BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Helpline => Topic started by: Vaylon Kenadell on May 29, 2011, 12:41:49 AM
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I'm the lord of a particular region on Dwilight, and, like all regions, it lists the following statistics on the region page:
Gold: 113 gold
Food: 96 bushels
I don't understand what these two things are supposed to indicate. Is it gold/food production? Supply? Neither of those things make sense given the other information I know about my region. Could someone explain to me what they are? A forum search turned up nothing, and the wiki is largely useless.
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I'm the lord of a particular region on Dwilight, and, like all regions, it lists the following statistics on the region page:
Gold: 113 gold
Food: 96 bushels
I don't understand what these two things are supposed to indicate. Is it gold/food production? Supply? Neither of those things make sense given the other information I know about my region. Could someone explain to me what they are? A forum search turned up nothing, and the wiki is largely useless.
Heh, let's see if I remember all this correctly...I'll double check later to make sure, please post something on the Community Manger Attention thread if I don't post or edit again in a day or two.
Gold: That is the nominal gold production value if you run a 10% tax rate and have 100% production the whole week.
Food: The food number was originally put in for a 5 day harvest, so to get food production you take the food number * 7/5 (to change it from a five to seven day harvest period) * production percentage of at every full turn of the harvest * season modifier (25% Winter, 75% Spring, 100% Summer, 200% Autumn) * weather modifer (drought/bounty/etc).
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From what I had been told and calculations seem to support this the food and gold number is your regions daily production of that good IF your region is at 100%
This means that with 113 gold your region will produce 791 gold/week assuming production is at 100% you can from there see what your weekly tax haul would be if you have a 10% tax you could expect about 79 gold. 15% would = 119. Investments can temporarily boost your regions output of gold.
Food is a bit more tricky and is how Bedwyr stated it. The two items left out is that that number is assuming 100% production and weather conditions are normal. If your regions production stat is less then your output will be less. If there is a drought than production will be less. If there is an abundant harvest than it will obviously be higher, I haven't gone into seeing exactly how much higher it is though. The difference however between food and gold is that even if an investment is made in your realm the food output will never be greater than 100% production.
I hope it makes sense now. Let me know if it doesn't.
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Gold production is almost certainly how Forbes described it.
Mraulaxon has a gold value of "230", ran 100% production all week and has a 13% tax rate. 230 x 7 x 0.13 = 209.3. I received 208 gold. Seems to work.
Not sure where the "that's the gold you get at 10% tax rate" came from, because I've heard it before, but I do not think it's correct.
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Aha, yes, that is correct. I always get it mixed up with one of the old ways of calculating the predicted tax income.
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Thanks for the help so far. How many peasants does 1 bushel of food feed?
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One bushel feeds 500 peasants for one day.
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Damn, I always thought that the indicated gold was the total tax generated in a week at full production. Thanks for clearing that up :)
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This understanding is correct. 8)
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I really think this info should be up clearly on the wiki.
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I really think this info should be up clearly on the wiki.
Be my guest, feel free to put it up.
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Yes, I agree, it should be on the Wiki. I have one last topic. How much does it take to feed your troops when moving through starving areas? Is there a certain bushel-to-troop ratio? Can you only feed your own troops?
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Yes, I agree, it should be on the Wiki. I have one last topic. How much does it take to feed your troops when moving through starving areas? Is there a certain bushel-to-troop ratio? Can you only feed your own troops?
1 Bushels has always been enough for my men.
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Yes, I agree, it should be on the Wiki. I have one last topic. How much does it take to feed your troops when moving through starving areas? Is there a certain bushel-to-troop ratio? Can you only feed your own troops?
As far as I know, soldiers get first priority in regions, they take the same amount of food as normal peasants (though I haven't tested that), and if you have food in caravans you can only feed your troops (though there was a feature request that Tom thought possible to change that for Traders or other limited situations).
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As far as I know, soldiers get first priority in regions, they take the same amount of food as normal peasants (though I haven't tested that), and if you have food in caravans you can only feed your troops (though there was a feature request that Tom thought possible to change that for Traders or other limited situations).
That was one of my old feature requests, in an effort to make traders more useful to the realm.
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One bushel feeds 500 peasants for one day.
Are you sure this is correct? I thought that it differed by region type, just like gold and food production does.
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Gold and food production don't vary by region type. You can use the same equations listed above to find out your weekly output weather it's a city or rural region. I'm not sure about how many people one bushel feeds but it shouldn't change just because of the type of region.
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Are you sure this is correct? I thought that it differed by region type, just like gold and food production does.
Pretty sure. Ran some fairly extensive spreadsheets on it, and it would make sense for bushels to feed a set amount of peasants regardless of region type.
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Pretty sure. Ran some fairly extensive spreadsheets on it, and it would make sense for bushels to feed a set amount of peasants regardless of region type.
Those damn city peasants always expect more. First its a wall to protect them, then its stone buildings to prevent fire. Now they expect more/better food. Its a never ending cycle.
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Pretty sure. Ran some fairly extensive spreadsheets on it, and it would make sense for bushels to feed a set amount of peasants regardless of region type.
I ask because I know that the amount of gold or food produced per peasant varies across region types and population, and I assumed it was the case with demand also. Though I just did a spreadsheet on my duchy in Dwilight, and it looks pretty consistent there too. 1 bushel feeds 70 peasants for the harvest period, which meshes with your number.
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Yes, production per peasant is highly dependent on total population and region type. A city with 50,000 people will produce less efficiently than a city of 8000 people, for instance. There are quite a number of things that are region type dependent, including how easy it is to maintain control.
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The Gold value is the amount of gold produced in the region per day, at 100% production. That does not mean that you get that much gold. It's the economic base which you tax to generate your tax incomes. This is accumulated in the regional tax coffers everyday, and collected/distributed every 7 days. (Unless you call for an early tax day.) So the income calculation per day is:
GoldRating * %Production * %TaxRate = DailyTaxIncome
Multiply by 7 to get your weekly tax income, assuming all 7 days are the same. Due to the fact that a regular tax week is 7 days, a 15% tax rate will produce just a little more tax income than the region's gold rating. (15% * 7 = 105%). That's why many people consider 15% a "normal" tax rate.
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... if you have food in caravans you can only feed your troops (though there was a feature request that Tom thought possible to change that for Traders or other limited situations).
That was one of my old feature requests, in an effort to make traders more useful to the realm.
Tom's reservations about this include concerns that some characters will be relegated to "chuck wagon duty", ferrying food back and forth to the front lines to feed the troops, rather than being allowed to participate in the battles and other, more exciting aspects of the game. Especially newer players.
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I have some more questions... recently, a lord in our realm took over a region. This region has 193 gold listed on its stats page. Well, on tax day, that lord made 356 gold in taxes, and the region isn't even at full production. How is that possible?
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When a region has no lord, doesn't part of its tax gold build up and will be available once the region has a lord again?
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I have some more questions... recently, a lord in our realm took over a region. This region has 193 gold listed on its stats page. Well, on tax day, that lord made 356 gold in taxes, and the region isn't even at full production. How is that possible?
It is possible if you take into consideration the fact that he could have sold food. Monies from the sale of food come in on tax day but are not split amongst the knights. Without knowing all of the facts (production level, tax level etc.) it's impossible to say.
And I just remembered... there's a way to levy a special tax which goes directly to the Lord and it does not get split amongst the knights as well.
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I have some more questions... recently, a lord in our realm took over a region. This region has 193 gold listed on its stats page. Well, on tax day, that lord made 356 gold in taxes, and the region isn't even at full production. How is that possible?
It must have been a rogue region. In a rogue region, there is no one to remove the gold from the tax coffers. It just builds up according tot he rules listed above, until a realm takes it, either through looting, or through TOing the region and then taxing it.
During the third invasion of BT, the city of Jidington was rogue for many, many months. When Kingdom of Alluran took it an appointed a duke, the duke collected over 7,000 gold on the next tax day. When Dwilight first opened, many realms made a LOT of money by looting the rogue regions around them. They were generating gold, but it was just collecting in the tax coffers. Several realms had official looting expeditions, and several people wandered the island looting cities and townslands.
That's one thing that made CTOs a bit easier back then. When you took the city, and the surrounding regions, too, you got a windfall in gold on your first tax day. I think most regions have pretty much been looted to death by now, and their extremely low population and production prevents the gold reserves from building back up.
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When a region has no lord, doesn't part of its tax gold build up and will be available once the region has a lord again?
No. Lordless regions still have tax collections on tax days. The gold goes to the realm banker, minus a hefty "administrative fee" taken by the locals. I once had a banker that collected gold from his city, another city, a stronghold, and a rural all on one tax day.
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And I just remembered... there's a way to levy a special tax which goes directly to the Lord and it does not get split amongst the knights as well.
The "extra" tax option never really worked, and has been removed.
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The "extra" tax option never really worked, and has been removed.
I was wondering what happened to that!
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I was wondering what happened to that!
It and many other things that don't work will be removed... in time. 8)
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Can we get a heads up on what don't work so we stop using it?
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Umm, everything that doesn't work... doesn't work. It should say "this doesn't work" with the exception of the tax thing.
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The "extra" tax option never really worked, and has been removed.
I could swear it did at some point in time...
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I could swear it did at some point in time...
So did I, but it's hard to disentangle all the factor and say if the burst in gold was really coming from that.
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So did I, but it's hard to disentangle all the factor and say if the burst in gold was really coming from that.
I seem to vaguely recall it being enabled for a short while, and then being disabled again permanently because of "bugs" or something. I might be thinking of another feature, though.
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IIRC, it actually did work for a short while, but not correctly. It was then disabled, and hung around for a LONG time still there, but not actually doing anything at all.
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If it worked, it most certainly worked the wrong way since there isn't the db support for the feature. By the way, is this a desirable feature to have? I could consider doing it.
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By the way, is this a desirable feature to have? I could consider doing it.
I thought it was nice, yes. It is minor.
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I thought it was nice, yes. It is minor.
Hmm, okay, see: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,715.0.html
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I actually liked the feature. It would also be nice if it would state on the tax line how much was taken from this extra tax so if a Lord wanted to place this tax for region improvements such as RC's or workshops etc they would know how much was taken week to week.
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What I liked about it was that it was secret! ;D
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Meh, a rather useless feature, imo, other than for sabotaging your own region. Just give smaller shares to knights and maintain higher tax levels, if you really want to be greedy.
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Meh, a rather useless feature, imo, other than for sabotaging your own region. Just give smaller shares to knights and maintain higher tax levels, if you really want to be greedy.
It was good for those that wanted to hide the fact they were greedy though, or those that actually only wanted the once off splash of gold it was supposed to provide.
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It was good for those that wanted to hide the fact they were greedy though, or those that actually only wanted the once off splash of gold it was supposed to provide.
In the realms I play, there are multiple regions without knights, so nobody really cares if a lord is too greedy as if he does have knights that feel they are being robbed, they can move to another region that will appreciate them more.
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In the realms I play, there are multiple regions without knights, so nobody really cares if a lord is too greedy as if he does have knights that feel they are being robbed, they can move to another region that will appreciate them more.
I've seen realms in FEI that have knights earning only 16 gold, despite small shortages of knights in the realm, so such a thing can hardly be said to be universal.
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I've seen realms in FEI that have knights earning only 16 gold, despite small shortages of knights in the realm, so such a thing can hardly be said to be universal.
Sorry, but said knights are just stupid.
Or completely oblivious. BT doesn't get many newbies, as new characters can't be created directly on it. Dwilight doesn't get that many newbies either. So I don't deal with newbies much.
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Or you have your key income regions being constantly under assault like some realms are experiencing right now.
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Or you have your key income regions being constantly under assault like some realms are experiencing right now.
I was assuming he meant 16 golds "at 100% production". What's the point of comparing incomes with subpar production? If Pequad got a knight, it would get 0 gold even if granted a 100% oath. Does that make the lord greedy? Low incomes are to be expected when your region is a) !@#$ or b) in !@#$ shape.
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Assuming...is not a good habit in life.
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Assuming...is not a good habit in life.
Assuming is a necessary evil. We can't know anything for sure in life, so we must make decisions based on likely assumptions.
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Well at least your admission to dealing little with "newbies" makes me understand better why you chose certain stances in your vision of what BM needs to be more "fun".
Low incomes should also be expected for certain realms. Obsidian Islands is a prime example. But for your Dwilight experience, Barca will never reach any good income, even at maximum production. Poor cities, no nearby townslands, poor woodlands and rurals, means if they have enough knights to maintain enough estates for all those regions, the income would be spread about paper thin.
If anyone ever decides to be crazy and try to go for Sallowtown, it's a similar story. The city has about no income or food production, nor do its regions either. It is separated from easy access to fertile grounds by a huge desert that has stats fitting for a desert, minus any potential wealth from oil, so in other words, poor and barren. Then there are those mountains, and before you think that those mountains at least would provide good gold income, they don't. The Divides all barely make it past 100 gold base. And at least one of them has base food production in the single digits.
So yes, sometimes there just isn't any choice if you decide on the wrong realm. Of course you can say all you want about having outside support and all that. But really? What realm is seriously going to give you food for free, or at a very low price, especially when your entire realm would be dirt poor to afford any food, yet still needs it? I'm talking about theoretical Sallowtown realm, by the way, which some people apparently think they have it figured out.
Ahem...they probably don't.
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Wait... what is this "decent income" that we're talking about? I consider a knight making 50+ gold per week to be "a knight of decent income", and 80+ gold per week to be "a knight with a good income", and 100+ gold per week to be "a wealthy knight".
I feel that many are overestimating how many estates, and therefore knights are needed for a particular region. Most regions need only 1 knight, at most 2. Even most townslands can get by with 2 knights. Quite a few cities can thrive with a tiny bit of maintenance + care on just 2-4 knights.
Thus, if the lords/dukes are okay with oaths like 40% for a 1 knight region, 25-30% for a 2 knight region, and 10+% for a 3-4 knight city, then there would be no problems with gold. Of course, I'm also talking with the assumption of near 100% production/population.
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Lieges usually aren't too clear about how many knights they absolutely need. Some like to have a lot too, even if the region really doesn't need it.
And for dukes of large cities, yeah, took me a while to get some of them to give me above 10%. Now I just go straight for the 10% for a huge city, way more if I know the duke needs knights.
But even so, some places really can't be helped.
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I'm lord of Raviel on Dwilight. My knight gets 55 gold with a 26% share. The region requires 9/9, and as you know, a large estate only provides 8 points of coverage. so I'm a little short, and I can't find another knight, even though I would be willing to offer a 30% share to anyone wiling to serve., I told my knight a few days ago that I would increase his share to 32% if his family could find another knight for the region. I've also sent messages from my other characters a month ago, to no avail.
Could the current estate system have the requirements decreased slightly, given the downward trend in our player base? Even better would be if the demand changed dynamically, so that if more players join, there is space created for them.
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I'm lord of Raviel on Dwilight. My knight gets 55 gold with a 26% share. The region requires 9/9, and as you know, a large estate only provides 8 points of coverage. so I'm a little short, and I can't find another knight, even though I would be willing to offer a 30% share to anyone wiling to serve., I told my knight a few days ago that I would increase his share to 32% if his family could find another knight for the region. I've also sent messages from my other characters a month ago, to no avail.
Could the current estate system have the requirements decreased slightly, given the downward trend in our player base? Even better would be if the demand changed dynamically, so that if more players join, there is space created for them.
Do you really need 9 estate? Why can't you function on 8/9 authority? I do that all the time...
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Do you really need 9 estate? Why can't you function on 8/9 authority? I do that all the time...
Hmm, right now I'm running with full authority and the shortage is on production. I suppose it should be the other way around.
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Lieges usually aren't too clear about how many knights they absolutely need. Some like to have a lot too, even if the region really doesn't need it.
And for dukes of large cities, yeah, took me a while to get some of them to give me above 10%. Now I just go straight for the 10% for a huge city, way more if I know the duke needs knights.
But even so, some places really can't be helped.
I'm glad that you aren't trying to be my knight. That 10% would be 200 gold a week. Or just over it. hehe. Then again, all of my knights would be considered "wealthy" by the standards of the guy who stated his standards just a bit ago.
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Well at least your admission to dealing little with "newbies" makes me understand better why you chose certain stances in your vision of what BM needs to be more "fun".
Low incomes should also be expected for certain realms. Obsidian Islands is a prime example. But for your Dwilight experience, Barca will never reach any good income, even at maximum production. Poor cities, no nearby townslands, poor woodlands and rurals, means if they have enough knights to maintain enough estates for all those regions, the income would be spread about paper thin.
If anyone ever decides to be crazy and try to go for Sallowtown, it's a similar story. The city has about no income or food production, nor do its regions either. It is separated from easy access to fertile grounds by a huge desert that has stats fitting for a desert, minus any potential wealth from oil, so in other words, poor and barren. Then there are those mountains, and before you think that those mountains at least would provide good gold income, they don't. The Divides all barely make it past 100 gold base. And at least one of them has base food production in the single digits.
So yes, sometimes there just isn't any choice if you decide on the wrong realm. Of course you can say all you want about having outside support and all that. But really? What realm is seriously going to give you food for free, or at a very low price, especially when your entire realm would be dirt poor to afford any food, yet still needs it? I'm talking about theoretical Sallowtown realm, by the way, which some people apparently think they have it figured out.
Ahem...they probably don't.
People wanting to claim Sallowtown? I doubt we could accept that. And I doubt Sallowtown can survive as anything else than a D'Haran duchy or D'Haran-sponsored colony. While various factions could have various motives to sponsor a colony there, the only one who could actually economically benefit from such an investment is D'Hara, for defensive purposes and as a base of operations to free the eastern land trade route for access to eventual eastern realms. Hence why D'Hara claims up to Desert of Silhouettes, after all. And we did at one time hold Sallowtown, when our capital was a little more central and we had (I assume at least) more nobles.
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Do you really need 9 estate? Why can't you function on 8/9 authority? I do that all the time...
Whenever I talk about how many knights a region needs, for general discussions about how many knights it takes to run a region/realm, I always figure on all knights have large estates, with both production and authority covered to no less than 100%. Let's face it, regions *can* be stable without any knights at all, if you're willing to run the region at an 7-8% tax rate or something like that, and *nothing* happens to disturb the balance. (If it does, then the region will go down the tubes *fast*!)
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Whenever I talk about how many knights a region needs, for general discussions about how many knights it takes to run a region/realm, I always figure on all knights have large estates, with both production and authority covered to no less than 100%. Let's face it, regions *can* be stable without any knights at all, if you're willing to run the region at an 7-8% tax rate or something like that, and *nothing* happens to disturb the balance. (If it does, then the region will go down the tubes *fast*!)
Yes, but you see, my region needs a harsh court every few weeks at "some people are complaining" tax rates (which, let's face it, is the best a lord who's not always in the region can run), and nothing else needs to be done. Thus, I don't think 100% coverage is ever needed for authority, just for production. 9-10 requirements are the most an average region would need, and one knight on authority and lord estate on production covers that quite nicely.
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If the game says you need 10 for full coverage, then you need 10. If you don't need 10, then why is the game saying you do?
That is, at least, the impression the game gives you. And this is reinforced by the messages it gives you every day: " Too few estates support production and tax collection. Too few estates exert authority and support the local police. Lack of knights reduces region control." i.e.: "You need more knights."
If 80% was enough, why are we telling them they don't have enough?
I suspect that most of this will be worked out in the estates revamp.
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If the game says you need 10 for full coverage, then you need 10. If you don't need 10, then why is the game saying you do?
That is, at least, the impression the game gives you. And this is reinforced by the messages it gives you every day: " Too few estates support production and tax collection. Too few estates exert authority and support the local police. Lack of knights reduces region control." i.e.: "You need more knights."
If 80% was enough, why are we telling them they don't have enough?
I suspect that most of this will be worked out in the estates revamp.
Again, this is a matter of "Wait, why do we want everything 100% or above"? I'm saying a region does not need full estate coverage to support what we consider "normal state". 80% is not enough for perfect stats, no, but it is certainly enough if you don't have too many knights to go around.
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Again, this is a matter of "Wait, why do we want everything 100% or above"? I'm saying a region does not need full estate coverage to support what we consider "normal state". 80% is not enough for perfect stats, no, but it is certainly enough if you don't have too many knights to go around.
No, it's not enough. The game itself tells you it's not enough.
"Too few estates support production and tax collection. Too few estates exert authority and support the local police."
See? Right there. The game is telling you, in red letters, every day, that you don't have enough. Red is bad. Red needs fixed. "Too few" is bad. If the game is telling you that you have "too few" of something then you need more of it. This is doubly true if it's telling you "too few".
The messages the game gives the players drive the reactions of the players. You want them to see 80% as a viable, workable situation? Then when they have 80% you shouldn't be telling them every single day that they need more.
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No, it's not enough. The game itself tells you it's not enough.
"Too few estates support production and tax collection. Too few estates exert authority and support the local police."
See? Right there. The game is telling you, in red letters, every day, that you don't have enough. Red is bad. Red needs fixed. "Too few" is bad. If the game is telling you that you have "too few" of something then you need more of it. This is doubly true if it's telling you "too few".
The messages the game gives the players drive the reactions of the players. You want them to see 80% as a viable, workable situation? Then when they have 80% you shouldn't be telling them every single day that they need more.
Clarification: I didn't write the existing estate code, so I can't tell you why it's that way.
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I know you didn't write the current code. But it's something to keep in mined when you write the new code. :P You have to be very careful in what messages the game is giving to the players.`
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I know you didn't write the current code. But it's something to keep in mined when you write the new code. :P You have to be very careful in what messages the game is giving to the players.`
Yes, let's keep the two separate. I was talking about what your regions needs under the existing system. Now would you agree that regions don't need as many knights as many tend to believe?
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I'm just a player, but from my perspective, if the game says I need another knight, then I need another knight. If that's not the case, then the daily report should be changed to say "your region would benefit from another knight"--soften the language a little.
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One of my characters is lord of Xhahgus in Beluaterra, 10% tax rate, mid-high 80s for production and high 90s-100% for morale and loyalty. Have my estate set to authority to keep control higher, Control still settles to Main quickly, but don't recall it dropping below that. The region hasn't had a knight in months, but the region is also right next to the capital, which in my experience is very helpful.
In looking over the daily region reports:
Day 8: Production falls 4%. Rumours speak of increased unrest.
Day 7:Morale falls 2%. Rumours speak of increased unrest.
Day 6: Morale falls 2%. Rumours speak of increased unrest.
Day 5: Production rises 1%. Morale rises 2%. Rumours speak of increased unrest.
Day 4: Production rises 2%.
Day 3: Production rises 1%. Rumours speak of increased unrest.
Day 2: Production falls 1%.
Day 1: Rumours speak of increased unrest.
So for 8 days, production went down a net 1% and Morale net decrease of 2%. Control is at Main and I think I've been away from the region for most of this time, maybe held court on either day 7 or 8.
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Now would you agree that regions don't need as many knights as many tend to believe?
I know that regions can operate with less than 100% estate coverage. I have done it quite often. Even without any knights at all. But it is fragile.
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I know that regions can operate with less than 100% estate coverage. I have done it quite often. Even without any knights at all. But it is fragile.
You neither want to be far from the capital or close to any fighting.
And you hope the majority faith is yours, or that there isn't any.