BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Development => Topic started by: vonGenf on March 20, 2013, 01:39:31 AM
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It looks great! I have a few questions:
However, overall, there will be around a 25% food surplus on each continent,
Can we be told if that corresponds to an increase or a decrease? There was a comment in the food rebalance thread that said the continents were not standardized in that respect, can we get a rough break of how that will play out by continent?
Also generally, will this yield relatively more or less food to the cities and townslands compared with the rurals?
You can expect to see this rebalance coming live in the beginning of April.
Please wait at least for the 2nd to avoid confusion..... but you probably thought of that.
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Can we be told if that corresponds to an increase or a decrease? There was a comment in the food rebalance thread that said the continents were not standardized in that respect, can we get a rough break of how that will play out by continent?
From what I read in previous discussions in forum and on IRC, this is a net increase in food for Dwilight, and a net decrease in food for all other continents. Dev's can feel free to correct me on that though.
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It looks great! I have a few questions:
Can we be told if that corresponds to an increase or a decrease? There was a comment in the food rebalance thread that said the continents were not standardized in that respect, can we get a rough break of how that will play out by continent?
Also generally, will this yield relatively more or less food to the cities and townslands compared with the rurals?
^ban^ has really been the mastermind in the last few iterations; he should be the one to answer these.
Please wait at least for the 2nd to avoid confusion..... but you probably thought of that.
Well, we're going to send it live when we're confident that it's ready.
If you're worried about April Fools...that's really been Tom's thing, and from all appearances (and from what he's said to us devs), he's been too busy lately (both with M&F and RL stuff) to do anything.
(In previous years, he's done his April Fools work in such a way as to be secret even from the other devs, so...yeah, we don't really have much to do with that.)
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From what I read in previous discussions in forum and on IRC, this is a net increase in food for Dwilight, and a net decrease in food for all other continents. Dev's can feel free to correct me on that though.
This is correct.
Food is distributed away from cities and townslands.
Gold is distributed towards cities.
Total gold on each island is increased by about 10%.
Food surplus is increased only on Dwilight: it is decreased on all others -- in some cases (BT) by very large amounts. The specific amounts vary per island.
Also, BT and AT regions no longer have matching stats! :)
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Also, BT and AT regions no longer have matching stats! :)
Okay....you've got me to bite.
How is that possible? Aren't the continents identical except for the blight?
I guess Blight reduces trade routes or some such?
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There was some noise added to the final results to create some variance. This will provide a chance that any particular region could slightly above or below typical for their characteristics.
Edit: also, the coastlines of the islands are no longer identical. This affects the final calculated stats of the regions that have become coastal on BT, but are still landlocked on AT.
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So rurals get food, cities get gold...what can badlands expect to get? Monsters?
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Were population numbers changed at all?
I see a rural region on Atamara with 20k pop, (more than many cities), and some rural regions all around the 15k pop range.
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Population was not changed. We were discussing some, but I don't think anything came of it.
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Oh okay thanks, I just remember some discussion about large outliers like the ones I mentioned being attempted to be changed, because they didn't really make much sense.
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No idea why the city/rural food spectrum would need to be any more severe.
Reduction of surplus is going to suck because you never implemented auto trade. Camping in market regions is going to be so much fun.
Food was best when nobody cared about it, now it's a total chore and the automation is all gone.
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I love the sound of this change! You guys rock!
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I am excited that my townland will now have a surplus. I always thought it was weird that I didn't.
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There was some noise added to the final results to create some variance. This will provide a chance that any particular region could slightly above or below typical for their characteristics.
Edit: also, the coastlines of the islands are no longer identical. This affects the final calculated stats of the regions that have become coastal on BT, but are still landlocked on AT.
They get to fish?
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Is it bad that as soon as I saw "beginning of April" I assumed this was an April fools joke?
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This is correct.
Food is distributed away from cities and townslands.
Gold is distributed towards cities.
Total gold on each island is increased by about 10%.
Food surplus is increased only on Dwilight: it is decreased on all others -- in some cases (BT) by very large amounts. The specific amounts vary per island.
Also, BT and AT regions no longer have matching stats! :)
Poor D'Hara.
This is going to make them starve even more as their towns lands get less productive.
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Poor D'Hara.
This is going to make them starve even more as their towns lands get less productive.
As long as Dwilight produces more food overall, at least we'll be able to buy it from somewhere. Better than produce more ourselves but being totally unable to buy what we lack.
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I am excited that my townland will now have a surplus. I always thought it was weird that I didn't.
It will? I thought ^ban^ said food was being distributed away from townlands.
I too will be curious to see what becomes of region types other than rural and urban. You'd think that badlands, for example, would by definition be dirt poor in all respects, whereas now they can be relatively wealthy for the size of their populations despite not producing much in the way of food.
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We really don't want any region to be useless. Everything should be useful for something. At the moment we only have food and gold to work with. Badlands will still produce some gold and food. But maybe not much in excess.
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Is it bad that as soon as I saw "beginning of April" I assumed this was an April fools joke?
Your mistake is that, would they really give that obvious of a hint? Btw, Tim already said, the April fools jokes are exclusively done by Tom.
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It will? I thought ^ban^ said food was being distributed away from townlands.
#$%# I missed that. :'(
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We really don't want any region to be useless. Everything should be useful for something. At the moment we only have food and gold to work with. Badlands will still produce some gold and food. But maybe not much in excess.
Does this mean, by implication, that we can expect further rebalancing when additional resources are added?
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It's possible, I suppose. That won't be any time soon, though. That kind of stuff isn't even on the radar right now.
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I do not mean to sound impatient, I realize that this is all a lot of work, and as far as I know it is all volunteering.
When will the extra resources be implemented? Or worked on? Is there any non-coding help that is needed? I feel like this was all talked about a long time ago (with support from everyone) and now it is discussed as something that isn't on the radar.
Same thing goes for the estate features.
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Additional resources are something that will not even be talked about amongst the devs until well after the Doctrine transition is through. There are a number of other things that we know will help that must be done before then.
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And how is the doctrine coming?
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And how is the doctrine coming?
My best guess at the moment is that it might be done by the end of the year.
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Food surplus is increased only on Dwilight: it is decreased on all others -- in some cases (BT) by very large amounts. The specific amounts vary per island.
How much has it been decreased on other islands? Can you post Before and After stats?
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How much has it been decreased on other islands? Can you post Before and After stats?
I believe they all have a 25% surplus now.
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Is it bad that as soon as I saw "beginning of April" I assumed this was an April fools joke?
So....apparently this wasn't the April Fool's Joke. But, the beginning of April is now... Anyone else excited and wondering when it'll go live? (I assume soon)
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So....apparently this wasn't the April Fool's Joke. But, the beginning of April is now... Anyone else excited and wondering when it'll go live? (I assume soon)
^ban^ is working on getting it finalized. I don't expect it'll be much longer.
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So, over a month later... when's this coming live? We are about to get a serious starvation on our hand, and this should be the season where we worry about these kinds of thing the least.
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So, over a month later... when's this coming live? We are about to get a serious starvation on our hand, and this should be the season where we worry about these kinds of thing the least.
With ^ban^ having finished exams, we should be able to put the finishing touches on it within the next week or so.
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cough
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*embarrassed little laugh*
...Yeah, this kinda slipped. But it slipped because we really want to take into consideration the criticisms people have been making here, and, unfortunately, ^ban^ (who's really been spearheading it) has been having much less time lately due to getting a new job and moving in RL.
We're very close to being able to call it done, but I'd very, very much rather have this take another month or two than have it go live and cause loads of problems.
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I'm curious, what sort of criticisms were considered relevant?
To me, it had seemed that people were primarily upset when their own personal regions were hurt, and less so when looking and overall balance. When players looked at overall balance, each one seemed to think it was a good idea.
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I'm curious, what sort of criticisms were considered relevant?
To me, it had seemed that people were primarily upset when their own personal regions were hurt, and less so when looking and overall balance. When players looked at overall balance, each one seemed to think it was a good idea.
There are some problems with low-population cities, and problems with very-low-population-density regions. We also noticed some discrepancies between the version of the rebalance whose numbers you are seeing and the version that ^ban^ had carefully hashed out, and are working to rectify them.
It is important to us that the rebalance not reduce the overall fun potential of the game, nor reduce the overall fun potential of significant areas of any continent. (Small areas and individual regions, however, will still end up getting nerfed.)
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There are some problems with low-population cities, and problems with very-low-population-density regions. We also noticed some discrepancies between the version of the rebalance whose numbers you are seeing and the version that ^ban^ had carefully hashed out, and are working to rectify them.
It is important to us that the rebalance not reduce the overall fun potential of the game, nor reduce the overall fun potential of significant areas of any continent. (Small areas and individual regions, however, will still end up getting nerfed.)
I'm mainly curious how the algoritm "thinks". It was said before that closeness to water was "a good thing" gold-wise? How about mountains? On some islands, mountain regions (metal working considered I guess) are among the richest while on at least Dwilight (maybe others?) they are among the poorest.
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Dwilight mountains are poor partially due to the low population. We are considering increasing them.
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Dwilight mountains are poor partially due to the low population. We are considering increasing them.
The Divides would thank you. So far, those useless regions will become more useless with the rebalance.
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I hope that the economy rebalance won't increase global gold supplies. Gold is plentiful enough -- what with so many families reaching the wealth cap so soon after it was raised -- it would unbalance things further if gold supplies were increased.
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I hope that the economy rebalance won't increase global gold supplies. Gold is plentiful enough -- what with so many families reaching the wealth cap so soon after it was raised -- it would unbalance things further if gold supplies were increased.
As I believe has already been stated, the current version of the rebalance would increase gold supplies by around 10% on every continent.
Part of the reason for this is simply that if it did not provide a net increase, there would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth, and many people would feel, that, no matter its long-term effects, it was a terrible, awful change just because it reduced the gold in their favourite areas.
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MOAR GOLD!
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As I believe has already been stated, the current version of the rebalance would increase gold supplies by around 10% on every continent.
Part of the reason for this is simply that if it did not provide a net increase, there would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth, and many people would feel, that, no matter its long-term effects, it was a terrible, awful change just because it reduced the gold in their favourite areas.
The idea of having to offer a numerical carrot with every update has resulted in the average unit size moving from 300-400 CS to 600-1k, as wave after wave of estate updates heaped their numerical carrots on the back of the original design of travel times, repair times, honour limits etc.
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The idea of having to offer a numerical carrot with every update has resulted in the average unit size moving from 300-400 CS to 600-1k, as wave after wave of estate updates heaped their numerical carrots on the back of the original design of travel times, repair times, honour limits etc.
If you can tell me why, in an objective way, this is wrong, I am willing to listen.
Personally, I have not been able to see any meaningful reason why it would be bad to boost the overall gold income, but I am perfectly willing to listen to potential problems it might raise.
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Urm, city lord will command larger troop.. And militia in the city will be enlarge.. That fun.
Maybe hard to start a Rebellion after this..
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This new re-balance is mostly increasing gold of cities (large ones) and mountains (except ones on Dwilight) without increasing their population meaning they are just getting more gold without spending much on food. As Terises Jr. said, this will make big cities even harder to assault. There are cities with over 4k gold income meaning they can recruit militia up to 25k CS. With enough food, it will be almost impossible to besiege the cities...
As for people now commanding 600~1000 CS, that is mostly due to lack of players. Since we don't have as many players as we used to, everyone is just getting a lot of gold.
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This new re-balance is mostly increasing gold of cities (large ones) and mountains (except ones on Dwilight) without increasing their population meaning they are just getting more gold without spending much on food. As Terises Jr. said, this will make big cities even harder to assault. There are cities with over 4k gold income meaning they can recruit militia up to 25k CS. With enough food, it will be almost impossible to besiege the city...
We have some ideas about how to deal with this, too. The rebalance alone can't fix all our woes.
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We have some ideas about how to deal with this, too. The rebalance alone can't fix all our woes.
Good. I was worried about increasing gold while not increasing population. It would be very problematic :-\
Also, with this rebalance, it seems we are reverting back to the previous rebalance - making badlands useless again. Is the dev team thinking about this as well? It would be too disadvantageous for realms with a lot of bad regions.
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It would be too disadvantageous for realms with a lot of bad regions.
Um...it should be.
Remember, the balance isn't intended to be made based upon current realm borders. If your realm gets screwed, well that sucks, but this is about long-term game balance.
Namely, I just think we should implement something and start adjusting from there. We can suppose what will happen all we want, but until we actually see how dynamics change, we'll never know for sure. If your personal strength goes down, you're gonna complain. If you're personal strength goes up, you're probably gonna support it.
In general though, it doesn't matter what change is made. A change just needs to be made. Primarily, basing the stats actually on something real. That's the whole point of this as far as I remember.
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Values which were assigned randomly by the dev? Does anyone know how rich medieval port cities were compare to cities close to rivers and lakes?
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I thought this rebalance was suppose to tie food production to region size along with a few other factors and gold to population.
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Values which were assigned randomly by the dev? Does anyone know how rich medieval port cities were compare to cities close to rivers and lakes?
These new numbers aren't random, they're being applied via a formula. Gods, I don't know how many times I or other devs have repeated this...
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It is not our intention that there be any useless regions, in the long run.
We are working on ways to make badlands regions—and other regions without much gold or food value—still worthwhile. It's not a trivial problem.
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The population values are still pretty arbitrary, as are the region sizes and types.
We're looking at changing some of these to bring the values more in line with what we think is good gameplay.
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These new numbers aren't random, they're being applied via a formula. Gods, I don't know how many times I or other devs have repeated this...
Based on my understanding, the numbers that came from the formula aren't random. But the formula uses the values assigned in the economic page (available to see when you are a courtier) + region type (coastal, lake, midland).
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The population values are still pretty arbitrary, as are the region sizes and types.
We're looking at changing some of these to bring the values more in line with what we think is good gameplay.
I think the main problem is that when Tom originally created islands, he never though of balancing regions to begin with. You can see that from region distributions across EC and Atamara. Especially, EC where there are wealthier regions in the south while useless badlands in the north.
Rebalances that came after that increased the gap between the north and south mostly. Of course with the implementation of the coming resource system - which I highly doubt will come within a feasible time frame - this will mostly fixed.
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We have some ideas about how to deal with this, too. The rebalance alone can't fix all our woes.
So we have to wait 2 month for rebalance . And maybe 2 year for that 'some ideas'..
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So we have to wait 2 month for rebalance . And maybe 2 year for that 'some ideas'..
Yes, you do. For a free game, whose development team—coders, editors, admins, GMs, and the rest—all volunteer parts of our free time entirely out of our love for the game.
So unless you have a few hundred thousand dollars to a) pay a few of us to quit our jobs for a couple of years and work full-time on BattleMaster, and b) then continue to pay us until we can find new jobs better than working at a restaurant or an ice-cream store, I suggest you keep complaints about how long it takes to get this stuff done to a minimum.
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If you can tell me why, in an objective way, this is wrong, I am willing to listen.
Personally, I have not been able to see any meaningful reason why it would be bad to boost the overall gold income, but I am perfectly willing to listen to potential problems it might raise.
Gold is almost pointless now. My characters have a total of ~10k gold pooled, with another 13k family wealth -- and this is after less than a year of playing. They can't spend their gold on units, because units cost too little. They can't spend their gold on recruitment centres, because their regions already have lots of recruitment centres and adding more would be pointless. They cannot spend their gold on militia, because their regions aren't threatened, so militia for them would be pointless also.
Their choice is either to spend their gold on pointless things, or else to continue saving the gold for no reason. As a result, I no longer care for gold other than as an E-Peen metre, and not really even for that. That is why I was hoping that gold supplies would decrease, as a decrease would be a step towards making gold valuable again.
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Gold is almost pointless now. My characters have a total of ~10k gold pooled, with another 13k family wealth -- and this is after less than a year of playing. They can't spend their gold on units, because units cost too little. They can't spend their gold on recruitment centres, because their regions already have lots of recruitment centres and adding more would be pointless. They cannot spend their gold on militia, because their regions aren't threatened, so militia for them would be pointless also.
Their choice is either to spend their gold on pointless things, or else to continue saving the gold for no reason. As a result, I no longer care for gold other than as an E-Peen metre, and not really even for that. That is why I was hoping that gold supplies would decrease, as a decrease would be a step towards making gold valuable again.
There has been some thought of introducing some ways to make use of very large amounts of gold, too, possibly up to tens of thousands.
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Gold is almost pointless now. My characters have a total of ~10k gold pooled, with another 13k family wealth -- and this is after less than a year of playing. They can't spend their gold on units, because units cost too little. They can't spend their gold on recruitment centres, because their regions already have lots of recruitment centres and adding more would be pointless. They cannot spend their gold on militia, because their regions aren't threatened, so militia for them would be pointless also.
Their choice is either to spend their gold on pointless things, or else to continue saving the gold for no reason. As a result, I no longer care for gold other than as an E-Peen metre, and not really even for that. That is why I was hoping that gold supplies would decrease, as a decrease would be a step towards making gold valuable again.
That's hardly everyone's case.
And it amazes me how some people can so utterly lack imagination as to what to do with their excess gold.
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That's hardly everyone's case.
And it amazes me how some people can so utterly lack imagination as to what to do with their excess gold.
Personally, I fund wars with my gold.
And gamble.
It's actually a lot of fun.
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Personally, I fund wars with my gold.
And gamble.
It's actually a lot of fun.
Fun for lord of city..
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Increasing gold supply may also make older characters with more H/P more attractive. Since gold would not be much of a factor in determining army sizes, the only thing limiting army sizes will be the honour limit, players may be tempted to keep around older characters to field larger armies.
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But then they would take forever to get anywhere since bigger units are slower and older characters get less hours. It could work with cavalry though.
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But then they would take forever to get anywhere since bigger units are slower and older characters get less hours. It could work with cavalry though.
Which aren't as good as others against walls. And as it's the cities that would get more gold, they'd likely also have more militia, and thus, cities would be much harder to assault directly.
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If you can tell me why, in an objective way, this is wrong, I am willing to listen.
Personally, I have not been able to see any meaningful reason why it would be bad to boost the overall gold income, but I am perfectly willing to listen to potential problems it might raise.
>travel times, repair times, honour limits etc
War is more difficult with long travel times. Large units take longer to repair, all this does is slow down war and repairing 20 hours is just downright boring. Hitting the honour limit is easier than ever, makes new player units less useful. Paraphernalia production rate has not(?) been changed, so the same production has to service a larger number of soldiers. This stuff is kind of obvious?
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>travel times, repair times, honour limits etc
War is more difficult with long travel times. Large units take longer to repair, all this does is slow down war and repairing 20 hours is just downright boring. Hitting the honour limit is easier than ever, makes new player units less useful. Paraphernalia production rate has not(?) been changed, so the same production has to service a larger number of soldiers. This stuff is kind of obvious?
Those are all reasons not to recruit large units. That is a player choice. There is nothing about having more gold that forces you to recruit larger units, especially if you are running into these problems.
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Those are all reasons not to recruit large units. That is a player choice. There is nothing about having more gold that forces you to recruit larger units, especially if you are running into these problems.
I think his point was that, with all else being equal, more gold available means all sides will end up recruiting bigger units. This won't change anything to the actual course of a war, since both sides are still on the same footing as before, but it will increase travel and repair times, making warfare altogether slower. It's not an unbalancing effect, but it's a slowing effect. While I think the effect is small, it is a fair point.
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Anyway, why we must increase gold? Fun.. Hurm, gold can't buy fun..
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You're not frequenting the right establishments. ;)
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All the developers of this game are incredibly obtuse. No point even trying. This game is doomed and so is MF.
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All the developers of this game are incredibly obtuse. No point even trying. This game is doomed and so is MF.
If you don't like it, there's nothing that forces you to stay.
If you do like it, then I strongly suggest you refrain from directly and deliberately insulting every single dev who works on the game in our own free time.
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All the developers of this game are incredibly obtuse. No point even trying. This game is doomed and so is MF.
I don't see you contributing anything :p These people are volunteering. They are not getting paid to work on this game. You should learn to appreciate it maybe?
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I do think the point with increasing gold reserves makes sense. It is of course connected closely with the idea of less nobles. So as nobles decrease, the gold per noble increases.
For instance, on average a noble on Atamara currently has about 1,600 gold. That is utterly insane. That is the current outstanding gold amount.
How will that ever get spent?
The idea of implementing a system whereby you can spend tens of thousands of gold is a good one I can certainly support.
Alternatively, you could inflate prices of everything. It would probably increase game balance somewhat.
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All the developers of this game are incredibly obtuse. No point even trying. This game is doomed and so is MF.
You seem to have a hobby of putting people down. I remember a similar highly negative comment of yours a while ago.
The developers of this game are first and foremost making you a present. I'm not saying don't look a gift horse in the mouth, and we are certainly open to criticism, but if you got something for free, there's a certain expectation of respect implicit when you complain about it.
Also, you're still around. Why? No, don't answer that question. I don't really care. You should simply ask it yourself and find an honest answer and then, well basically there are two ways to go from here for anyone of integrity: Leave the game (since you think it's doomed) or apologize (because that's no way to treat people who made you a gift).
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I liked this game, but response to complaints is always "I don't see a problem" or "we know better than you" or "go play war island" or "if you don't like it leave" or "you're doing something wrong". I explain further, comprehended by at least one person, get the same response from dev, lose patience. Plenty of people have already left. I'm out as soon as I've finished my last war.
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For instance, on average a noble on Atamara currently has about 1,600 gold. That is utterly insane. That is the current outstanding gold amount.
How will that ever get spent?
Go settle in a poor realm and raise it from poverty. There are plenty of realms that could use a rich uncle money-bags. Or, you could come to Perdan and see that gold used up in a week.
War, colonies, funding dissidents....1600 gold won't go far with a creative mind. If there really is nothing to spend the gold on, your realm is stagnant and you need to travel to better prospects.
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Go settle in a poor realm and raise it from poverty. There are plenty of realms that could use a rich uncle money-bags. Or, you could come to Perdan and see that gold used up in a week.
War, colonies, funding dissidents....1600 gold won't go far with a creative mind. If there really is nothing to spend the gold on, your realm is stagnant and you need to travel to better prospects.
War is not that expensive. Not if you have a rich realm. When Dukes store upwards of 50k on their person in a realm like Darka. It would take years to run through it all.
The problem is that it's all just stored up.
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I liked this game, but response to complaints is always "I don't see a problem" or "we know better than you" or "go play war island" or "if you don't like it leave" or "you're doing something wrong". I explain further, comprehended by at least one person, get the same response from dev, lose patience. Plenty of people have already left. I'm out as soon as I've finished my last war.
If you want the game to be made in your image, maybe you should contribute in stead of bitch about the contributions of others.
That said, I can't say I've ever found myself with too much gold. There's always uses for it, either short or long term.
You might want to look at increasing the fine cap though. 250 gold is a little low and it'll only get lower.
And while you're at it, maybe increase the tax rate cap too? ;)
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War is not that expensive. Not if you have a rich realm. When Dukes store upwards of 50k on their person in a realm like Darka. It would take years to run through it all.
The problem is that it's all just stored up.
It took some 10 years to build it up too. War is totally expensive if you're not getting paid for it, just look at Ibladesh.
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It took some 10 years to build it up too. War is totally expensive if you're not getting paid for it, just look at Ibladesh.
But that's my point. It is one reason that inflation of costs would make sense.
You've had gold poured into the game and yet no inflation visible in the game for 10 years. People will obviously build up stockpiles. One way to discourage stockpiling is to make gold spent now worth more than gold spent later. Basic economic theory.
Why not be subtle about it even? Increase gold production by 10% island wide, but also increase all costs by 10%.
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I liked this game, but response to complaints is always "I don't see a problem" or "we know better than you" or "go play war island" or "if you don't like it leave" or "you're doing something wrong". I explain further, comprehended by at least one person, get the same response from dev, lose patience. Plenty of people have already left. I'm out as soon as I've finished my last war.
If that is what you think, then you must have been completely ignoring all my posts in this thread for at least the past month or so.
If you look at some of my recent posts here, you will see things along the lines of, "Yes, that's a problem." "We want to get it right rather than release early." "We know this won't solve everything, but we're working on the stuff it doesn't."
How you can read that and still think what you've said above utterly baffles me.
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If that is what you think, then you must have been completely ignoring all my posts in this thread for at least the past month or so.
If you look at some of my recent posts here, you will see things along the lines of, "Yes, that's a problem." "We want to get it right rather than release early." "We know this won't solve everything, but we're working on the stuff it doesn't."
How you can read that and still think what you've said above utterly baffles me.
Why we must spend 3 year for this rebalance and some idea? We have many new feature that can add fun to this game..
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Why we must spend 3 year for this rebalance and some idea? We have many new feature that can add fun to this game..
a) It's not 3 years.
b) The rebalance is another thing that will add fun to the game.
c) As has been stated over, and over, and over, and over: There are not many devs. We are all volunteering our time. That time is not unlimited. We have to prioritize.
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a) It's not 3 years.
b) The rebalance is another thing that will add fun to the game.
c) As has been stated over, and over, and over, and over: There are not many devs. We are all volunteering our time. That time is not unlimited. We have to prioritize.
a) almost 6 month now..
B) this fun depend on noble, some will get but some not..
C) yes i know, we all know that.. This rebalance make other feature or anything being postpone to maybe 2 year more..
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There seem to be only two people in the devs now. Can't really do a lot of stuff with just two people...
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a) almost 6 month now..
B) this fun depend on noble, some will get but some not..
C) yes i know, we all know that.. This rebalance make other feature or anything being postpone to maybe 2 year more..
a)6 months is far from 3 years although this hasn't been announced for 6 monthes but 3 I believe.
b)you don't really know how it will affect people, but its a lot better than simple arbitrary numbers like the old ones
c)other features and bugs have been worked on during the time that this has been worked on and once more, where are you getting 2 years from?
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There seem to be only two people in the devs now. Can't really do a lot of stuff with just two people...
Especially when one of them just started a new job on the other side of the country from his hometown.
I haven't had time to contribute anything of worth in over a month: i.e. since the rebalance got put on hold.
But yeah, if you'd like to see something get finished, we'd love the help. Really. We're only two people, and Tim has been carrying 99% of the weight.
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B) this fun depend on noble, some will get but some not..
Then why does it matter how long the code developing takes? Make your own fun.
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It does seem that there are some unfair expectations on the behalf of some players. This is a free game. No-one is paying for its development. It is exciting to hear of new features, sure, but they happen when they happen. Just enjoy BattleMaster for what it is and enjoy the devs being so open about what they do. There's no need for the negativity.
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Especially when one of them just started a new job on the other side of the country from his hometown.
I haven't had time to contribute anything of worth in over a month: i.e. since the rebalance got put on hold.
But yeah, if you'd like to see something get finished, we'd love the help. Really. We're only two people, and Tim has been carrying 99% of the weight.
As I said before, I'm willing to help with this. But as long as it doesn't require me to log into IRC at specific times, which I just can't really do.
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What kind of help are you hunting for?
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Any status update on this? It would sure make my life easier (and BM a lot more fun) if the food increase was put in place.
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Any status update on this? It would sure make my life easier (and BM a lot more fun) if the food increase was put in place.
There are basically two main things that we're still not sure about:
1) The shift of gold to cities (in particular, certain high-value cities)
2) The long-standing imbalance in gold between the north and south of the EC and FEI
We'd really prefer not to do more rebalances...
...though there is something to be said for "real programmers ship".
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Well at least with a change in place you'll have a better idea what any problems that need to be tuned are. I too would really love to get the change in.
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We'd really prefer not to do more rebalances...
...though there is something to be said for "real programmers ship".
While this is of course ideal, there is really no substitute for making a change and seeing the result. Closed-circuit tests will never be able to fully illustrate how players adapt and make changes to gameplay and style based upon a new set of circumstances. So while I can understand the ideal, I think waiting for a "perfect" rebalance will only mean that changes are never actually implemented.
I think that this thread and others have made it quite clear that regardless of what changes are made, some people will be happy, some will be upset, and some will recognize the benefits it brings to the game. Ultimately though, once your other concerns are met (with regards to figuring out what you mentioned) you just have to try something and see what happens.
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Real programmers ship really working code most of the time. ;)
Delay for quality, always. Look at Blizzard. :P
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Real programmers ship really working code most of the time. ;)
Delay for quality, always. Look at Blizzard. :P
You've never seen Rome: Total War have you?
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Real programmers ship really working code most of the time. ;)
Delay for quality, always. Look at Blizzard. :P
Not always.
Ever heard of "Lean Start-up?"
Fail fast, and replicate quickly.
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Touche. Might as well be indie then. :P
Also, the fail-fast is not deliver a failure of a product and repeat. It's deliver small increments of user facing changes through a medium (usually a website) that can take changes and fixes fast. This way the benefit is you know almost certainly what caused it to fail and can fix unforeseen errors fast.
Difference is we don't have the resources to iterate at that fast of a pace and the drawbacks of failure greatly outweighs the potential benefits of delivering a half-completed rebalance.
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I don't see any drawbacks to releasing the food portion of the rebalance, at least.
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I don't see any drawbacks to releasing the food portion of the rebalance, at least.
I do.
You're missing the point of the rebalance, which is that it is the first step in my long-term goal of getting BM a working economy.
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I do.
You're missing the point of the rebalance, which is that it is the first step in my long-term goal of getting BM a working economy.
Your long-term plan sounds great, it really does.
But in the short term, you have every banker on Dwilight (except Morek and Nielsur) playing FoodMaster instead of BattleMaster. I've contacted all of them. You're going to see a lot of regions going rogue this winter unless the food values get adjusted. Now, I suppose this helps with the "player density" problem, but it's certainly not a fun way to do it.
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I have just seen a city which produces negative food post-rebalance on Dwilight xd.
It's Rettleville for those interested.
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I have just seen a city which produces negative food post-rebalance on Dwilight xd.
It's Rettleville for those interested.
Yes, we know. There's a reason the rebalance isn't live yet. :P
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Kinda interested though, how does one produce negative food?
Do they produce nothing at all and pump some food out of the peasant's bellies and throw it away? :O
Battlemaster! Now also a game of horror! :D
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But in the short term, you have every banker on Dwilight (except Morek and Nielsur) playing FoodMaster instead of BattleMaster. I've contacted all of them. You're going to see a lot of regions going rogue this winter unless the food values get adjusted.
Frankly, I don't care. The project will progress as I have time to put into it, and it is not something that I can or will partially release. Releasing a portion of this project without the rest is a recipe for disaster because of the huge changes involved.
For example, the rebalance is modifying the population of every single city on Dwilight. No exceptions. The food portion relies very heavily on this, and the food portion is being balanced by gold values of regions. As you've already seen, there are regions experiencing massive changes in their gold production.
At the end of the day, rogue regions mean nothing to me. My objective is not, and never was, to resolve short-term problems.
All that said, the project is in its final stages.
Edit: Also, because we're already along into Autumn, releasing it now would not fix your problem. Have some fun with it.
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Wait... Populations is going to be changed? I thought reading somewhere in this thread that there would not be population change. Is it going to ensure that gold production for cities are not crazy high?
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Frankly, I don't care. The project will progress as I have time to put into it, and it is not something that I can or will partially release. Releasing a portion of this project without the rest is a recipe for disaster because of the huge changes involved.
For example, the rebalance is modifying the population of every single city on Dwilight. No exceptions. The food portion relies very heavily on this, and the food portion is being balanced by gold values of regions. As you've already seen, there are regions experiencing massive changes in their gold production.
At the end of the day, rogue regions mean nothing to me. My objective is not, and never was, to resolve short-term problems.
All that said, the project is in its final stages.
Edit: Also, because we're already along into Autumn, releasing it now would not fix your problem. Have some fun with it.
Honestly, you should really listen more to the people who have to play through this. having to deal with food CONSTANTLY really is stressful, and played a large part in burning me out until i hardly had any patience for the game anymore. this was a huge part of why i quit and deleted my account.
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I think that perhaps you don't understand what "we are all volunteers working in our spare time" really means.
All the devs spend what time they can, working to develop the game as best they can. That means stuff takes time to fix or implement. Sometimes that time is very significant. If you want instant response and lots of resources expended to change the eemergency-of-the-day, then maybe you should play a game with a full time paid dev team.
In the meantime, if you find some part of the game too stressful, then stop playing that part of the game, and do something else. Let someone else who doesn't mind doing it take over.
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Honestly, you should really listen more to the people who have to play through this. having to deal with food CONSTANTLY really is stressful, and played a large part in burning me out until i hardly had any patience for the game anymore. this was a huge part of why i quit and deleted my account.
Honestly, you should consider who it is you're speaking to before telling me what I already know.
In the past, I was banker of Barony of Makar. At the same time, and through to today, I play the banker of Luria Nova. That same character currently stands as the single most skilled trader in the game. I became involved in the food system explicitly to determine what the issues with the current system are and how they can be fixed.
Without any degree of gloating, hubris, or whathave you, I can tell you as a fact that there is no one with as much knowledge about the food system as me.
I don't need you to tell me how stressful food is right now. I know what it's like. It's why I started this project and why I have put so much of my available time into working on a solution. I also understand the problems well enough to know that a band-aid solution will only make things worse.
Edit: Forgot a 'there'!
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So, any news? No pressure. 8)
It's just that sitting on two regions with +82% post-rebalance gold output makes me drool. ::) :-X
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Rebalance is finished, but waiting on other things before it goes live.
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Nice :P
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Rebalance is finished, but waiting on other things before it goes live.
Okay, thanks!