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BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: Tom on May 08, 2012, 02:10:10 PM
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For further/final tweaking of food production and trade balance, I am looking for constructive feedback. That means numbers and experience. I want to know what the surplus or deficit is, how trade is working out, if there is food on the market or if buy offers are sitting unfilled. I'd like to know what the effect on food prices is, if cities are buying or waiting for rurals to post offers. If the trade is mostly based on buy or sell offers. I want to know if regions are starving or awash in food.
This topic will accept constructive feedback only. Any and all whining, complaining, baseless assumptions, hypothetical fearmongering and such like will be mercilessly deleted. That includes deletion of complete postings if there's so much as one sentence of that crap in there. There are other topics where you can cry us a river that your realm will run out of food in two RL years and how the sky is falling because you're having a 3 bushels deficit in bad weather.
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I will start with a few numbers valid as of right now, as the frame of reference that I'm (among other things) using for my tweaking decisions:
Right now, there ware over 200,000 bushels of food in granaries around Dwilight. Rogue regions are not counted.
That means the average region has over 1000 bushels stored. That runs from empty to several thousand bushels, with 2 regions topping the list far ahead of everyone else.
But even ignoring the top and bottom 10% or so, the total is still 160,000 bushels and the average almost 900 bushels. And that's not even counting the 13,000 bushels that are on the market right now. Which, btw., seems to have balanced out somewhat, as there are also 15,000 bushels asked. Why are they unfilled? Mostly because the buy price offered is quite low.
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Mine personally has 55 bushels, and I rule a rural region that produces a surplus, and haven't sold any food for a week or two.
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Mine has over 2k bushels, and produces a surplus of 3 bushels per day. Rural, full production.
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My experience so far is that lords need to be rememberd everytime to sell their food, even one lord came to me asking for gold while there were around 1.000 bushels stored in his region. In the cases that they sell, they mostly accept the buy offers I place.
Re enabling rotting proves to increase the micromanagement of the food, now I have to worry about not stockpiling too much food in one region and this means I have transfer food back to regions and post small buy orders when I need food. This means I depend largely on others to have food available when I need it, rather then I just buy up everything I see when it becomes available. Personally I would prefer an increase in consumption to replace rotting, as this would allow me to build up a large stockpile and not worry about food for a few weeks. I can imagine others with smaller cities think differently about it.
Trading with other realms happens only with those in reach of the market, we have a trader in the realm but even then other parts of the continents are not easy to reach.
That the kind of feedback you looking for tom?
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You have the capacity to store enough for "a few weeks" I have over 110 days of food stored in Libidizedd. I know that other cities in Astrum have the same, or more.
Keep in mind that Giask is an outlier with your massive food requirements. Youu *will* have special needs that most don't. You will have to build more granaries, and pay more attention to your food situation than, say, the Margrave of Gaston or Chrysantalys. But that's also why you make 3k+ gold per tax. Get used to the fact that being Margrave of Giask puts you in a special situation. You *will* have to do more work than most other city lords.
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Caiyun, a townsland with 12k pop, now has a production of 13 and a consumption of 28. At food prices of 50 gold/100 bushels (next to worst case scenario, worst case scenario being "there is no food to be had"), that translates in the long term to 53 gold per week of extra spending to feed a townsland, which feels reasonable to me. I currently lose 10 extra bushel per day to rot (I'm at the high end concerning stored supplies), so that's an extra cost for safety.
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@vonGenf: what is the weather like in your area?
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Asurbanipal (11k, 291 bushels base) Dwilight, north Shore.
You have 2 granaries with a capacity of 2000 bushels.
You have 1631 bushels of food stored.
Your region produces a surplus of food.
I just used the Market feature from Gaston. The dukes in Astrum (eidulb) had set up some offers, which I snapped up. I believe the price was 25 per 100, though memory is hazy. Quite easy to make gold :)
I'll post surplus numbers soon, I think I need to be in region for it.
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Re enabling rotting proves to increase the micromanagement of the food, now I have to worry about not stockpiling too much food in one region and this means I have transfer food back to regions and post small buy orders when I need food.
umm...why? Rot is not exponential. You will get the exact same rot with 2000 bushels sitting in one region, as you would with 1000 bushels sitting in 2 regions, assuming both regions have sufficient granaries. And you should, with the doubling of granary size.
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umm...why? Rot is not exponential. You will get the exact same rot with 2000 bushels sitting in one region, as you would with 1000 bushels sitting in 2 regions, assuming both regions have sufficient granaries. And you should, with the doubling of granary size.
Is there no minimum threshold for rot?
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Is there no minimum threshold for rot?
No. And there never has been. All food has always rotted. Except, as I said, for the brief transitional period that just ended.
The only thing you can do is reduce the amount of rot by ensuring that you have enough warehouses/granaries to hold it all, because it rots faster outside of them.
(And before I fixed it a year or so ago, if you had too much food to fit in the warehouses, it was treating it as if all your food was outside of them. And that was when you still had a fixed 500-bushel warehouse, with no opportunity to build more.)
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I actually like the food deficit of mines and townslands. They produce a lot of gold anyway.
My region produces 0 bushel of food now as my production equals my consumption but I am losing 1 bushel a day due to having 500 bushels in my granaries.
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@vonGenf: what is the weather like in your area?
Average.
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No. And there never has been. All food has always rotted. Except, as I said, for the brief transitional period that just ended.
Actually, there is now. But it is on the very low end and should not matter for anyone's calculations. Its purpose is mainly to eliminate rot for very low food stores where a) rounding errors start to matter and b) starvation is your more pressing concern. In short, nothing to worry about, just something that makes things a bit simpler.
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Re enabling rotting proves to increase the micromanagement of the food, now I have to worry about not stockpiling too much food in one region and this means I have transfer food back to regions and post small buy orders when I need food.
What would it take for you to stop worrying about rot and simply accept it without trying to "work against" it? Basically, what would it take to remove your desire to micro-manage?
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What would it take for you to stop worrying about rot and simply accept it without trying to "work against" it? Basically, what would it take to remove your desire to micro-manage?
Well, judging from the way many people have been acting, removing the line in the report that tells them about rot would reduce the amount they freak out about it.
However, I think having that line is a good thing, and it's just something they're going to need to get used to.
It might, however, be worthwhile making a general announcement about the fact that there has always been rot (and in greater amount than there is now), they just didn't get told about it before.
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I don't understand all the fuss about it either. Don't store so much food in the granaries. Just put good buy offers to attract sellers. Not hard. I put 20 gold per 100 bushels and I am actually getting food from other realms.
I have recently built another granary and now my region can store 3k food but with the new changes and addition of rot, I think the new granary isn't that necessary.
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What would it take for you to stop worrying about rot and simply accept it without trying to "work against" it? Basically, what would it take to remove your desire to micro-manage?
Being able to store food without having to concern myself about the rotting proces, as it stands now the more food I store the more I loss on rotting which means I should keep as low stock as possible to decrease the amount of food I'm losing. I don't care too much about the amount of bushels lost, as there needs to be a food balance on the continent, so for my part cities get increased consumption. Then I can just buy all the food I see and not have to worry about too many variables and thus reduce the amount of thought I have to put in it.
If that isn't an option I will just need to learn to work with it again.
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Production in Jorradith is at 99%, with a full population the region produces a surplus of 6 bushels per day after the production nerfs; with 363 bushels in the granary because I haven't had a chance to go back there in a while, 4 bushels rot. Weather in the North Shore region is "average" right now.
Also, what is the period of the rot? How often does food rot? Every day, every few days? I'd thought it was every day but I didn't get a rot report on my daily region report today.
Re enabling rotting proves to increase the micromanagement of the food, now I have to worry about not stockpiling too much food in one region and this means I have transfer food back to regions and post small buy orders when I need food.
If there are 2000 bushels of food in your city, 20 of those will rot; if you have 200 bushels of food across 10 regions, 2 bushels in each region will rot, or 20 bushels. The only difference is whether or not you bought the food that is presently rotting elsewhere or not, which you're right, will increase micromanagement if you are trying to get the most bang for your buck.
It will also increase micromanagement if you want to maximize your profits. As you store more food, your effective production drops and so food stores need to be kept low as you send out small amounts for sale more frequently in order to make the most money you can. Stored food in rurals now also caps out at (depending on the rot period; I thought it was daily but didn't get a rot report on my daily region report today), for Jorradith, between 500 and 600 depending on the weather and assuming food rots daily.
Added potential to micromanage seems kind of nice, as long as it doesn't end up being required and the difference doesn't end up being that large.
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Being able to store food without having to concern myself about the rotting proces, as it stands now the more food I store the more I loss on rotting which means I should keep as low stock as possible to decrease the amount of food I'm losing.
Aigh!
No.
Nononono.
While strictly speaking, this is true—if you store 100 bushels, 1 rots; if you store 200 bushels, 2 rot—it's not like storing 3000 bushels will make a greater percentage of it rot than storing 30.
Furthermore, it doesn't matter where the food is stored. If it's stored in Outer Giask, or Mellifera, or Uttar Pradesh, it'll rot just as fast as if it's stored in Giask.
The only thing you can gain by moving food around like this is making sure you don't have to see the rot messages every morning.
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Delvin, I'm talking about me as lord. Couldn't care less about the other regions, so me as lord needs to micromanage as the food rots in my granaries.
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The only thing you can gain by moving food around like this is making sure you don't have to see the rot messages every morning.
He also wouldn't have to pay for the portion of the food that rots which, depending on food stores (if, by convention, we say that the most recently bought food goes to the top, while regions eat from the bottom) could be pretty high. If he has food left for 23 days after factoring in rot on that food (not enough for winter) and he buys more now, then by the time his city gets around to eating that new food towards the end of winter, 22% (1 - .99^23) of it will have rotted in *his* granaries instead of someone else's, which is an effective 28% increase on the price per bushel that he pays.
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What would it take for you to stop worrying about rot and simply accept it without trying to "work against" it?
Based on what many people have said: Automatic buy offers. Since the complaints, as I understand them, are not so much, "I need to buy food more often than I want," but rather, "I have to go to the market myself and place buy offers more often than I want," I think this would satisfy an awful lot of gripes.
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I'm still not at all convinced that your micromanaging is gaining you anything but stress.
I'd be curious to know how much gold D`Este is projecting to save...
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I'd be curious to know how much gold D`Este is projecting to save...
None likely if consumption is increased to compensate for the removed rot. Just at least I could store as much as I want too without worying about rotting.
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the only thing is some cheapskate will think... heck, why am i buying food to rot in my granary when i can let it rot in someone else's granary and buy the unrotted bit when i need it.
of course.. the seller can just turn around and say. sure thing, i'll just let the lot of them rot and hike the price on the remaining food when you get around to buying them. i think it's best to just let markets work things out... i think there's still a glut, just from seeing the extremely low buy price (10-20) and fairly low sell price (20 odd?) in the market recent mapping tour to the western bit of dwi..
when the glut is burnt away a fair bit, tweak it again then.
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Based on what many people have said: Automatic buy offers. Since the complaints, as I understand them, are not so much, "I need to buy food more often than I want," but rather, "I have to go to the market myself and place buy offers more often than I want," I think this would satisfy an awful lot of gripes.
Automatic sell offers would be nice too, so us region lords don't have to watch our granaries fill up to production capacity (where production = rot, which right now for Jorradith is between 500 and 600 bushels, assuming rot happens every day(?)). Obviously the numbers are going to be tweaked more, but as it stands right now with 300 bushels in warehouse, with average weather and 99% production in Spring, my production of food is halved per day.
Relatedly, since there was a lot of bellyaching, I'm just posting these numbers up to get them out there, since I see a lot of Margraves posting but not a lot of Counts.
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Aigh!
No.
Nononono.
While strictly speaking, this is true—if you store 100 bushels, 1 rots; if you store 200 bushels, 2 rot—it's not like storing 3000 bushels will make a greater percentage of it rot than storing 30.
Furthermore, it doesn't matter where the food is stored. If it's stored in Outer Giask, or Mellifera, or Uttar Pradesh, it'll rot just as fast as if it's stored in Giask.
The only thing you can gain by moving food around like this is making sure you don't have to see the rot messages every morning.
My granaries can hold 6000 bushels. If I have 12000 bushels stored, the rate of decay will be much greater than if I have 6000. As such, the game encourages me to keep food stores at about 6000 bushels to minimize rot.
That being said, that's neither new nor abnormal.
My experiences, prior to this change, with setting up buy offers is that when I put offers to buy thousands of bushels for 10 gold per 100, I quickly found sellers.
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People are going to panic and hold on to their food for a few weeks, then will start selling again.
Why would they resume trading, until the numbers change? It's very unstrategic to export food when you know you are a net consumer. Which all of the realms seem to have become (as the top food supply realms have reported deficits).
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What would it take for you to stop worrying about rot and simply accept it without trying to "work against" it? Basically, what would it take to remove your desire to micro-manage?
My food shortage?
I'm not actually asking you to make D'Hara a net exporter, that would make things quite boring. But as long as we require a resource, it's rather normal that we'll do everything we can to minimize waste. Food costs gold, after all, and rotting food is wasted gold.
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Here's some on-topic feedback--does the food report "days remaining" take into account rot? seasons?
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Here's some on-topic feedback--does the food report "days remaining" take into account rot? seasons?
good point. No, at this time it does not. It's early in the morning - can someone cough up a formula that takes rot into account? An approximation would be enough.
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Kabrinskia is not having problems with their Lords not wanting to sell food at a reasonable price. They do however forget to put their food up for sell.
I just got made lord of Mozyr and it had 1900 bushels of food just sitting there and Golden Farrow was in need of food and had lots of buy offers up. I simply sold most of the food in Mozyr to Golden farrow and made a nice profit for it.
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Maybe add a little notification in the daily region report sent to the Lords, reminding them if large food stockpiles are sitting idly?
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Stay on topic, everyone. I've deleted all posts that did not provide any actual feedback. I will continue to do so. Is it not possible to have one focussed, concentrated topic on these boards?
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Maybe add a little notification in the daily region report sent to the Lords, reminding them if large food stockpiles are sitting idly?
That would be the rot report. If you have 100 bushels rotting, you should maybe sell some.
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Hmmm... good idea on the stockpile info. Adding the stockpile levels to the daily report would be nice. It is info that the lords already have, but it would be a memory jogger.
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good point. No, at this time it does not. It's early in the morning - can someone cough up a formula that takes rot into account? An approximation would be enough.
daily_loss = consumption+rot
if daily_loss is < production, then display blank, else:
days_remaining = (bushel_count) / absolute(production - daily_loss)
Yes, it's a bit conservative, because rot will be overstated, but it will become more accurate the fewer days food remain.
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daily_loss = consumption+rot
if daily_loss is < production, then display blank, else:
days_remaining = (bushel_count) / absolute(production - daily_loss)
Yes, it's a bit conservative, because rot will be overstated, but it will become more accurate the fewer days food remain.
You can easily do better with a linear approximation. On the day of the report, you have daily_loss=consumption+rot. On the last day before actual starvation, you will have daily_loss=consumption since the granaries will be near empty. Therefore, on average from today to the first of starvation you will have daily_loss=consumption+rot/2.
The formula will be wrong if you are over your granary limits, in which case it could simply be replaced by "You have too much food and can't count it properly".
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Background information: Your region is currently estimated to produce 30 bushels of food a day, while the peasants eat 22 bushels, resulting in a net surplus of 8 bushels per day, or 56 per week.
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You can easily do better with a linear approximation. On the day of the report, you have daily_loss=consumption+rot. On the last day before actual starvation, you will have daily_loss=consumption since the granaries will be near empty. Therefore, on average from today to the first of starvation you will have daily_loss=consumption+rot/2.
The formula will be wrong if you are over your granary limits, in which case it could simply be replaced by "You have too much food and can't count it properly".
Excellent. Yes, as an approximation it's close enough. I'll add it right now.