BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: Disturbedyang on June 22, 2014, 02:44:42 PM
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This is something rather funny. Now Swordfell wants to join in the fight, against the underdog. Does any of you leaders in this continent actually tries to make it fun for anyone in this continent? It is becoming like a dead rubber, thanks to all you leaders here. I am sorry that it is harsh, but it is.
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I'm sorry that your favourite tyrants are losing, and now look like they might lose in the end. It's a real shame.
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Who's fighting who? Anyone care to post a lineup?
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I think they are referring to the Barca, D'Hara, Fissoa and now Swordfell against Luria Nova and Asylon.
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I'm sorry that your favourite tyrants are losing, and now look like they might lose in the end. It's a real shame.
lolz, far from that. I don't care about them. I care about the continent. I think you took this game too seriously, that is why it is boring.
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I'm sorry. Is there an appropriate amount of 'lulz' that I should be aiming for? I must have missed the warning that I was taking the game too seriously and it was negatively affecting the fun factor.
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Most people's problem isn't that they take the game too seriously, but themselves.
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I care about the continent. I think you took this game too seriously, that is why it is boring.
Judging by how miffed as a player you are, you must be the one taking it a bit too seriously. ;)
If Luria gets beaten it won't reduce the average amount of fun on the continent. :)
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We in Asylon would prefer a good fight to all this sneaking around! 8)
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If swordfell joins the war on the side of dhara and such, then I'm disappointed in the leadership of that realm.
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If swordfell joins the war on the side of dhara and such, then I'm disappointed in the leadership of that realm.
Better than what they are doing now. A realm with the name Sword in it and it hasn't had a single war.
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Wait, wait, wait. Luria Nova is an underdog? Since when? Since having almost double nobles than any other realm on Dwilight?
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I'm sorry. Is there an appropriate amount of 'lulz' that I should be aiming for? I must have missed the warning that I was taking the game too seriously and it was negatively affecting the fun factor.
Kinda seems like I am talking to a kid and I will stop at that. :) Enjoy your game kiddo.
Judging by how miffed as a player you are, you must be the one taking it a bit too seriously. ;)
If Luria gets beaten it won't reduce the average amount of fun on the continent. :)
I think once again, you got me wrong. Luria beaten or not, i do not really care. Neither is Asylon. I was too short a period in both realms before all this happened. But the whole continent as a whole. Even on a winning side, are you actually really enjoying the game? No one in the continent is trying to make it more interesting or make it more controversial. Everyone is trying to go for the best path that you won't lose.
Yes, we have been through that discussion numerous times. But I can't help but tell it here again. Please leaders, especially of Morek and Astrum. Please make this continent a little bit more fun. I am close to quitting this continent, not that any of you really give a damn anyway by the kind of response i actually got.
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Kinda seems like I am talking to a kid and I will stop at that. :) Enjoy your game kiddo.
Snrk.
How do you know that what you're proposing wouldn't make it more boring for everyone else, and only interesting for you? I'm quite enjoying how things are going and would actually love a period of peace on Dwilight.
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Morek&Astrums soul intention is to rule all of Dwilight. If that means boring all other realms to death as a legitimate tactic I'm sure they wouldn't be above using it to win BM. ;)
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I think once again, you got me wrong. Luria beaten or not, i do not really care. Neither is Asylon. I was too short a period in both realms before all this happened. But the whole continent as a whole. Even on a winning side, are you actually really enjoying the game?
Actually I do. This game rocks. I've only started playing less than two months ago so I'm not spoiled by grognard syndrome yet. :)
No one in the continent is trying to make it more interesting or make it more controversial. Everyone is trying to go for the best path that you won't lose.
I guess I see what you mean.
But suggesting that players should intentionally make poor decisions is not an effective solution. The only way to change this situation is to change the rules.
And I think DMs will come up with new mechanics like realm attrition to add a drop of entropy into the mix. Monster invasion and ice age are a good start anyway.
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Snrk.
How do you know that what you're proposing wouldn't make it more boring for everyone else, and only interesting for you? I'm quite enjoying how things are going and would actually love a period of peace on Dwilight.
Yes, you are right. Hence I am bringing up this topic. I always believe it is a collective effort to make it fun for everyone, yet the rulers seem to have the final say, and this is what i am trying to bring up. That is also why I wanna know what those in the 'winning' realms are feeling, though there are no such thing as winning in BM, only having fun. What realm are you in? If it is true that your realm is fun, i am more than glad to head over there.
Actually I do. This game rocks. I've only started playing less than two months ago so I'm not spoiled by grognard syndrome yet. :)I guess I see what you mean.
But suggesting that players should intentionally make poor decisions is not an effective solution. The only way to change this situation is to change the rules.
And I think DMs will come up with new mechanics like realm attrition to add a drop of entropy into the mix. Monster invasion and ice age are a good start anyway.
Yes, you are right again. I am not exactly suggesting poor decisions. But in a way collective and the will as well as effort to try to make it fun for everyone. I think to expect the mods to help out is not a good idea. It has been discussed previously. It is still up to us to make it fun for all of us. Hence, I am hoping that the rulers can somehow among themselves always make their best effort to make the game and relations more dynamic. Any suggestions would be lovely, and i have more than a dozen if you guys are interested to listen or consider :)
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If you have suggestions for ways to make things better, then by all means suggest them. But when you do, remember that just because you suggest something does not in any way obligate people to use/implement your suggestions.
Also, make sure that when you suggest things, that the suggestions allow people to act in accordance with their character's RP and motivations. Too many times people make suggestions that would require characters to act against their entire concept and ongoing RP. Things like "Astrum should ally with Asylon, then betray Morek and attack them! That would roxxorz!" are just ridiculously unlikely, and so disjointed that it would piss off way more people than would think it was fun. (This should be self-evident, as if that many people thought it would be fun, then they would already have done it.)
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Ugh, damn hippies :P
Look, I understand that being on the receiving end of a beatdown is not the most enjoyable way to spend your time, but then again, this is a game about medieval politics and warfare, not a tea party. Compare it to playing a board game, there's always going to be losers and winners, but that doesn't mean playing the game isn't fun.
And to be honest, when I see someone complain about 'fun' and 'enjoying' it's almost always someone from a realm that's being beaten up. Like I said, stop taking yourselves so seriously all the time, and you'll find you'll enjoy this game a lot better, even if you're currently being crushed like an ant.
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And I think DMs will come up with new mechanics like realm attrition to add a drop of entropy into the mix.
There are really no GMs/DMs active in the game. We have a dev team, but the dev team has a hands-off policy. We do not intervene in the game in any way. If the players want something to happen, then they have to make it happen on their own.
There are two notable exceptions:
1) On very rare occasions, the dev team has intervened to implement some extensive game-wide change, such as the recent partial freezing of islands, and the Dark Tidings that reshaped the EC map about ... 8 1/2 years ago. (You can search for that on the wiki, if you're interested.)
2) BT has had regular monster invasions, the last several of which have been led by volunteer GMs.
But in any case, the dev team does not intervene to due to any political situations or IC events, or to shape the development of events or realms.
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If you have suggestions for ways to make things better, then by all means suggest them. But when you do, remember that just because you suggest something does not in any way obligate people to use/implement your suggestions.
Also, make sure that when you suggest things, that the suggestions allow people to act in accordance with their character's RP and motivations. Too many times people make suggestions that would require characters to act against their entire concept and ongoing RP. Things like "Astrum should ally with Asylon, then betray Morek and attack them! That would roxxorz!" are just ridiculously unlikely, and so disjointed that it would piss off way more people than would think it was fun. (This should be self-evident, as if that many people thought it would be fun, then they would already have done it.)
That is the thing, you already took off all the options, sort of. Being crazy and making weird decisions are what made it fun. I will stop debating with you about that. I already proved my point in Beluaterra, I will not say this here again.
Ugh, damn hippies :P
Look, I understand that being on the receiving end of a beatdown is not the most enjoyable way to spend your time, but then again, this is a game about medieval politics and warfare, not a tea party. Compare it to playing a board game, there's always going to be losers and winners, but that doesn't mean playing the game isn't fun.
And to be honest, when I see someone complain about 'fun' and 'enjoying' it's almost always someone from a realm that's being beaten up. Like I said, stop taking yourselves so seriously all the time, and you'll find you'll enjoy this game a lot better, even if you're currently being crushed like an ant.
And you see, you are not reading my posts. I enjoy playing for the underdogs and i have always joined the underdogs. That is more fun for me and i NEVER complained about that. I will also stop explaining to you. Read my previous posts.
It seems that this forum is full of flamers who just wants to go out and flame others like kids instead of contributing. Maybe i should stop coming here. You guys enjoy being lonely anyway. :p
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That is the thing, you already took off all the options, sort of. Being crazy and making weird decisions are what made it fun.
So the only way that the game can be fun for you is if people make decisions that break their character's RP and motivations, and make absolutely no sense within the context of the game itself?
Doing crazy and weird things is one way for some people to have fun. I suggest that if that's your style, that you either look for a realm that does those kinds of things, or find a bunch of similar-minded people and make a realm that does that. Some number of realms have had success with that. Expecting everyone to play that way on a regular basis? Probably not going to happen.
It seems that this forum is full of flamers who just wants to go out and flame others like kids instead of contributing.
I asked you for your suggestions. If you instead refuse to provide them, and just complain about non-existent flames ... well, that's your choice.
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Dwilight is still fun.
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Dwilight is still fun.
Quoted for truth.
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No one in the continent is trying to make it more interesting or make it more controversial. Everyone is trying to go for the best path that you won't lose.
Yes, we have been through that discussion numerous times. But I can't help but tell it here again. Please leaders, especially of Morek and Astrum. Please make this continent a little bit more fun. I am close to quitting this continent, not that any of you really give a damn anyway by the kind of response i actually got.
Enoch is still kicking around, so you can't say no one is trying. He's lost the rulership of Swordfell and been banned, precisely for going against the safe and easy (boring) path, but I was able to inject a little bit of drama into an otherwise mute Swordfell.
Making an interesting character requires readiness to accept failure. Only dire struggle is really interesting, and in a game where people don't want to let go of their sandcastles.. they miss out because they aren't willing to take risk. Makes me sad for them, but doesn't mean I can't have fun. Maybe it'll rub off on someone eventually.
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To reply on OP:
First, Luria is hardly the underdog. Barca got control of a duchy of Luria's that was starved. In the mean time, Luria has jumped to 62, although now its down to 50. Sure its fighting an alliance of 3 realms, but none of those realms have massive armies whereas Luria does. They have a new general who doesn't seem to be making the best decisions (most recently attacking a region with the defenders having twice your combat strength) but you can't call a realm an underdog because of poor leadership.
Second, if Swordfell wanted to join the war to make the easiest win for them, its hard to say that attacking Luria is obviously the best decision considering Luria has a much larger army and is right next to them. The Southern League is not right next to Swordfell so they cant help a ton for defending Swordfell nor would they be able to attack them much if Swordfell sided with Luria.
Lastly, Swordfell hasn't done anything but get a new ruler thus far so it seems odd to say they sided with the Southern League all of a sudden.
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I asked you for your suggestions. If you instead refuse to provide them, and just complain about non-existent flames ... well, that's your choice.
Okay, lets turn it around. How do you suggest making it more fun? Or rather what are you doing in-game now to make it more fun? I would like to listen to the other side of the story.
Enoch is still kicking around, so you can't say no one is trying. He's lost the rulership of Swordfell and been banned, precisely for going against the safe and easy (boring) path, but I was able to inject a little bit of drama into an otherwise mute Swordfell.
Yeah, i did notice that. It was a good one, but notice how the people reacted to it. As of continent wide? Like for instance, instead of being angry at Swordfell, Astrum and Morek doesn't seem to be doing anything. Is that really OOC or IC you might ask? I did try to do a few things when i was in Morek some time ago, and lets just say i felt being treated unfairly almost OOCly.
First, Luria is hardly the underdog.
That, is mostly IC info that i can't disclose here. But you will be surprised.
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Okay, lets turn it around. How do you suggest making it more fun? Or rather what are you doing in-game now to make it more fun? I would like to listen to the other side of the story.
He is not in Dwilight.
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Okay, lets turn it around. How do you suggest making it more fun? Or rather what are you doing in-game now to make it more fun? I would like to listen to the other side of the story.
Uh-uh. You're the one who complained that it was a problem. That means you don't get to insist that other people make suggestions until you've made some decent ones yourself, or come straight out and admitted that you don't have a clue what would improve things.
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I still think calling Luria Nova an underdog is laughable. At the start of this war, they had 4 huge duchies, more members in their realm than in any other realm - almost double the average number of members, and a massive army. They were fighting the Southern League... which consisted of a realm with no regions (Barca), a realm with a middling, slow-to-respond army (Fissoa), and a realm that couldn't find its ass with both hands without committee approval first (D'hara).
Three tiny midgets took on a giant, but that doesn't make the giant an underdog.
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Uh-uh. You're the one who complained that it was a problem. That means you don't get to insist that other people make suggestions until you've made some decent ones yourself, or come straight out and admitted that you don't have a clue what would improve things.
I don't have a clue what would improve things. There you go. That is the point of this thread. Instead, i was flamed while some insisted it is non-existent.
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I don't think your problem is with players and their reactions. It's rather how game mechanics work.
My personal concern is that once realms get really big they enter stagnation which in real world is broken by realm's fracturing but in BM this stagnation probably might just go on for years.
If there was some incentive to run smaller realms or if huge realms were really hard to manage and not feasible, we'd probably see more dynamic conflict.
Dwilight actually seems very dynamic and fun right now because of all the land grabs, shifting alliances and lots of rogue land to conquer. On the other hand, my second character is on Atamara and that place is boring as hell.
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I still have my hopes for AT. Big things may be in the making.
As for Dwilight, I don't have a character there right now. If I did have a character in an SA state, I would advocate for militant expansion. Aggressive, militant expansion. Forced change of all realms to theocratic government. Wipe out any realm that harbored a Dishman.
For a character in another realm, I really don't know. I am somewhat stale on current politics.
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I don't think your problem is with players and their reactions. It's rather how game mechanics work.
My personal concern is that once realms get really big they enter stagnation which in real world is broken by realm's fracturing but in BM this stagnation probably might just go on for years.
If there was some incentive to run smaller realms or if huge realms were really hard to manage and not feasible, we'd probably see more dynamic conflict.
Dwilight actually seems very dynamic and fun right now because of all the land grabs, shifting alliances and lots of rogue land to conquer. On the other hand, my second character is on Atamara and that place is boring as hell.
That sounds about right. Big realms have to do the extra to make things happen because of that. Can this be implemented somehow though? The distance from the capital helps to a certain extend but it is not good enough. What about making most of the regions needing someone to tend to its estates to 'maintain' it? Otherwise the control will go down? That will encourage a more dense realm perhaps? Though, that applies more for other continent instead of Dwillight.
I still have my hopes for AT. Big things may be in the making.
As for Dwilight, I don't have a character there right now. If I did have a character in an SA state, I would advocate for militant expansion. Aggressive, militant expansion. Forced change of all realms to theocratic government. Wipe out any realm that harbored a Dishman.
For a character in another realm, I really don't know. I am somewhat stale on current politics.
I just started a character in AT, so i am not sure how it is over there. But if you are in Dwilight, that sounds like a plan. The problem is, most will just give in and convert. Unlike the oppose people have on the Thal rules in Beluaterra. I think it's the will to oppose on a dominant rule that is the key here. The southern war is good because they try to dislodge Luria. The north however.....we all know what happen.
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It gonna be same old peacelight after the war is over and probably a lot of people gonna quit the game. I am looking forward to that. :-\
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It gonna be same old peacelight after the war is over and probably a lot of people gonna quit the game. I am looking forward to that. :-\
Why are you happy for people to quit the game? It seems quite a bad thing to me.
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There used to be a system which made it very difficult to maintain anything above 20. People still stretched it to 25 but outer regions required a bit of work. This however didn't really encourage any new realms people are thinking about. It only forced big realms to create more puppets which eventually grew quite large.
Many things have been tried but none of them really made people want to create more smaller realms. The main problem is people don't want to suddenly give up everything they've built over the years so others can have fun. It just doesn't happen. If you want this to happen, you need to climb there yourself.
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Fissoa, at least, won't have any trouble with a long, prosperous peace. We've got monsters knocking on our western borders who need civilizing. I imagine it'll be bloody and hopeless for a long time yet.
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Why are you happy for people to quit the game? It seems quite a bad thing to me.
It's called sarcasm. Give it a try.
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Until there's some benefit to having lots of knights, realms will always strive to spread their nobles across as many regions as possible. The more lords and fewer knights you have, the more gold there is for everyone on tax day, and since a region can achieve maximum everything with one noble just as easily as with 3, there's absolutely no reason for a realm not to spread their nobles as thinly as possible.
The most stable realms, and typically most powerful, have just above 1:1 nobles-per-region. Morek Empire had exactly 1:1 on March 1 (the beginning of the monster invasion) and has maintained an average of 1.2 nobles per region since then.
Currently the 4 lowest density realms are: Morek (0.9); Astrum (1.3); Fissoa (1.5); and Swordfell (1.6). All 4 of them have about the same number of regions today as they did on March 1, give or take 3 regions. The 4 highest density realms are Asylon (4.7); Barca (4.0); Luria (3.6); and D'Hara (3.2).
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Until there's some benefit to having lots of knights, realms will always strive to spread their nobles across as many regions as possible.
Which is why I do still have plans to make some tweaks to the estate system to make having more knights beneficial.
I just haven't quite figured out the details yet :)
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The most stable realms, and typically most powerful, have just above 1:1 nobles-per-region.
This shouldn't surprise anyone. The realms with the least spare nobles are the ones that can least afford to take actions. This is the root of the whole character density issue we've been pushing for the past many months. Higher noble densities provide options for realms to take action.
As an anecdotal case: On Atamara back when the coalition war against CE started, Darka considered running a CTO against one of CE's cities. (Eaglin, maybe? I don't remember, it was years ago.) We decided against it because we didn't have enough nobles to make it work. (Maybe we should have tried anyway... :( )
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Which is why I do still have plans to make some tweaks to the estate system to make having more knights beneficial.
I just haven't quite figured out the details yet :)
I have a few ideas about this, but one pretty simple one that could have a major impact would be to change the current practice in which lords get 50% of the total tax gold collected from vacant estates, and instead have them either (a) get nothing from vacant estates (because there's nobody there to collect the taxes), or (b) 50% of the lord's share. So if the lord's share for an occupied estate is 10% of the total yield, he would only get 5% of half the yield from a vacant estate.
Wild lands should probably yield more than empty estates, but less than occupied estates. The reasoning being that wildlands wouldn't produce much, if anything, but they also don't require any upkeep, while maintaining an empty estate would be a drain on the coffers. This way it would only be beneficial to have wild lands if to mitigate the implied cost of maintaining empty estates, but it would always be better to have occupied estates.
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One problem I see with this idea is that it incentifies lords to not give there knights land. But it does not incentify knights to stay in estates and not crave for lands of their own. This dynamic might actually make things worse.
Realistically we have to find a way to give estate knights something cool to do so they wouldn't be bitter they're missing out on a huge chunk of fun which lordship is.
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One problem I see with this idea is that it incentifies lords to not give there knights land. But it does not incentify knights to stay in estates and not crave for lands of their own. This dynamic might actually make things worse.
Realistically we have to find a way to give estate knights something cool to do so they wouldn't be bitter they're missing out on a huge chunk of fun which lordship is.
No. Maybe I didn't explain it very well, but basically occupied estates should = more gold for knights and lords. Under the current system, lords receive more gold if estates are vacant, so there is no incentive to give land to knights currently, and realms are incentivized to strive for something close to a 1:1 ratio. That's the entire problem in a nutshell. The problem isn't too many regions, the problem is that the fundamental laws of "nature" need to be tweaked.
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This should belong to King Pavel. :p Silver Nightblade of Betrayal - Weapon
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Wait, wait, wait. Luria Nova is an underdog? Since when? Since having almost double nobles than any other realm on Dwilight?
Seriously, the most arrogant and imperialistic realm, who had had the largest number of nobles for all of Dwilight's history as far as I recall, finally gets payback for the realms it continuously bullied in the past (D'Hara, Fissoa) and their allies, not counting the numerous attacks and slights on a number of other nations?
Why wouldn't Swordfell pick D'Hara as an ally? The two have always been very friendly, while Swordfell's interactions with Luria contain a few occasions of Luria basically calling them their property. Also, Swordfell could claim land from Luria if it sided against them, but has no opportunity to expand if it sided with them.
Luria Nova is reaping what it has been sowing for decades.
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Why wouldn't Swordfell pick D'Hara as an ally?
Cause they are more interested in taking Luria's money and buying favors from Barca with it? :-X
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What the hell happened to North Divide? ;D
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What the hell happened to North Divide? ;D
Something wonderful... http://youtu.be/qWNRgAxH-5o
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Swordfell could expand if it joined Luria's side. ;D There's some nice beachfront property right there.
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You want to have fun? Play the game, become a ruler, do as you please. You'll certainly learn a thing or too in the process...
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You want to have fun? Play the game, become a ruler, do as you please. You'll certainly learn a thing or too in the process...
Yes, and what percentage of the players who play will ever become ruler?
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Yes, and what percentage of the players who play will ever become ruler?
A lot higher than the percentage of the players who are ruler at any given moment.
Also, that's the wrong question to ask: the right question to ask is what percentage of the players who really want to become ruler will ever become ruler.
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Okay, Yeah, i did notice that. It was a good one, but notice how the people reacted to it. As of continent wide? Like for instance, instead of being angry at Swordfell, Astrum and Morek doesn't seem to be doing anything. Is that really OOC or IC you might ask?
It seems that some are surprised that every time a match is lit there isn't some big explosion. The moment Enoch was in a position of power within Swordfell we were mobilizing to deal with it.
Unfortunately for Enoch, Swordfell wasn't quite as weak of a realm as he assumed. You can only betray so many before everyone knows exactly how much of a traitor you are.
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It seems that some are surprised that every time a match is lit there isn't some big explosion. The moment Enoch was in a position of power within Swordfell we were mobilizing to deal with it.
Unfortunately for Enoch, Swordfell wasn't quite as weak of a realm as he assumed. You can only betray so many before everyone knows exactly how much of a traitor you are.
It's ironic, Enoch never made oath of service to SA and everyone bitches that he betrayed them...while he made oath of service to Swordfell and was ousted for upholding it. People love pretty lies more than ugly truths.
The story of Enoch's rule is an interesting one, but you'll have to ask your ruler for the interesting bits. It was too bad that a third of Swordfell never took part in the whole drama. Hell, didn't seem like 2/3rds of the realm took part of anything until Enoch made waves.
Oh, and Swordfell is far weaker than Enoch assumed. ;)
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Seriously, the most arrogant and imperialistic realm
Some might say an Empire is by definition imperialistic :P
The arrogance is just what comes of being Lurian, and therefore inherently superior.