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BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: Valast on June 28, 2013, 08:09:09 PM
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Noticed fewer and fewer Infiltrators around the islands lately.
It is my thinking that this is a result of no real good way to train in infiltration without basically becoming ostracized, disowned, and eventually left with no where to go but a new island....and training still remaining low.
Anyone else agree or have a different opinion?
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This....is just one of the various issues that the dev team recognizes, and hopes to change, but since there's basically just me working on code right now, I'm afraid it's going to have to wait.
If you've got suggestions for how to rework the way infiltrator training works (and at this point, feel free to consider absolutely anything, including massive changes to the way the class functions, as long as they preserve game balance—bearing in mind that the balance may currently be slanted slightly against infiltrators...), I welcome more ideas.
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Probably flogging a dead horse here, but... give them their invisibility back? Or at least, for highly skilled infils?
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Probably flogging a dead horse here, but... give them their invisibility back? Or at least, for highly skilled infils?
At this point, I would say that that's unlikely, at least as a lone change.
I don't think it's something that's especially likely to bring back even as part of a more comprehensive package, though I won't rule it out entirely.
Part of the problem with invisibility has always been technical, not conceptual: catching every single place in the code where it is possible to determine the presence and name of a character in the region is not at all easy, and not being able to assume that every noble in the region can be seen by everyone else in the region causes more problems in adding new code than you might think.
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Because, as I can tell you from somewhat limited experience, being an infiltrator is a very situational class. There are a few cases where it's incredibly useful, and the rest of the time it's either useless or downright detrimental.
And even when there is a situation where an infiltrator can make his mark, it requires a load of training - which I only found out about after Rosnan (the infiltrator among my characters)... well, epically failed at an attempt at stabbing someone.
He got slapped with a fine from the judge of his realm (I probably should have checked diplomacy settings before trying to kill foreign government members) which he had no hope of repaying. 200 gold doesn't sound like a lot, but this was post-blight Beluaterra, where land productivity was so dismally low that a region lord in, say, Enweil could optimistically hope for maybe fifty gold on tax day. The target was chosen solely because he had the highest bounty on his head of anyone remotely nearby. It was a monetary issue.
In fact, that's the only reason I made him an infiltrator - because as I found out one good raid on a foreign tax office could bring in more cash than a whole week of waiting on the estate. I later realized how reckless this was, but it's still incredibly safe compared with assassination attempts. I think that's part of it - infiltrators take huge amounts of training to hurt people, but almost none to steal money, which makes them more of glorified thieves unless you grind 'em at the academy sixteen hours a day with the expert tutor. Which, again, costs more money than Rosnan ever had. Vicious cycle.
So, to wrap up my obnoxious narrative attempting to justify playing my first character like a jerk, this is all a roundabout way of saying infilitrator training is a pain in the neck. I think that's one reason they're unpopular. They're just hard to play, and require a lot of dedication for comparatively little payoff. The only place where there's anything to gain other than money or a stay in the dungeon is when you're going "in the service of the realm", and in that case it's safer to just get a big unit and go to battle anyway. And the fact that most realms RP being above that, regardless of its efficacy, which can't be controlled.
I guess one thing is that if anything the infiltrator deserves to be sorta kinda very slightly just a tiny bit overpowered in terms of mechanics to make up for the fact that in most places they're completely anathema in RP situations and realm laws.
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Yeah; one of the things I'm thinking of doing is changing the risk levels of infiltrator actions somewhat (and possibly adding some more low-risk actions) so that there are some actions that are much lower risk than others, but with a much lower skill cap, as well—so, for instance, if you wanted to simply count the gold in the tax office, and you had a skill of about 35%, you would be pretty much guaranteed to get away clean (unless you got very unlucky), but the ability to steal gold might not even be available to you until 30% or so.
Or something along those lines.
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Yeah; one of the things I'm thinking of doing is changing the risk levels of infiltrator actions somewhat (and possibly adding some more low-risk actions) so that there are some actions that are much lower risk than others, but with a much lower skill cap, as well—so, for instance, if you wanted to simply count the gold in the tax office, and you had a skill of about 35%, you would be pretty much guaranteed to get away clean (unless you got very unlucky), but the ability to steal gold might not even be available to you until 30% or so.
Or something along those lines.
I don't see how that would help. It's hard enough to get enough skill to do anything well as an infiltrator as is - there's the academy, which is a crapshoot (for all skills) to the point where it'd be easier to get more skill if you actually played craps for it, and there's actually going out and doing stuff, which is incredibly dangerous - and removing the ability to do certain actions at lower levels would only make it harder to do by this method.
Basically, another big problem with infiltrators is that it's a high-risk game even to get to the skill levels to actually play the intentional high-risk infiltrator game. It takes a long time to get up to respectable skill levels, but for that time it's dangerous and hard to do so to the extent where you might not survive to get to those levels.
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Basically, another big problem with infiltrators is that it's a high-risk game even to get to the skill levels to actually play the intentional high-risk infiltrator game.
That's precisely the problem the above is intended to solve: give low-skill infiltrators something worthwhile to do besides sit and train at the Academy, without a near-certainty of getting caught and banned.
Perhaps I didn't state it clearly enough, but I do think that it might be worthwhile adding some other infiltrator actions that don't (individually) do a whole lot, but do give you experience, and have very little risk of getting caught.
Not sure what yet, though.
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That's precisely the problem the above is intended to solve: give low-skill infiltrators something worthwhile to do besides sit and train at the Academy, without a near-certainty of getting caught and banned.
Perhaps I didn't state it clearly enough, but I do think that it might be worthwhile adding some other infiltrator actions that don't (individually) do a whole lot, but do give you experience, and have very little risk of getting caught.
Not sure what yet, though.
Search for secret societies?
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Search for secret societies?
Now there's a neat idea :)
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Infiltrate temples/guildhouses to count their treasuries.
Destroy shrines.
Kill troops (basically the same as killing militia but you target nobles' units instead).
Just some ideas.
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Raid Guildhouses/Temples
(What this means: Literally attack the guildhouse/temple treasury. Chance of success is inversely proportional to the number of guards hired to defend the temple. If there are no guards, or if you successfully kill all of the guards, then you get to steal all of the gold.)
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Three bans before you can be executed or deported.
Allow infils to be useful in a war without having to constantly migrate back in or chicken out after one ban (which is very easy to come by as has been established).
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Raid Guildhouses/Temples
(What this means: Literally attack the guildhouse/temple treasury. Chance of success is inversely proportional to the number of guards hired to defend the temple. If there are no guards, or if you successfully kill all of the guards, then you get to steal all of the gold.)
Well, you'd never get to just steal all of the gold (unless there was very little). Even if there aren't guards specifically for the guildhouse, there are plenty of others there who could catch you at it and fetch the authorities.
At a temple, you'd even be likely to find some who were unarmed, but willing to die for their faith just to delay you long enough to get caught ;D
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Three bans before you can be executed or deported.
Allow infils to be useful in a war without having to constantly migrate back in or chicken out after one ban (which is very easy to come by as has been established).
This, I think is not likely. This is a balance issue.
However, it might (might) be possible to introduce different levels of maximum sentence based on the crime you were caught for. If you were only caught stealing chickens the first time, execution is a bit extreme.
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This, I think is not likely. This is a balance issue.
However, it might (might) be possible to introduce different levels of maximum sentence based on the crime you were caught for. If you were only caught stealing chickens the first time, execution is a bit extreme.
I think if you introduce something like that, then you should also make it possible to execute someone caught trying to kill a ruler, even if they have no ban. As that would be the highest of crimes.
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One possibility on the subject of raiding temples and guildhouses: being able to break in and access things like member logs without joining the group. With a chance, of course, of getting caught. Something along those lines, anyway.
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I think if you introduce something like that, then you should also make it possible to execute someone caught trying to kill a ruler, even if they have no ban. As that would be the highest of crimes.
Only if it were actually possible to kill a ruler.
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Only if it were actually possible to kill a ruler.
Well I've already said that I thought infil's should have more power.
However, I know that's been shot down already.
My only thing is, it is hard enough to get rid of infiltrators that are constantly attacking you anyway at this point. Why make it more difficult?
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Well I've already said that I thought infil's should have more power.
However, I know that's been shot down already.
My only thing is, it is hard enough to get rid of infiltrators that are constantly attacking you anyway at this point. Why make it more difficult?
Based on everything I've said so far, what leads you to believe that I would support making it more difficult to execute an infiltrator who has been persistently assaulting nobles?
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It is already hard enough to stab a noble with even a small unit :p Can't even go near a guy leading 100 men.
Back when the game had more people, many people were leading smaller units but now even new people are leading 30-40 men...
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Yes it should be easier and more risk free to stab people (as in fail, but get away anyway. That doesn't really happen, ever.). This would naturally lead to more overture in realms and thus more opportunity for new nobles.
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Yes it should be easier and more risk free to stab people (as in fail, but get away anyway. That doesn't really happen, ever.). This would naturally lead to more overture in realms and thus more opportunity for new nobles.
I think that's probably a good idea, too. Increase the skill required to succeed slightly, but also decrease the skill required to have a good chance of getting away clean.
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Infiltrators might be able to kill captains.
Though the idea about searching for secret societies is something that quite literally sent chills down my spine. Just to be able to locate some, to learn the name of the society and where it is, that alone would be very very nice. Though naturally one could expand on that, like an extremely rare ability to get a letter sent to the society or some such.
Anything that makes the class more towards spymaster / intrigue type of play is good in my book.
Perhaps there might be a kind of an "assassination light" button that does not wound you but just makes you lose some or all hours at the turn change. So whatever you thought you had enough time to do you suddenly do not. Someone messed your papers, or the negotiation you entered took longer than expected, or the wine you drank just made you incredibly drowsy. You could get even more variables by choosing to either target one character or everyone in the region. A bit like messing with them signs, but more broad usage.
Also, you could "intercept scouts", which would basically mean that anyone sending scouts to your region stands a significantly higher chance of never hearing of them again. Though this would be pretty much a defensive act and perhaps not even illegal. Though it could still be risky, if the scout fought you back and dragged you back to his master's dungeon.
Or you could confuse scouts by presenting them with reports of a significant portion of the troops missing.
Your own scouts, of course, would be less prone to such maneuvers, depending on your skill.
Also, you might harass food trades. For the easy jobs, the food would just go missing for some time. For the hard jobs you could make it look like the lord sold it to the enemy or to the black market (if the feature works). As a bonus it would add some plausible deniability to lords actually selling to someone they should not.
Perhaps have some actions where you may manipulate the stats of a region by creating scandals.
Maybe just an option to create scandals to hit the target's honor and prestige?
Sorry for the wall of text. I just love the class and would like to see more use for it, especially with intrigue.
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Infiltrators might be able to kill captains.
Not a bad idea. Should be more risky than attempting to kill men in a unit, which should be more risky than attempting to kill militia.
Perhaps there might be a kind of an "assassination light" button that does not wound you but just makes you lose some or all hours at the turn change. So whatever you thought you had enough time to do you suddenly do not. Someone messed your papers, or the negotiation you entered took longer than expected, or the wine you drank just made you incredibly drowsy. You could get even more variables by choosing to either target one character or everyone in the region. A bit like messing with them signs, but more broad usage.
Ooh, I like that one! That's a very cool idea.
Also, you could "intercept scouts", which would basically mean that anyone sending scouts to your region stands a significantly higher chance of never hearing of them again. Though this would be pretty much a defensive act and perhaps not even illegal. Though it could still be risky, if the scout fought you back and dragged you back to his master's dungeon.
Mm, not sure about this. This sounds almost more like a unit ability, particularly given that scouts would be single men sneaking through the woods (or whatever the local equivalent is), and the odds of one infiltrator sneaking through the woods to find them are pretty low.
Also, you might harass food trades. For the easy jobs, the food would just go missing for some time. For the hard jobs you could make it look like the lord sold it to the enemy or to the black market (if the feature works). As a bonus it would add some plausible deniability to lords actually selling to someone they should not.
I think that ability should go to traders. Give them something useful to do again.
Perhaps have some actions where you may manipulate the stats of a region by creating scandals.
Maybe just an option to create scandals to hit the target's honor and prestige?
Not sure about that. I like the spymaster/intrigue angle, but this sort of thing is so far from the infiltrator's usual purview that I'd hesitate to add it.
Might be something to consider for the diplomat, though.
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How about an ability to shut a market for a full day?
It would be useful if you are assaulting a big city which needs to buy food every day.
Or a city that needs to buy food soon to prevent itself from starving.
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It would be hilarious if high level infils could frame other nobles. That is, just like there is the "it's reported this and this noble was seen escaping from the scene", the same would happen except with the name of a random noble in the same region. Currently you have to be very passive with your infitrators if you do not want to be very obvious that you are an infiltrator, which in my opinion is a bit against the fun of it.
Would also give more motivation to RP trials in realm. I always find those fun.
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Anaris,
I suppose you are right about the trader and diplomat classes as more fitting for some of the suggested features. If skilled traders could forge papers such as to mess with the buy and sell orders, they would definitely be very valuable. I am imagining a group of traders arranging some covert shipments of food such as to move the bushels here and there before having them land to their actual receiver. Or a trader nibbling away a small share of the food - too small really for anyone to notice or for him to get caught, but which would over time add up some.
Diplomats creating scandals would be very fitting too. I think it would be nice if scandals were by nature unpredictable, with potentially very rare and severe consequences. They could backfire too, of course.
But back to infiltrators - have them sabotage gear at tournaments. Or even get some participant too drunk to be able to fight. Naturally this would be very very ignoble and dishonorable.
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I've always wanted a brigand option for BM. How about letting infiltrators attack the defenseless peasantry for a low risk? A mixture of 'kill militia' and/or 'loot tax gold'. Why risk robbing a well guarded bank when you can get the same amount out of 5 or 6 middle class houses who leave their door open?
It could be balanced however the devs want, make it nearly useless for gold (but a way to grind experience), make it as risky as killing militia, or something that may not even be reported until taxday.
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I've always wanted a brigand option for BM. How about letting infiltrators attack the defenseless peasantry for a low risk? A mixture of 'kill militia' and/or 'loot tax gold'. Why risk robbing a well guarded bank when you can get the same amount out of 5 or 6 middle class houses who leave their door open?
It could be balanced however the devs want, make it nearly useless for gold (but a way to grind experience), make it as risky as killing militia, or something that may not even be reported until taxday.
How would brigandage give you experience as an infiltrator? That's just another looting option.
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Damaging equipment of a noble's troops might be a handy low risk activity. Killing one scout/healer in a noble's entourage might be another.
It would be cool if an infiltrator could attempt to break another noble out of an enemy dungeon (probably needing to be in the enemy captial first). It would probably have to be another moderate-to-high risk activity, but I think it would be enjoyable.
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Damaging equipment of a noble's troops might be a handy low risk activity. Killing one scout/healer in a noble's entourage might be another.
It would be cool if an infiltrator could attempt to break another noble out of an enemy dungeon (probably needing to be in the enemy captial first). It would probably have to be another moderate-to-high risk activity, but I think it would be enjoyable.
+1 Good idea
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How would brigandage give you experience as an infiltrator? That's just another looting option.
Stabbing a farmer at night is easier than stabbing a noble. Stealing a tradesman's life savings is easier than stealing from tax-ninjas. They are basically expanded looting options, but I thought that was one of the points of infiltrators?
Making the peasantry a stomping ground for newbie infiltrators will give infiltrators something worthwhile (with low impact) to do while they develop the required stats to actually make an impact.
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Make wounds last longer. I spent one week travelling to a neighbouring realm so I could stab a 70 year old duke, who was also ruler, general and judge. The duke recovered before he lost his city, before a different ruler, general and judge could be elected, and before I could even return home. I wasted more than triple as much time travelling as he did in his coma. Needless to say, I switched back to warrior class after that incident.
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Make wounds last longer. I spent one week travelling to a neighbouring realm so I could stab a 70 year old duke, who was also ruler, general and judge. The duke recovered before he lost his city, before a different ruler, general and judge could be elected, and before I could even return home. I wasted more than triple as much time travelling as he did in his coma. Needless to say, I switched back to warrior class after that incident.
This depends on how deep the wound is. Sometimes old nobles are down for at least a week.
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This depends on how deep the wound is. Sometimes old nobles are down for at least a week.
Or more.
Like, 3 weeks or longer.
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This....is just one of the various issues that the dev team recognizes, and hopes to change, but since there's basically just me working on code right now, I'm afraid it's going to have to wait.
If you've got suggestions for how to rework the way infiltrator training works (and at this point, feel free to consider absolutely anything, including massive changes to the way the class functions, as long as they preserve game balance—bearing in mind that the balance may currently be slanted slightly against infiltrators...), I welcome more ideas.
Make priest/infil a class and you will have 20-30 more priests and infiltrators within a few days, probably on each island.
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Make priest/infil a class and you will have 20-30 more priests and infiltrators within a few days, probably on each island.
See above re: "balance".
There will never be an infiltrator (in the form that they currently exist) that can move like priests and advies.
I've already got to solve the problem of infiltrators taking ship in the middle of the turn.
And I'm tempted to do so by making it an automatic caught-red-handed if they've done anything in the region that turn.
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See above re: "balance".
There will never be an infiltrator (in the form that they currently exist) that can move like priests and advies.
I've already got to solve the problem of infiltrators taking ship in the middle of the turn.
And I'm tempted to do so by making it an automatic caught-red-handed if they've done anything in the region that turn.
Yeah, priest/infiltrator would be both ludicrously dangerous from a mechanics standpoint and a tiny bit difficult to justify from an IC perspective.
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Infiltrators are broken because they do not fit the atmosphere of the game. They are not and cannot be taken seriously. Infiltrators are assassins, they are something people should fear.
No one fears infiltrators, they loathe them because they are annoying. They make your game experience annoying, dull, and tiresome.
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*log in*
"Oh, great I got stabbed again."
"oh goody, an RP from the "bad ass" infiltrator who never actually kills anything and is 'my worst nightmare.'"
"awesome, now I get to wait a week to play my character again."
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They just aren't fun in any way.
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Infiltrators are broken because they do not fit the atmosphere of the game. They are not and cannot be taken seriously. Infiltrators are assassins, they are something people should fear.
No one fears infiltrators, they loathe them because they are annoying. They make your game experience annoying, dull, and tiresome.
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*log in*
"Oh, great I got stabbed again."
"oh goody, an RP from the "bad ass" infiltrator who never actually kills anything and is 'my worst nightmare.'"
"awesome, now I get to wait a week to play my character again."
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They just aren't fun in any way.
I'd look to increase the variety of things they can do so that they can be useful infiltrating rather than just assassinating. So no, I wouldn't say infiltrators are necessarily assassins, despite that being the most famous use of them.
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Disabling is just a bad mechanic in any game. "I want to play the game. Oh you won't let me play the game? I'll take my business elsewhere then."
Getting locked out and unable to play your noble should be an OOC punishment, not something that fellow players can inflict on you.
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I'd look to increase the variety of things they can do so that they can be useful infiltrating rather than just assassinating. So no, I wouldn't say infiltrators are necessarily assassins, despite that being the most famous use of them.
I'd actually agree with this.
Message interception/theft would be a KILLER skill.
And I also agree about the horrible annoyingness of being repeatedly stabbed, especially for an older character.
But infils being able to intercept messages a character receives while in the same region, or maybe have the ability to cash bonds abroad at a penalized rate, would be nice skills that would make sense.
And I was 99% joking about priest/infil. ;)
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Message interception/theft would be a KILLER skill.
But infils being able to intercept messages a character receives while in the same region,
Only thing with that is that the Devs and Tom think that that would just encourage people to stop using IG communication channels and start using OOG communication.
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I know this is kind of out there, but how about being able to buy untraceable mercenaries. Something that works similar to monster scrolls, but an infiltrator can use gold instead of scrolls to pop up a monster/undead horde.
..and don't give me no guff about monsters/undead not wanting gold, cause they damn sure want it when you are in their dungeon.
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Since the class is called 'infiltrator' why not give an ability to temporarily join a realm? or excess closed off group messages? ;)
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I think you just gave the coders a mild seizure with that suggestion :-p
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To everyone suggesting that infils should be able to intercept messages, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that that was on the "will never be added" list. I believe the rationale was such an ability would just drive people to use external messaging programs instead for sensitive messages, which would in turn be conducive to further abuse of external channels. I may be wrong - I frequently seem to be - and I admit that it's a tantalizing idea on the surface.
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To everyone suggesting that infils should be able to intercept messages, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that that was on the "will never be added" list. I believe the rationale was such an ability would just drive people to use external messaging programs instead for sensitive messages, which would in turn be conducive to further abuse of external channels. I may be wrong - I frequently seem to be - and I admit that it's a tantalizing idea on the surface.
correct.
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How about the ability to play the adventurer game? With a set amount of hours, but no fatigue.
That way an infiltrator could train his skill and be useful by slaying monsters(and gain gold).
After all there is historical precedent for nobles adventuring. A.K.A quest of holy grail.
Imitating people's letters(a.k.a their signature), might be interesting. Forging orders seems good as well. That way you can pretend to be someone else.
A fake name might be an idea, that can be uncovered under certain conditions. That way, they ban the wrong name, and if you are banned by the same judge, you have a chance of your old name being discovered.
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To everyone suggesting that infils should be able to intercept messages, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that that was on the "will never be added" list. I believe the rationale was such an ability would just drive people to use external messaging programs instead for sensitive messages, which would in turn be conducive to further abuse of external channels. I may be wrong - I frequently seem to be - and I admit that it's a tantalizing idea on the surface.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mentors already have an ability like this, or used to, don't they? Like if you get enough mentor points you can access random messages elsewhere?
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mentors already have an ability like this, or used to, don't they? Like if you get enough mentor points you can access random messages elsewhere?
Scribe notes not messages.
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What about an an ability to send letters that appear to be sent in someone else's name? The more prestigious the name used, the more chances of failure?
By the way - shouldn't this discussion be under development?
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What about an an ability to send letters that appear to be sent in someone else's name? The more prestigious the name used, the more chances of failure?
By the way - shouldn't this discussion be under development?
Messing with the message system like that won't happen. It will just encourage people to use OOG methods to communicate.
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Ok, here's another message related goodies - make it possible to send anonymous messages with a chance of being detected, of course. These messages would be the kind to enable replying as well. That doesn't in any way encourage OOG communications or otherwise mess with the current message system.
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During a discussion on IRC related to being an infil, we came up with an interesting idea with two things that could be good. Giving infils the ability to pose as other classes and with limited functionality. so a diplo/infil could be ambassador and talk to locals of region. A infil/trader could view market, and broker trades which is a bit much now but when some more work is done with trader class should be fine especially with them not getting the bonus to trade distance. Hero would give chance of death, and maybe ability to move family home, I don't know what hero's get to exactly. Infil/hero would be stuck with keeping hero forever though so if he stops being a hero he would be stuck with hero is my thought. Infil/Cavalier...is an interesting character to have as its a character living two lives that are opposites but I don't know what limited functionality they would get, no looting and no civ work to fit with necessity of not letting people see through your lie with ease. Infil/Mentor, I would not be against getting full mentor class, since helping people learn the game is of high importance and the more people doing it, the better.
Infils get much more plausible deniability and a bit more to do when they can't be off attacking people. Obviously a lot of work to do this, but I think there is a lot of benefit to it too. (Plausible deniability has definitely been a major issue IMO, especially when anybody with a secondary class is automatically cleared right now.)
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In an effort to increase the infiltrators functionality in a believable way, perhaps he could be able to destroy a targets paraphernalia. Burning down siege engines, defacing banners and killing scouts or healers could be very handy in certain situations, yet not in violation of verisimilitude.
Another option, which I'm surprised isn't already implemented (I believe it was at one time), is the ability to burn down food stores. With options to attack most other aspects of regional 'economy' it's a bit incongruous that this ability is left out.
Expanding on food, infiltrators could perhaps be given tools to hinder trading as well. This could be done in a number of imaginative ways, one of which would be to disable a regions ability to trade for a turn or more. In order to keep this logical, the infiltrator could be required to have an entourage of troops with him in order to do this. With the infiltrators shady nature, as well as an armed force at his command, it makes sense that only an infiltrator and no one else would be able to do this. It would also be very handy -- sending an infiltrator along with a main invasion force would restrict the enemies ability to drain food out of a region the moments before it's capture.
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Two things:
One, anything that makes the message system unreliable/suspect is bad for the game. Undermining the trust in the message system is an overall negative thing, regardless of what it purportedly adds to the infil game.
Two: When you are brainstorming infil ideas, please remember that the philosophy on infiltrators is moving *away* from the infil-as-ninja camp, and towards the infil-as-spymaster.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mentors already have an ability like this, or used to, don't they? Like if you get enough mentor points you can access random messages elsewhere?
Scribe notes and tax settings only, not messages.
Plus, Mentors are presently in total disarray, and need reworking from the ground up.
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Two things:
One, anything that makes the message system unreliable/suspect is bad for the game. Undermining the trust in the message system is an overall negative thing, regardless of what it purportedly adds to the infil game.
Two: When you are brainstorming infil ideas, please remember that the philosophy on infiltrators is moving *away* from the infil-as-ninja camp, and towards the infil-as-spymaster.
Fake names, fake classes, sabotage buildings-sabotaging a granary would be really bad in wintertime. Temporarily disabling a building would have a much higher chance of success, then destroying one outright.
Unfortunately, not being able to read other's messages severely limits the spymaster potential, as that is what spy's do-find out information. What else is there? A lot of the information is public to nobles, other than troop movements.
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How about destroying paraphernalia? I'm thinking about siege engines in particular here. Not far fetched at all for the enemy to infiltrate the besieger's camp at night and try to light that recently completed siege tower on fire...
Beyond that, no reason healers, scouts and banners couldn't also be targeted.
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What about stealing info from characters? Things like sneaking into a marshal's tent and stealing his reports on the army's combat strength.
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Two things:
One, anything that makes the message system unreliable/suspect is bad for the game. Undermining the trust in the message system is an overall negative thing, regardless of what it purportedly adds to the infil game.
Two: When you are brainstorming infil ideas, please remember that the philosophy on infiltrators is moving *away* from the infil-as-ninja camp, and towards the infil-as-spymaster.
Let infils view secret society guildhouses in regions they are in.
Or at least let them see a number of how many such guildhouses exist.
Let infiltrators message all other infiltrators on the continent.
Let infiltrators cash bonds anywhere.
Let infiltrators see marshal settings.
Let infiltrators see standing orders.
Let infiltrators "hire informants" so they can see messages/events that are sent to everyone in a region for the next few days (so they'd get notices about travel in the area, and receive messages sent to "everyone in..." and get lords' reports, etc).
Just some ideas.
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Let infils view secret society guildhouses in regions they are in.
If that gets implemented, there will hardly be such a thing as secret societies, just guilds with select membership. Realms will just have infils go from region to region to seek out societies and before long none of them will be secret anymore.
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If that gets implemented, there will hardly be such a thing as secret societies, just guilds with select membership. Realms will just have infils go from region to region to seek out societies and before long none of them will be secret anymore.
True.
Maybe just let them view the number of such guildhouses in a region, not their names. Or give them an option to snoop around for secret societies and, if they find one, to request membership. Maybe have some kind of chance of false-positive (I dunno, have like a random secret-society name generator that gives names for fake organizations).
This is sounding increasingly elaborate to code.
But I think a minimum of allowing them to see IF a secret society is present/how many (but not give them a name) would be fair. Maybe even give them an option to send a message to the leaders of said secret society without being a member?
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I like the idea of infiltrators being able to detect secret societies. Right now, if there is a secret society that was founded by a Lord who was later banished for treason, there is no way to detect and destroy it, and ways to do so in a balanced manner have been on my list to figure out for some time now.
But just see them as they pass through? Hell, no! They need to put some work into it! Preferably have some risk, too—after all, if you're poking around in seedy places for long enough, chances are someone's going to want to break your legs. Or your face. Or something else important.
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Let infiltrators message all other infiltrators on the continent.
Let infiltrators cash bonds anywhere.
I like your other suggestions, but neither of these make a lot of sense.
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I've liked the idea of infiltrators as spymasters since it was first suggested quite a long time ago. To make a change to that sort of role, rather than the ninja-type, I've always thought that they'd need their own class of recruitable NPCs - spies or agents - who would take over most of their current direct actions in the field.
When a spymaster/infiltrator wants to get something done, they'd then have to send out an agent to do it for them. For balance, the agents would probably have to be fairly expensive to maintain and also gain experience like captains do. The more experienced an agent, the more likely they are to succeed. But if one fails in a mission and gets killed the infiltrator has to train another one up from scratch by sending them on basic missions to gain experience before they'd be able to stand a chance of succeeding at anything more difficult. That would introduce a risk factor into deciding who to send on what mission, and also ensure that the spymaster doesn't become over-powered since the NPC agents would probably be killed and need to be replaced with rookies fairly regularly.
I don't really see how changing the infiltrator into a spymaster could work without doing something like that, because a spymaster naturally needs someone to do their dirty work for them.
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I've liked the idea of infiltrators as spymasters since it was first suggested quite a long time ago. To make a change to that sort of role, rather than the ninja-type, I've always thought that they'd need their own class of recruitable NPCs - spies or agents - who would take over most of their current direct actions in the field.
When a spymaster/infiltrator wants to get something done, they'd then have to send out an agent to do it for them. For balance, the agents would probably have to be fairly expensive to maintain and also gain experience like captains do. The more experienced an agent, the more likely they are to succeed. But if one fails in a mission and gets killed the infiltrator has to train another one up from scratch by sending them on basic missions to gain experience before they'd be able to stand a chance of succeeding at anything more difficult. That would introduce a risk factor into deciding who to send on what mission, and also ensure that the spymaster doesn't become over-powered since the NPC agents would probably be killed and need to be replaced with rookies fairly regularly.
I don't really see how changing the infiltrator into a spymaster could work without doing something like that, because a spymaster naturally needs someone to do their dirty work for them.
Now that's the kind of out-of-the-box thinking I'm looking for!
No idea if anything like this is remotely feasible yet, but I definitely like the concept.
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If infiltrators are to be turned into spymasters, perhaps the whole idea of assassinations should be taken out completely? As long as it stays in, they'll still be considered ninja's in some respect.
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Let infiltrators cash bonds anywhere.
I like your other suggestions, but neither of these make a lot of sense.
This one actually does make some sense. Infiltrators know things like the black market. Bonds could be sold/traded on the black market, but at a reduced rate, perhaps depending on the diplomatic relations between the two realms. The worse the relations, the lower the conversion rate (you're actually fencing the bonds at a "pennies on the dollar" rate), and the higher the risk. Something like this:
| Relation | Rate |
| Federation | 90% |
| Alliance | 80% |
| Neutral | 60% |
| War | 40% |
| Hatred | 20% |
So, you *could* cash your bonds in a a city with whom you're at war, but you'd have to sell 100 bonds to get that 20 gold you need to pay your men. Expensive, but prohibitive.
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This one actually does make some sense. Infiltrators know things like the black market. Bonds could be sold/traded on the black market, but at a reduced rate, perhaps depending on the diplomatic relations between the two realms. The worse the relations, the lower the conversion rate (you're actually fencing the bonds at a "pennies on the dollar" rate), and the higher the risk. Something like this:
| Relation | Rate |
| Federation | 90% |
| Alliance | 80% |
| Neutral | 60% |
| War | 40% |
| Hatred | 20% |
So, you *could* cash your bonds in a a city with whom you're at war, but you'd have to sell 100 bonds to get that 20 gold you need to pay your men. Expensive, but prohibitive.
That makes a lot more sense than simply cashing bonds outside the realm. :)
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Assassinations need to stay in the game in one form or another. Throughout history, assassinations have been a widely used political tool. The list of European rulers assassinated during the Middle Ages is quite long, so why should BM be any different?
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Assassinations need to stay in the game in one form or another. Throughout history, assassinations have been a widely used political tool. The list of European rulers assassinated during the Middle Ages is quite long, so why should BM be any different?
Probably because assassinations never seem to actually remove someone from their positions like they do in real life. Or, perhaps for the reason I stated before, in that people will still see them as ninjas. Or because an assassination deprives people from playing the game, while spymasters do not. Or, because infiltrators are no longer invisible.
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How about this?
Infiltrators can hire hitmen for gold. The more gold spent the better the hitman(there's your goldsink).
Since the hitmen are the ones doing the job there is no risk in the infiltrator getting caught(there's your low risk infiltrator option).
If the person assassinated has a bounty the hitman gets it.( So people will still want to stab in person)
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How about this?
Infiltrators can hire hitmen for gold. The more gold spent the better the hitman(there's your goldsink).
Since the hitmen are the ones doing the job there is no risk in the infiltrator getting caught(there's your low risk infiltrator option).
Well, if NPC assassins were to be implemented, there should be a chance of tracing them back to their employers. For instance, King Johnny is attacked by an NPC assassin, but the attempt fails and the assassin is apprehended. Under intense torture, the assassin reveals that he was hired by King Jimmy.
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I really don't think we need more assassins.
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Not more, per se. Different kind. But medieval politics need hidden daggers.
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Not more, per se. Different kind. But medieval politics need hidden daggers.
Just an assertion with no evidence.
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Assassinations are just another way to increase position turnover and political intrigue. So yes, we do need more of them.
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Just an assertion with no evidence.
Evidence of what? Are you saying there's no evidence that assassination was widely used throughout history?
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I agree that assassination needs to stay, in one form or another, and whatever changes to the infiltrator class I end up doing, you can be sure that assassination will be accounted for somewhere. (After all, before the infiltrator class existed, rulers had an one-button option to assassinate other nobles—or maybe just other council members—for a fee...)
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I agree that assassination needs to stay, in one form or another, and whatever changes to the infiltrator class I end up doing, you can be sure that assassination will be accounted for somewhere. (After all, before the infiltrator class existed, rulers had an one-button option to assassinate other nobles—or maybe just other council members—for a fee...)
I believe it was just council members.
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That makes a lot more sense than simply cashing bonds outside the realm. :)
That was along the lines of what I was thinking.
I was just putting lots of base-level ideas out there.
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Rulers can't still attempt to assassinate council members? Tyrants and Monarchs should still have that option, else how do they manipulate the nobility?
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Rulers can't still attempt to assassinate council members? Tyrants and Monarchs should still have that option, else how do they manipulate the nobility?
By actually using their influence and talking to people.
But this is a great idea. Give rulers back the old assassinate option, it could prove pretty hilarious. Imagine a King Kepler and his Rival Relpek are in a region alone, and King Evilstani's spies report this. King Evilstani has Kepler assassinated, and it looks like Relpek did it.
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I would think an infiltrator/spymaster would have limited range, such as only in regions he's in or bordering regions. I do like the idea of spymasters not having to be directly in a region to do something, for reasons of deniability, but it goes against the grain of many other character actions. Perhaps allowing missions by npc agents in other regions, but with increasing risk based on distance from spymaster's location.
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I would think an infiltrator/spymaster would have limited range, such as only in regions he's in or bordering regions. I do like the idea of spymasters not having to be directly in a region to do something, for reasons of deniability, but it goes against the grain of many other character actions. Perhaps allowing missions by npc agents in other regions, but with increasing risk based on distance from spymaster's location.
hm.
Makes me think of an interesting infl vs. infil skill: "recruit rival spy." The chance to make an agent go turncoat could either be done as a simple "you gain that NPC," or maybe just you can semi-control that NPC or influence success rate or something... again, would seem like it'd be hard to code.
This broad idea seems better and better to me.
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Joy, we're over-complicating this as usually happens.
What is going on right now is feature-creep. Please, do not come up with overly complex ideas that would be a pain to code. That's just going to increase the workload unbearably for small gains.
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I agree with you, but would note this isn't a fully-fledged feature request thread either. Perhaps someone should summarize the proposed points in a clearly laid out way and distinguish what would be a basic implementation versus additional, down the road improvements? The infiltrator class will probably need overhauled much like the mentor one, the way this conversation is going. The name infiltrator may not even be appropriate anymore.
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I agree with you, but would note this isn't a fully-fledged feature request thread either. Perhaps someone should summarize the proposed points in a clearly laid out way and distinguish what would be a basic implementation versus additional, down the road improvements? The infiltrator class will probably need overhauled much like the mentor one, the way this conversation is going. The name infiltrator may not even be appropriate anymore.
That would be good. Basic implementation should always be the first goal, advanced stuff comes in later once you have the base system working.
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Joy, we're over-complicating this as usually happens.
What is going on right now is feature-creep. Please, do not come up with overly complex ideas that would be a pain to code. That's just going to increase the workload unbearably for small gains.
No, please do not be afraid of this here.
This is a brainstorming thread, and though you should not expect more than a small fraction of what appears here to ever make it to production, I am gleaning useful ideas out of it. Having other people work through the implications of various of these scenarios is helpful to me, especially right now, when it's very hot, which leaves me with significantly less usable brain than usual.
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Here's a brainstorm idea for mechanics: create NPC spies with the same mechanics as Sages. They are few and far between, move slowly and randomly between regions. To recruit a spy, you must be in the same region as he is. If you succesfully recruit him, you can then send him orders from wherever you are, but he can only act in the region he is currently located. You can lose a spy if he receives a larger offer from a different spymaster.
e.g.., a spymaster from Keplerstan poses as an ambassador to travel to Evilstan. While travelling, he spends hours to search for spies and finds two: James who lives in the Evilstani capital, and Mata who roams the border between Keplerstan and Evilstan. Later, while Evilstan prepares for war, a spymaster from Evilstan tries to find all spies to avoid Keplerian interference. He finds James and offers him a larger sum, taking him under his command. However he never finds Mata. Now Kepler has a spy on the borderlands; when Evilstani nobles find themselves in the same region as Mata they run risks of being attacked.
While I don't know the code, it seems the mechanic for spies could use the same design as sages. Instead of having the infiltration options towards the nobles in their regions, spymasters would have the same options but towards nobles in the regions where their spies are. All that remains would be to handle which spies works for whom.
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I like vonGenf's format.
HEre are things I think spies, if implemented as vonGenf proposes, should be able to do:
1. Attack specific, targeted nobles
2. Be bribed to go turncoat
3. Sabotage infrastructure, roads, etc
4. Steal gold
5. Burn food supplies
6. Scout the region they are in
7. Incite peasant unrest
8. Pass on messages sent to "everyone in region" or game updates like that
9. Reduce estate efficiency
10. Rob temples/guildhouses
11. Be given a general, "attack some random noble" order: can't choose a target, but higher chance of success maybe
12. If captured, reveal like a mini-torture report (maybe just 5-10 messages) of the character's messages (they wouldn't know everything that the character would know if tortured, but they might know something)
13. Investigate secret societies
14. Carry out investigations similar to ruler secret police actions
Obviously many of these would require gold, or have various risks of arrest, or even a risk of the spy going turncoat (I think it would be hilarious, for example, if the "rob a temple" option had a small random chance of the spy having a crisis of conscience and leaving your service to join the priesthood).
Furthermore, I think that, if a spy is caught and confesses who his boss is, that should still provide grounds for a ban for the spymaster. Though presumably this would greatly lower the frequency of infiltrator executions and such, which would then increase the number of infils I expect.
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My buddy and I were talking about this and came up with an idea we found interesting, which would make infiltrators less lone rangers, and encourage the teamwork aspect of the game:
Make infiltrator a main class, and split it off into two sub classes:
Assassin/Saboteur: Has access to the traditional infiltrator abilities and specializes in them. Works pretty much like your normal infiltrator today. In the interest of not having an infiltrator main class that does nothing, just make the Assassin/Saboteur more effective than a plain infiltrator. Allow the Infiltrator to lead troops, but don't allow the Assassin/Saboteur subclass to lead troops.
Spymaster: Sacrifices the normal infiltrator actions in favor of appearing to be a diplomat, and having access to a diplomat's abilities (save for drafting treaties), and give them a series of new options that allow infiltrators and assassin/saboteurs to be more effective. Let them spend time and gold to allow for infil actions to have a higher chance of success or escape by bribing officials to leave doors unlocked, or arranging for guards not to be present. This gets interesting, because it applies to a region, not a person. So say you arrange for guards not be around and make escapes easier... Well now your enemy's assassin/saboteur waltzes up, stabs you and escapes without a hitch because you arranged for the guards not to be present.
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Due to an initial misreading of vellos's mini-torture report idea, I wondered, what about a reverse torture report? A somewhat less risky than stabbing infiltration into a noble's camp to steal 5-10 messages of theirs.
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Due to an initial misreading of vellos's mini-torture report idea, I wondered, what about a reverse torture report? A somewhat less risky than stabbing infiltration into a noble's camp to steal 5-10 messages of theirs.
Been proposed, and rejected, I believe, due to worries that players will take communication OOG even more.
At least with a mini-torture type arrangement you at least have the ability to determine if your messages will be leaked.
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Why not go with the spymaster idea and have them more shadowy/noblish?
What I mean by that is have them as nobles that *pose* as nobility. They could have a "unit" in the form of a spy ring. They would have to recruit them all the same, hide them, feed them, clothe them just like a normal noble.
How this new unit would work is that they are more like paraphernalia than an actual fighting unit. The Infiltrator may only be able to afford to keep 3-5 of these men (could have a new skill or something to determine how many he could have). Then he could use them each turn, as scouts or saboteurs. Scouts could move further than normal scouts, due to their higher pay and skill level, and wouldn't cost the spymaster hours. Others in the Unit could be charged with being Saboteur, maybe destroying a units provisions, incapacitating a captain, kidnapping a noble (move him to a different region and have his unit have to "catch up" costing him turns.)
The infiltrator would have to be in the same region as the saboteurs targets, because he needs to set up a base of operations and coordinate the attack.
Infiltrators wouldn't have the ability to fight, unless they got rid of their expensive spy unit and got themselves a new one. They also couldn't use paraphernalia full stop while they were a Infiltrator. If their spies get wounded then they have to hide and rest. That could be like the dig in function and could take quite a few hours.
Im pretty out of it right now, but if anyone wants to know how i think this class will work, and where i think you can fit in the different changes to make less work for the coders then please ask. Also this does have historical precedence, and would make Infiltrators much more fun and useful, as saboteurs and spys, with the added bonus of less incapacitation for the victims. Dont know how the skill leveling up would work but there would be a way.
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Someone mentioned wandering NPC spies. What if they could tell infiltrators rumors about the locations of nobles with sufficiently high bounties on their heads? There would be a few hitches to help balance it - the potential target could move by the time the infiltrator got there, or the spy could give a vague direction - accurate only to, say, the Duchy level, or giving a region in the general vicinity - probably adjacent - of where the noble actually is.
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The problem i see with Spy paraphernalia is that the problem it poses with the balance of the whole game, you will need to have buildings which Lords will have to build and they have to be priced appropriately, and i dont see many lords wanting to build them except maybe for capital city margraves, there's also the issue of limited slots for buildings..
maybe if it was a different system than paraphernalia, but not a direct extension imo
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To me, the limited building slots etc is a good thing with my idea.
It would be a different type of unit, and with my idea they would be worth it. Also if you wanted to play as that class you could petition a lord to build the building for you, and its up to what the realm deems worthy. If they believe another infantry building is what they need then thats what they would build, however if they wanted the spymaster type skills like long range scouting and sabotage, taking out key units and people, then they would invest a little money in a building for their units.
Just because a lord wouldnt wanna build it, doesnt mean the idea is bad. Its just about priorities. For me, a weaker realm could use the bonus of such a spymaster, considering they dont need to move to far to be useful, they provide an amazing service, but 2 people could do what one spymaster could do in terms of scouting, and sabotage doesnt win a war anyway.
Also it gives weaker spymaster nobles the ability to level their skill by providing army scouting's to their realm, and sabotaging weaker nobles in battle.
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I just want to address that many of these are sounding heavy to code and to implement in any timely manner. Though of course worth discussing. How likely are some of these to happen.
I personally think they are fine the way they are, beside the heavy training needed, though I do wish they could be invisible again. Possible what would be cool to see is the chance of successfully performing actions would be cool to see next to them.
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Hmm, has anyone considered entangling infiltrators and adventurers more? All this talk of wandering NPC's and such, while there are almost invisible wandering PC all over. A true spymaster could be ran with advys already, but maybe add some benefit to infiltrators dealing with advys to send the idea home?
Say, an infiltator/spymaster can directly give gold to adventurers. Maybe give experience for infiltrators attacking advys regardless of allegiance. Maybe even give infiltrators private dungeons for advys (same mechanic as Judge's dungeon but invisible). The infiltrator is meant to do things ignoble, give them more leverage with those who aren't nobles.
It could boost the infiltrator game and the adventurer game.
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I think if we want to give a bit of life on the infiltrator class without too much coding(?), maybe the best way would be to give ALL infiltrator actions a 'leverage' as have the adventurers: From -Maximum stealth, Minimum risk- to -Very Aggressive, Maximum risk-
This way the infiltrators would begin to work without too much training... of course as less risk, less chances of success... but less chances to be caught too!
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Most Infiltrator options already have a low, medium, high risk choice IIRC.
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I really liked the idea of the Infiltrator as Spymaster by utilizing AGENTS.
The infiltrator has to personally RECRUIT agents in the region he wants them to operate in. This agent has to be PAID for his services. Maybe the agent has a speciality, I.e. snooping on diplomatic documents, reporting granary levels, etc.
Assassination attempts could still be possible, but it's done via an agent. If the agent is caught, the infiltrator loses access to the agent, with maybe a rescue attempt being possible.
There could also be the option for the job being too important to leave to an agent, he's got to do it himself. But if he gets caught, then it's his ass.
Agents can be trained, have skills/experience, etc. Maybe adventurers can even be recruited as agents?