to collect data to prove it, but my suspicion is that it occurs when loyalty to another realm is higher than loyalty to the controlllng realm.
well... that would make sense, insofar as loyalty is the same thing as sympathy.
court and other stuff can only influence sympathy to your own realm (ie.. loyalty)... and not the others.
Quote from: fodder on August 02, 2011, 06:43:09 PM
well... that would make sense, insofar as loyalty is the same thing as sympathy.
court and other stuff can only influence sympathy to your own realm (ie.. loyalty)... and not the others.
What?? you mean there's a rational explanation for a game designed to simulate the real world?
Madness!
Except that you figure that people that are 100% happy, 100% loyal, and not having any seditious thoughts would not "dislike being ruled by us". A better wording of "would prefer to be ruled by another" would make sense.
I'll check that out see if it makes any sense... As an ambassador, I could try to fix this, if it really is the case.
If it is accurate, I can't believe this was coded in before ambassadors were even put in. It's kinda douchebaggy (sorry to whoever did it) to implement such a harsh mechanism over a variable players have no control over. Priests hardly count, as their loyalty tools are pretty awful.
Quote from: Chénier on August 02, 2011, 10:56:10 PM
Except that you figure that people that are 100% happy, 100% loyal, and not having any seditious thoughts would not "dislike being ruled by us". A better wording of "would prefer to be ruled by another" would make sense.
If you can show me evidence of this message happening when your region is at 100% morale and 100% loyalty, I will fix the bug that causes it.
But I very much doubt that you can.
I unfortunately don't have a record of when the stats were at what levels. I will try to bring them back up when I return to test things a bit.
Hmm, I only just realised that I counted 17 cases of 'the people dislike being ruled by us' but some days it wasn't worded that way. Some days it said 'the people do not like being ruled by us.'
Looking at it more closely, not like turned up 8 times in the beginning of the month. After that 9 cases of dislike. The different wording suggests one of these effects is more powerful than the other. I would guess the latter is more powerful given the dire straits Alowca was in. But 'dislike' is just a way of shortening 'do not like' in my mind. They mean one and the same thing.
Chenier's right, we could do with some rephrasing somewhere. Dislike and despise maybe? Something that makes it clear. You know, just like you have distance from capital makes anarchists prosper and distance from capital makes anarchists prosper greatly?
(Can you believe I hardly knew any of these distinctions existed until a week or so a go? >.<)
Okay, so the dictionary definition of dislike can mean 'a feeling of distaste'. When you look at it like that, 'do not like' seems much more concrete and definitive. A step above dislike. But that really doesn't come across at first glance. It's not obvious at all.
Other suggestions for a change in wording:
The people here detest being ruled by us.
The people here loathe being ruled by us.
There's already a "hate being ruled by us" in addition to the previously mentioned ones.
I have to ask, is it also influenced by immigration? Say Krimml in EC was depopulated drastically. With the immigration code as is, it'd fill up with people from neighboring regions. If the majority were Westmoorian rather than Fontanese, would that affect loyalty? Is the code the in depth?
My serfs are, go figure, in love with Sint.
Quote from: Draco Tanos on August 05, 2011, 10:41:38 AMI have to ask, is it also influenced by immigration? Say Krimml in EC was depopulated drastically. With the immigration code as is, it'd fill up with people from neighboring regions. If the majority were Westmoorian rather than Fontanese, would that affect loyalty? Is the code the in depth?
No.
But that is something I would really love to see for religions.
Quote from: Indirik on August 05, 2011, 05:07:57 PM
No.
But that is something I would really love to see for religions.
I'd like to see it with realm loyalty too. It could be viable strategy to exterminate a population and then repopulate it with your own people to have better loyalty.
Quote from: Bedwyr on August 03, 2011, 01:49:23 PM
There's already a "hate being ruled by us" in addition to the previously mentioned ones.
How about:
The people here grumble at being ruled by us / The people here dislike being ruled by us / The people here hate being ruled by us
Quote from: Revan on August 06, 2011, 12:18:49 AM
How about:
The people here grumble at being ruled by us / The people here dislike being ruled by us / The people here hate being ruled by us
[/quote
That sounds pretty close to what currently exists.
QuoteYou meet with a group of minor nobility known for keeping abreast of local events in Pahk for 2 hours and manage to learn the following from your talk:
The locals are deeply devoted to Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na, and are bursting with pride to call it their home.
The locals are very loyal to Enweil, and would be happy to belong to such a realm.
The locals are very insular, and hate those from realms they don't know.
QuotePahk: Lack of knights reduces region control. The local people enjoy the low tax rate. The people here do not like being ruled by us. (...)
The game is telling me two extremely contradictory messages there...
so far i could understand it, the mentioned message is actually anticipation of what will happen next day rather than consequence, so it is giving you warnings in advance.
how to deal with causes? i believe Thunthorn offered best explanation. I would add to it that I assume there is something like memory of peasants, they remember some actions for long time and only long time of hard work can change it.
the vice-versa, accumulation of region work should remove this problem for a while.
the other factor that affect things is relative quality of region stats compared to neighboring regions, similarly to satisfaction with taxes level, which depends much on neighbor's taxes.
Quote from: Chénier on August 07, 2011, 03:28:16 PM
The game is telling me two extremely contradictory messages there...
No, the game is telling you that your people have two extremely contradictory loyalties. That's probably the highest sympathy you can have to a realm you don't belong to right there. That tension of divided loyalties thus leads to Pahk experiencing the mildest expression of displeasure (do not like) to your realm. The most simple and elegant solution to resolving those conflicting loyalties would be to denounce/bad mouth Enweil.
I think (hope?) I'm starting to get this system.
Quote from: Indirik on August 05, 2011, 05:07:57 PM
No.
But that is something I would really love to see for religions.
Quote from: Adriddae on August 05, 2011, 10:15:52 PM
I'd like to see it with realm loyalty too. It could be viable strategy to exterminate a population and then repopulate it with your own people to have better loyalty.
I'd like to see it for both religion and loyalty/sympathy as well. Much like how the US gained control of Mexican/Spanish lands during the early to mid 1800s. Yay colonization.
Any idea how hard would it be to code? :/
Quote from: Revan on August 07, 2011, 05:16:47 PM
No (...)
Sorry? "The locals are deeply devoted to Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na, and are bursting with pride to call it their home" and "The people here do not like being ruled by us" are *not* contradictory? There is no contradiction at all between bursting with pride about one's government and not liking being ruled by it? No contradiction at all?
If that's not a contradiction, then I don't know what on earth is.
Anaris, how does this code work? You seemed to hint that this code only kicks in if loyalty is higher for another realm than for your own. Clearly, bursting with pride is higher than very loyal. You said to come back if I saw that the dislike message was being shown when loyalty was best for my realm than for others. So I have. Is this a bug?
Quote from: Chénier on August 07, 2011, 11:33:23 PM
Anaris, how does this code work?
Not quite like you think.
QuoteIs this a bug?
Not so far as I can tell.
(I would like to start this by saying I have not looked at the relevant code)
Tim said if the message showed up at 100% loyalty and 100% morale, it was a bug. I'm going to assume from that diplo report that the loyalty was 100% or close enough to make no difference. What was morale like, though?
Quote from: Bedwyr on August 07, 2011, 11:57:04 PM
(I would like to start this by saying I have not looked at the relevant code)
Tim said if the message showed up at 100% loyalty and 100% morale, it was a bug. I'm going to assume from that diplo report that the loyalty was 100% or close enough to make no difference. What was morale like, though?
"Joyful", whatever the hell that means.
Quote from: Chénier on August 07, 2011, 11:33:23 PM
Sorry? "The locals are deeply devoted to Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na, and are bursting with pride to call it their home" and "The people here do not like being ruled by us" are *not* contradictory? There is no contradiction at all between bursting with pride about one's government and not liking being ruled by it? No contradiction at all?
This almost sounds like one of those Lateral Thinking puzzles. And if it were one of those, I would be asking:
1) "The people here do not like being ruled by us" - Who are "us"? The realm? The government? Council Members? The local lord? The local knights?
2) "The people here do not like being ruled by us" - Who are "the people here"? Those in Pehk? Those in Pehk and surrounding areas? Those in the Duchy of Iato?
It would, for example, not be contradictory to say "The people here in Pehk do not like being ruled by Lord Scufflebottom, even though they are bursting with pride to be part of a realm with a comically long name". Or to say "The people here in the Duchy of Iato do not like being ruled by a realm with such a long name, because although the people of Pehk think it's amusing and fantastic, the majority of people in the rest of the duchy just think it's a silly name invented by a ruler who wanted to see how long and unpronouncable a realm name he could make without being protested out of office".
Quote from: psymann on August 09, 2011, 05:08:15 PM
This almost sounds like one of those Lateral Thinking puzzles. And if it were one of those, I would be asking:
1) "The people here do not like being ruled by us" - Who are "us"? The realm? The government? Council Members? The local lord? The local knights?
2) "The people here do not like being ruled by us" - Who are "the people here"? Those in Pehk? Those in Pehk and surrounding areas? Those in the Duchy of Iato?
It would, for example, not be contradictory to say "The people here in Pehk do not like being ruled by Lord Scufflebottom, even though they are bursting with pride to be part of a realm with a comically long name". Or to say "The people here in the Duchy of Iato do not like being ruled by a realm with such a long name, because although the people of Pehk think it's amusing and fantastic, the majority of people in the rest of the duchy just think it's a silly name invented by a ruler who wanted to see how long and unpronouncable a realm name he could make without being protested out of office".
"Us" is plural. It's therefore obviously not the lord. That message is also sent realm-wide, so it would be inappropriate to use this vocabulary if it means anything other than "we, the realm".
Attempts at humor when trying to understand contradictory game mechanics forcing me and other players I play with to waste time on maintenance instead of fighting does not amuse me.
Quote from: psymann on August 09, 2011, 05:08:15 PM
This almost sounds like one of those Lateral Thinking puzzles. And if it were one of those, I would be asking:
1) "The people here do not like being ruled by us" - Who are "us"? The realm? The government? Council Members? The local lord? The local knights?
2) "The people here do not like being ruled by us" - Who are "the people here"? Those in Pehk? Those in Pehk and surrounding areas? Those in the Duchy of Iato?
It would, for example, not be contradictory to say "The people here in Pehk do not like being ruled by Lord Scufflebottom, even though they are bursting with pride to be part of a realm with a comically long name". Or to say "The people here in the Duchy of Iato do not like being ruled by a realm with such a long name, because although the people of Pehk think it's amusing and fantastic, the majority of people in the rest of the duchy just think it's a silly name invented by a ruler who wanted to see how long and unpronouncable a realm name he could make without being protested out of office".
Looking at the precise language and trying to suss further meaning out of it is not likely to be terribly fruitful at the moment.
Gather some more stats, and see what patterns emerge. You clearly don't have nearly enough datapoints yet.
funny thing i saw when looting... "the people of region X now hates your realm" or something to that effect.