BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: Chenier on June 03, 2011, 07:09:33 AM
-
Dwilight is just completely different from the other continents, its geography makes "too much peace" way too brutal.
I think Dwilight should simply be completely spared from the mechanic.
-
You would think the soldiers would like the peace on Dwilight. Pay in silver and gold without doing much other than marching around and training. Better than getting stomped/eaten by monsters.
-
You would think the soldiers would like the peace on Dwilight. Pay in silver and gold without doing much other than marching around and training. Better than getting stomped/eaten by monsters.
Indeed. Staying at home to protect their wives and kids from the monsters, instead of going about to get killed in far-away lands, should they even make it that far.
-
Wait wait wait, too much peace only happens when almost no combat occurs, including against rogue.
-
I agree with Chénier.
Though I hate Too Much Peace altogether on any continent.
But especially on Dwilight it is silly.
-
IF your realm is quite small, YOU DO NOT GET "too much peace" - you are exempted.
Monster battles are worth less than realm battles, but if you are fighting a one or two per week you are not going to get this. I forget the precise threshholds.
We wrote this code around the same time Dwilight came out, and we were very specific to exempt any small, "struggling to get going" type realms.
Furthermore, you need to get these repeatedly before there is any noticeable effect on your realm.
I'm rather surprised that anyone on Dwilight could even get one of these messages, given the monster situation. What realm are you playing in?
-
I've seen TMP in Morek and in Astrum. They only lasted a turn or two and I don't think they had devastating effect, I can see that LE might have some problems with it from time to time.
-
TMP has also been changed since it was first implemented: now, rather than hitting region stats directly, it simply makes your acceptable tax rate lower. It also makes your troops' training decay.
This should result in your being less able to fight, while still making it highly unlikely that TMP alone can kill you.
-
I think hitting to soldiers training is too harsh atm. And it should not go under what your unit had when they were recruited.
Even when Darka is at war, but sure we had long refit times... so TMP will kick in... it REALLY hits to training atm.
It will make RC´s which have good training almost useless. Better recruit already sucky cheap units.
I hope it would be tweaked a bit less harsh when it effects training, rather hit morale?
-
I think hitting to soldiers training is too harsh atm. And it should not go under what your unit had when they were recruited.
Actually, it's impossible for the game to tell this.
Even when Darka is at war, but sure we had long refit times... so TMP will kick in... it REALLY hits to training atm.
It will make RC´s which have good training almost useless. Better recruit already sucky cheap units.
I hope it would be tweaked a bit less harsh when it effects training, rather hit morale?
Hitting morale would give you even bigger problems on long marches, trust me.
Frankly, Tom has been trying for years to make it hard for people to run long-distance wars. If this is what it takes to get people to fight closer to home, rather than insisting that they ought to be able to fight on the other side of the continent, because that's what we did in 2002 and that was the Golden Age, then so be it.
Finally, once this hits stable, I think you should actually watch the effects before you declare that everything is doom and there's no hope for the game anymore.
-
I think hitting to soldiers training is too harsh atm. ... it REALLY hits to training atm.
Could you explain to us all of the effects on training atm?
When we first wrote this code, people were complaining it hit too hard - BEFORE WE EVEN RELEASED IT. Before they knew what effect it would have, they were already grumping that it was too strong.
Can you quote us some training effects please? Actual numbers you've seen?
Finally, once this hits stable,
??? I wrote this code 3 years ago. It's still not released on stable? Has there been some big change, and this is a different set of code from what I'm thinking?
-
Could you explain to us all of the effects on training atm?
If your realm gets hit by TMP, eventually the training rating for military units will start to fall.
When we first wrote this code, people were complaining it hit too hard - BEFORE WE EVEN RELEASED IT. Before they knew what effect it would have, they were already grumping that it was too strong.
Can you quote us some training effects please? Actual numbers you've seen?
I can't. My Darka character got wounded soon after we started getting the notices. Also, I don't routinely track my unit's training values. I'm sure that other people can. I've heard rumors that people who have experienced extended (multi-week long, or longer) bouts of TMP have had their unit's training dropped all the way to 1% or so.
??? I wrote this code 3 years ago. It's still not released on stable? Has there been some big change, and this is a different set of code from what I'm thinking?
Tim was referring to the modified effects, not the original ones. However, these modified effects have actually now been implemented on all islands. I think it just slipped Tim's mind that they had actually been implemented on stable as well as testing.
-
Tom has been trying for years to make it hard for people to run long-distance wars. If this is what it takes to get people to fight closer to home
Actually, the purpose of this code was to create more fighting.
People like jaune and his friends on Atamara had gridlocked the island so badly with peace and paper wars that everyone was complaining all the time. This was code Tom had on the back burner that we dusted off as a countermeasure to the Atamaran Ruler's Cabal. It was a little broader than that, of course, but it came about because of the situation on Atamara.
So jaune, you prolly won't too far with your complaints ::)
-
I'm pretty sure TMP has its origins in the year-long peace on EC, where Tom had to step in and threaten to lightning-bolt rulers if they didn't start some wars soon.
-
Wait wait wait, too much peace only happens when almost no combat occurs, including against rogue.
We fight over food, not rogues or other armies. Should we be punished because our struggle for survival doesn't involve a lot of battles through strength of arms, but rather diplomacy, initiative, heavy administration, and profitable trade agreements?
-
TMP has also been changed since it was first implemented: now, rather than hitting region stats directly, it simply makes your acceptable tax rate lower. It also makes your troops' training decay.
This should result in your being less able to fight, while still making it highly unlikely that TMP alone can kill you.
Less gold!? That frigging explains it! We've been getting TMP for a while in D'Hara now. Importing food in reasonable numbers is pricey as hell. I though the tax drops was because of the loss of my knight... So, to get this straight, I get less gold for our army because I must import so much, and because of this the army is too small to go fight anywhere, and therefore I get even *less* gold to buy my food with...
Please, not for Dwilight... :(
-
I'm pretty sure TMP has its origins in the year-long peace on EC, where Tom had to step in and threaten to lightning-bolt rulers if they didn't start some wars soon.
that may very well have been the original, original cause. when we picked it up again, and actually rolled it out, it was from the Atamara gridlock. But the code was already mostly there and just waiting to be finished, so you may be right.
Should we be punished because our struggle for survival doesn't involve a lot of battles through strength of arms, but rather diplomacy, initiative, heavy administration, and profitable trade agreements?
Does you diplomacy, administration and trade agreements involve all the new players, or just a lot of time on the Ruler and Banker channels?
In any case, Chenier, the monsters on Dwilight should be more than enough to keep you from having a problem, so unless you want to post the numbers to show otherwise, I think you stop arguing just for the sake of argument and see how it is actually affecting you.
-
... Tom had to step in and threaten to lightning-bolt rulers if they didn't start some wars soon.
He did more than threaten. At least four, maybe five rulers got bolted for that.
-
that may very well have been the original, original cause. when we picked it up again, and actually rolled it out, it was from the Atamara gridlock. But the code was already mostly there and just waiting to be finished, so you may be right.
Does you diplomacy, administration and trade agreements involve all the new players, or just a lot of time on the Ruler and Banker channels?
In any case, Chenier, the monsters on Dwilight should be more than enough to keep you from having a problem, so unless you want to post the numbers to show otherwise, I think you stop arguing just for the sake of argument and see how it is actually affecting you.
This is Dwilight, where war is unreasonable for most realms, and stupid for the rest.
Trade involves whoever wants it. Lords who don't care for it are at a high risk of frequent starvation. Those who do so repeatedly get revolted out of office. Knights can become traders and make good sums, and this is highly encouraged. Hell, I frequently send out offers to attract traders to settle down in our realm.
The knight who just wants to fight in wars should just get the hell out of Dwilight, it's a pretty stupid place to be if that's what one is expecting. The North has had a few wars, but they are nowhere as thrilling as the wars of other continents due to the nightmarish logistics involved.
And I have never seen a plea for war or conflict in D'Hara, since its founding, other than to absorb Shadovar from which it stemmed. By anyone. Quite the contrary, actually.
And our geography means we are rather safe from monster attacks. They are not nonexistent, but very rare by Dwilight standards, as most of our lands connect to fortified humanized territory.
Now, if the code considered starvation as battles, as far as the TMP code relating to taxes, it'd be more fair while remaining realistic. After all, we need that gold to feed them, and without the imports we pay with their gold, they would all starve (even more).
-
This is Dwilight, where war is unreasonable for most realms, and stupid for the rest.
Trade involves whoever wants it. Lords who don't care for it are at a high risk of frequent starvation. Those who do so repeatedly get revolted out of office. Knights can become traders and make good sums, and this is highly encouraged. Hell, I frequently send out offers to attract traders to settle down in our realm.
The knight who just wants to fight in wars should just get the hell out of Dwilight, it's a pretty stupid place to be if that's what one is expecting. The North has had a few wars, but they are nowhere as thrilling as the wars of other continents due to the nightmarish logistics involved.
And I have never seen a plea for war or conflict in D'Hara, since its founding, other than to absorb Shadovar from which it stemmed. By anyone. Quite the contrary, actually.
And our geography means we are rather safe from monster attacks. They are not nonexistent, but very rare by Dwilight standards, as most of our lands connect to fortified humanized territory.
Now, if the code considered starvation as battles, as far as the TMP code relating to taxes, it'd be more fair while remaining realistic. After all, we need that gold to feed them, and without the imports we pay with their gold, they would all starve (even more).
Wow.
so you're just going to keep on pretending that we aren't telling you over and over and over that the monster battles are more than sufficient to keep TMP away, because you've found a nice juicy argument and you just want to argue, regardless of any sort of reality going on around you?
And our geography means we are rather safe from monster attacks.
I'm sure that someone with imagination enough to come up with the Blood Cult can figure out how to put together a small fighting force looking for glory who will wander off to help their neighbors with THEIR monster problem.
This is BATTLEmaster. If Tom took such drastic measures in East Island and Atamara to put BATTLE back into their games, do you think he intended to make a special exception for Dwilight?
Do you think the Rulers on East Island and Atamara didn't have their own special brand of excuses?
-
Wow.
so you're just going to keep on pretending that we aren't telling you over and over and over that the monster battles are more than sufficient to keep TMP away, because you've found a nice juicy argument and you just want to argue, regardless of any sort of reality going on around you?
I'm sure that someone with imagination enough to come up with the Blood Cult can figure out how to put together a small fighting force looking for glory who will wander off to help their neighbors with THEIR monster problem.
This is BATTLEmaster. If Tom took such drastic measures in East Island and Atamara to put BATTLE back into their games, do you think he intended to make a special exception for Dwilight?
Do you think the Rulers on East Island and Atamara didn't have their own special brand of excuses?
After some thought, I decided it wasn't all that bad. After all, the new code seems to be exactly what I suggested a while back, without the realm-crippling effects anymore. I minor tweak for the tax tolerance to take into consideration other forms of struggle, such as starvation, would make me more than happy. It would remain realistic and fair.
Your arguments that "monsters are enough" is obviously invalid, as I keep getting these TMP reports. If you were correct, then I wouldn't be having the reports. The mere fact of having them proves you wrong.
We also don't have enough of an army to send them away without careful consideration. I bought over 550 golds worth of bushels this week, and I think this is purely through automatic purchases in my city, which excludes the many hundreds I spent on sending out caravans myself. The other cities are often starved, so they don't have much population nor production, so they don't produce much for the army. So would it really be reasonable that I spend the rest of my income just to go hunt monsters in foreign lands? My serfs have enough worries at home, they don't have the luxury of getting bored about lack of warfare, and they know that if they don't work extra-hard, they will face starvation.
Also, the "battle"master argument is poor. This is generally agreed upon. If BM was only about battle, then you wouldn't have traders, religions, ambassadors, and a whole bunch of other stuff. The game is about more than just battle. And if intense battle was really what was desired with Dwilight, then travel times would have to be reduced, seasons removed, and rogues turned off. Because Dwilight's geography is nothing like the others.
And truth be told, I always was bitter that everyone had to pay because of the lame players of EC and AT. None of these "problems" had ever existed on Beluaterra, where wars were purely player-driven (between and despite the invasions, who really reduced human conflicts instead of igniting them) and readily available. Nor the other continents at the time either. The problem was therefore with the people, and not the system.
-
Wait wait wait, again, look to the realm around you. Are *all* of them at active war? Are *all* of them getting TMP? Why not then?
-
can't go east to get your monsters? must be some in qubel and eastwards. madina had lots of monsters (well.. that was like a year back or so i think), especially around panafau.
-
Wait wait wait, again, look to the realm around you. Are *all* of them at active war? Are *all* of them getting TMP? Why not then?
I am saddened by this. Perhaps you had not heard. All realms of SA are at war with Caerwyn. Morek and Astrum (with some help from Libero, Corsanctum, and Summerdale) just crushed Averoth in a short war. Madina is at war with Aurvandil. The only realms not at war are Luria Nova, Barca, Asylon, Pian en Luries, Terran, and the Duchy of Fissoa. They are all in positions that are more open to rogue invasions than D'Hara, which only has to worry about two regions producing rogues (they don't produce nearly enough to stave off TMP). Barca and Asylon are at a size where they are too large to be immune to TMP, but too small to fight any of the large monster waves we see on Dwilight.
-
Saying TMP on Dwi is no problem because of the rogues seems ... not logical. I thought TMP was to encourage inter-realm strife, so what's the use for it on Dwilight if you say from the very beginning your goals won't be met anyway?
I'm for the TMP system, but it seems to be missing it's point on Dwilight.
-
I would very much support Chenier's idea of factoring in starvation. It really makes a lot of sense. From the player's point of view a starved realm is just too difficult a platform to wage war (both logistically and politically) and from the in-game perspective it just doesn't make sense that nobles would be expected to go and fight battles when they are already trying to feed their starving population with what little resources they have.
If realms are healthy however and are enjoying peace: make them collide!! :D
-
So, quick fix for any realm that is facing TMP: Move all your food around so some regions are starving. Presto! No more TMP penalties.
-
So, quick fix for any realm that is facing TMP: Move all your food around so some regions are starving. Presto! No more TMP penalties.
Crap I didn't think of that.
Is there some way to get around this problem? I feel there should be a way for really incapacitated realms to be exempt from TMP.
-
We also don't have enough of an army to send them away without careful consideration. I bought over 550 golds worth of bushels this week, and I think this is purely through automatic purchases in my city, which excludes the many hundreds I spent on sending out caravans myself.
I don't quite follow. What is your army doing?
More importantly, what are your non-Lord players doing?
The point of this code is to ensure that Lords and Councilmen don't get all tied up in their personal games and message channels, and keep the game fun for everyone. It may seem to be most directly concerned with inter-Realm warfare, and to a degree, it is, but it serves mainly as a constant reminder to those players in power that they shouldn't shut themselves off from the common, new nobles of their realm who also want to play and have fun. Those players generally get involved through warfare; it's what brought them to the game.
All I'm hearing from you is how tied up you are with starvation in "your city".
So, you're a Duke dealing with your personal problems. What are your common nobles doing all day, every day? Sitting around, maintaining your regions for you?
Why don't you post some of the numbers I keep asking you for, so we can actually tell if there is a problem or not. Because from the info you've given so far, you sound EXACTLY like the the people this code was written to counteract.
-
it just doesn't make sense that nobles would be expected to go and fight battles when they are already trying to feed their starving population with what little resources they have.
depends on what sort of Lord you are. You're not starving - what do you care if peasants are starving? they breed like rabbits anyway, don't they? they lose a few children, they'll just make some more. you still take your taxes first, whether or not they have anything left over afterwards...
obviously you don't HAVE to play that, but I think it's a bit closer to the SMA than kind-hearted Lords running about like the Queen's surveymen in the British Raj. I can't picture a nobleman saying, "Gee, I'd like to suit up and go fight a battle, but who will feed these poor peasants? I think I'd better pass"
-
depends on what sort of Lord you are. You're not starving - what do you care if peasants are starving? they breed like rabbits anyway, don't they? they lose a few children, they'll just make some more. you still take your taxes first, whether or not they have anything left over afterwards...
obviously you don't HAVE to play that, but I think it's a bit closer to the SMA than kind-hearted Lords running about like the Queen's surveymen in the British Raj. I can't picture a nobleman saying, "Gee, I'd like to suit up and go fight a battle, but who will feed these poor peasants? I think I'd better pass"
Starvation is going to negatively affect the region stats and eventually become quite a burden. The noble is not necessarily caring for the peasants themselves. He's just protecting his own power.
-
sure, but he's not going to skip going to war over it. if stats lower and he needs more gold, he'll just raise taxes. Long-term, he can deal with it properly.
Yes, it is realistic to say that many nobles spent a lot of time administrating their fiefs. but you are wandering off the real topic here - do ALL of your nobles need to spend so much time managing the Duke's regions for food production that they can't possibly send a few men off to fight some monsters? We're not playing Farmville.
-
sure, but he's not going to skip going to war over it. if stats lower and he needs more gold, he'll just raise taxes. Long-term, he can deal with it properly.
Yes, it is realistic to say that many nobles spent a lot of time administrating their fiefs. but you are wandering off the real topic here - do ALL of your nobles need to spend so much time managing the Duke's regions for food production that they can't possibly send a few men off to fight some monsters? We're not playing Farmville.
Usually a realm can afford war (for example my current Dwi realm: Fissoa) but if they honestly cannot handle a war and are having massive food problems then I think they need some sort of exemption from too much peace.
-
Usually a realm can afford war (for example my current Dwi realm: Fissoa) but if they honestly cannot handle a war and are having massive food problems then I think they need some sort of exemption from too much peace.
well, define "honestly" and we'll have a starting point.
food is just a matter of making some trade agreements and setting up automatic caravans, or a trader. Add a couple of buros or leave region lords at home if you are worried about stats. Even from Chenier, that's most of what he talked about.
I don't really see how that concerns the majority of nobles, or keeps them from patrolling the border regions for monsters or joining in a war if the realms politics call for it.
-
The main source that D'Hara could get food, Morek, has already pledged ALL its surplus to Astrum. I can't think of any other realm that can provide food without exacerbating any food problems that realm has.
-
So, quick fix for any realm that is facing TMP: Move all your food around so some regions are starving. Presto! No more TMP penalties.
As small battles aren't enough to ward off TMP, small starvation doesn't need to be either. If thousands of peasants die and production is crushed back down to zero, then you are getting hit worse by the starvation code than you were by the TMP code. It'd be like cutting your hand off to remove a splinter on your finger.
And it doesn't need to have anything to do with training. The two current effects could be handled separately. A realm without any problems could get "There is too much peace, and the soldiers are getting out of shape while the peasants are wondering what on earth their taxes are being used for", while a realm with food problems only would only get the first part of this.I don't quite follow. What is your army doing?
More importantly, what are your non-Lord players doing?
The point of this code is to ensure that Lords and Councilmen don't get all tied up in their personal games and message channels, and keep the game fun for everyone. It may seem to be most directly concerned with inter-Realm warfare, and to a degree, it is, but it serves mainly as a constant reminder to those players in power that they shouldn't shut themselves off from the common, new nobles of their realm who also want to play and have fun. Those players generally get involved through warfare; it's what brought them to the game.
All I'm hearing from you is how tied up you are with starvation in "your city".
So, you're a Duke dealing with your personal problems. What are your common nobles doing all day, every day? Sitting around, maintaining your regions for you?
Why don't you post some of the numbers I keep asking you for, so we can actually tell if there is a problem or not. Because from the info you've given so far, you sound EXACTLY like the the people this code was written to counteract.
First off, my city actually had the time to build up to make enough income to actually feed itself via imports (barely). The realm's two other cities, with !@#$ production, are the ones constantly starving.
Secondly, I don't know what the knights are doing. I'm a priest, and have limited access to military data. Furthermore, I have made it very clear that I fully delegate all of the military concerns to the general, which last I heard was all the fad. As long as we aren't being occupied and obviously utterly failing, it's not my job to intervene and dictate what the military job, that is other people's jobs. As far as I know, some are trading, others are doing maintenance work to keep everything running smooth, and the rest are patrolling the borders to make sure no monster comes to eat all our food reserves we desperatly need and that are mostly produced on our frontiers.
You are missing the very clear point I did that *not a single person, in the history of the realm, has ever asked to go to war*. Stop assuming people are bored out of their minds, and that I am actively thwarting their attempts to have something happen. Things were slightly different under the monarchy, but even then we weren't really a repressive regime. Now, there's absolutely nothing to even suggest repression, there simply isn't any conflict or discontent showing up. And of all our "new nobles" (say, less than 250 days in realm, because the rest are mostly at 600 days or 900 days, oldest being myself at 992 days), only 1 of the four joined after 2008, he joined in January 2011, with his first character being in D'Hara. Most of these 4 "new nobles" never really spoke much, though, so the one who did get himself a lordship. And seriously, I wouldn't consider any of them as being "new nobles", you are just making yourself a vision of what the realm is without any knowledge of it.
depends on what sort of Lord you are. You're not starving - what do you care if peasants are starving? they breed like rabbits anyway, don't they? they lose a few children, they'll just make some more. you still take your taxes first, whether or not they have anything left over afterwards...
obviously you don't HAVE to play that, but I think it's a bit closer to the SMA than kind-hearted Lords running about like the Queen's surveymen in the British Raj. I can't picture a nobleman saying, "Gee, I'd like to suit up and go fight a battle, but who will feed these poor peasants? I think I'd better pass"
How can you even say that? Starvation drops your production to 0% extremely fast (as soon as people start dying, I believe), and one that beginds revolt is not too far away. I honestly can't picture a lord *not* saying this, because without his serfs, he's nothing. Feudalism isn't slavery, it's reciprocal rights and obligations, one of them being the protection of those you tax.
sure, but he's not going to skip going to war over it. if stats lower and he needs more gold, he'll just raise taxes. Long-term, he can deal with it properly.
Yes, it is realistic to say that many nobles spent a lot of time administrating their fiefs. but you are wandering off the real topic here - do ALL of your nobles need to spend so much time managing the Duke's regions for food production that they can't possibly send a few men off to fight some monsters? We're not playing Farmville.
Clearly you don't understand starvation. When you face starvation, you have no choice but to *lower* taxes, otherwise your region will revolt. Starvation can easily put you in a vicious cycle where you no longer produce the gold/food you need to feed yourself, therefore being stuck at 0% production until you die (or someone from outside helps).
Also, you seem to overestimate the number of knights we have. In my huge city, I only have 2, meaning no support for production. Most of our regions don't have any. We have just as many lords as non-lords, so I think we have more people with titles than people without.
well, define "honestly" and we'll have a starting point.
food is just a matter of making some trade agreements and setting up automatic caravans, or a trader. Add a couple of buros or leave region lords at home if you are worried about stats. Even from Chenier, that's most of what he talked about.
I don't really see how that concerns the majority of nobles, or keeps them from patrolling the border regions for monsters or joining in a war if the realms politics call for it.
The border regions are either civilized, or far away. These sea routes between ports are rather long, and as soon as they pass Nebel they are left without walls. The roaming monsters are often huge, and more than any scouting party can handle without walls. Going far out is simply suicide, and nobody enjoys just suiciding their troops. Also, though one of our traders just got promoted to lordship, the both of em used to just be knights. And without them, especially without the one who just got promoted, D'Hara would be in really crappy shape right now. Automatic caravans have limited range, and you can only import so much from the realms within range. We heavily rely on eastern realms with big surpluses to keep ourselves fed, and for that we need traders.
Don't forget that in D'Hara, the "majority of nobles" are actually lords. And such a lord-heavy population considerably reduces our ability to go fight far-away, especially since not all of these non-lords are pure warriors or warrior/heroes either.
Keep in mind that my request has somewhat changed since I first wrote. I'm not asking for freebies, here, and really I don't care that our troops lose training, it's only fair. I just want the tax tolerance to take starvations into consideration, whether it be by the damages caused by it recently or simply by checking what the food supply ratio is (peasants will know if 80% of their food supply is imported).
-
The main source that D'Hara could get food, Morek, has already pledged ALL its surplus to Astrum. I can't think of any other realm that can provide food without exacerbating any food problems that realm has.
Fissoa has surplus to sell. My character contacted Duke Francis Adams Kinsey today. I think we even realise a surplus in winter ;)
-
Fissoa has surplus to sell. My character contacted Duke Francis Adams Kinsey today. I think we even realise a surplus in winter ;)
Fissoa is already our main supplier, as far as I know, and most of my efforts are geared towards diversifying our sources as Fissoa alone isn't enough.
-
And that flow will stop if the Lurians ever finds the need to crush Fissoa under their boot heels :)
-
As small battles aren't enough to ward off TMP, small starvation doesn't need to be either. If thousands of peasants die and production is crushed back down to zero, then you are getting hit worse by the starvation code than you were by the TMP code. It'd be like cutting your hand off to remove a splinter on your finger.
And it doesn't need to have anything to do with training. The two current effects could be handled separately. A realm without any problems could get "There is too much peace, and the soldiers are getting out of shape while the peasants are wondering what on earth their taxes are being used for", while a realm with food problems only would only get the first part of this.
First off, my city actually had the time to build up to make enough income to actually feed itself via imports (barely). The realm's two other cities, with !@#$ production, are the ones constantly starving.
Secondly, I don't know what the knights are doing. I'm a priest, and have limited access to military data. Furthermore, I have made it very clear that I fully delegate all of the military concerns to the general, which last I heard was all the fad. As long as we aren't being occupied and obviously utterly failing, it's not my job to intervene and dictate what the military job, that is other people's jobs. As far as I know, some are trading, others are doing maintenance work to keep everything running smooth, and the rest are patrolling the borders to make sure no monster comes to eat all our food reserves we desperatly need and that are mostly produced on our frontiers.
You are missing the very clear point I did that *not a single person, in the history of the realm, has ever asked to go to war*. Stop assuming people are bored out of their minds, and that I am actively thwarting their attempts to have something happen. Things were slightly different under the monarchy, but even then we weren't really a repressive regime. Now, there's absolutely nothing to even suggest repression, there simply isn't any conflict or discontent showing up. And of all our "new nobles" (say, less than 250 days in realm, because the rest are mostly at 600 days or 900 days, oldest being myself at 992 days), only 1 of the four joined after 2008, he joined in January 2011, with his first character being in D'Hara. Most of these 4 "new nobles" never really spoke much, though, so the one who did get himself a lordship. And seriously, I wouldn't consider any of them as being "new nobles", you are just making yourself a vision of what the realm is without any knowledge of it.
How can you even say that? Starvation drops your production to 0% extremely fast (as soon as people start dying, I believe), and one that beginds revolt is not too far away. I honestly can't picture a lord *not* saying this, because without his serfs, he's nothing. Feudalism isn't slavery, it's reciprocal rights and obligations, one of them being the protection of those you tax.
Clearly you don't understand starvation. When you face starvation, you have no choice but to *lower* taxes, otherwise your region will revolt. Starvation can easily put you in a vicious cycle where you no longer produce the gold/food you need to feed yourself, therefore being stuck at 0% production until you die (or someone from outside helps).
Also, you seem to overestimate the number of knights we have. In my huge city, I only have 2, meaning no support for production. Most of our regions don't have any. We have just as many lords as non-lords, so I think we have more people with titles than people without.
The border regions are either civilized, or far away. These sea routes between ports are rather long, and as soon as they pass Nebel they are left without walls. The roaming monsters are often huge, and more than any scouting party can handle without walls. Going far out is simply suicide, and nobody enjoys just suiciding their troops. Also, though one of our traders just got promoted to lordship, the both of em used to just be knights. And without them, especially without the one who just got promoted, D'Hara would be in really crappy shape right now. Automatic caravans have limited range, and you can only import so much from the realms within range. We heavily rely on eastern realms with big surpluses to keep ourselves fed, and for that we need traders.
Don't forget that in D'Hara, the "majority of nobles" are actually lords. And such a lord-heavy population considerably reduces our ability to go fight far-away, especially since not all of these non-lords are pure warriors or warrior/heroes either.
Keep in mind that my request has somewhat changed since I first wrote. I'm not asking for freebies, here, and really I don't care that our troops lose training, it's only fair. I just want the tax tolerance to take starvations into consideration, whether it be by the damages caused by it recently or simply by checking what the food supply ratio is (peasants will know if 80% of their food supply is imported).
Actually back in the days of the Dragon Queen I asked to go to war, quite a bit. Since for some unfathomable reason we were all scared that SA was going to attack, I suggested and was prepared to strike pre-emptively. Sure we probably would have lost, but better that then to have a bunch of "nobles" living in fear of a possible enemy. There was also a considerable period of time were we pushing for a war against Terran.
-
There was also a considerable period of time were we pushing for a war against Terran.
Really? Wow. I've been in Terran from almost Day 1 and never heard of hostilities from D'Hara.
On the original topic, however, I do suspect that D'Hara's situation is unique. Most Dwilight realms I think have little problem with TMP, except maybe Libero, and Summerdale may be the next to have that issue.
But D'Hara has the double-punch of few border regions to have a monster influx and a massive endogenous trade imbalance. The only real way they can stave off TMP is to be involved in a war across sea-routes that can be easily defended and, specifically, sea-routes that are non-overlapping with import pathways.
-
Really? Wow. I've been in Terran from almost Day 1 and never heard of hostilities from D'Hara.
On the original topic, however, I do suspect that D'Hara's situation is unique. Most Dwilight realms I think have little problem with TMP, except maybe Libero, and Summerdale may be the next to have that issue.
But D'Hara has the double-punch of few border regions to have a monster influx and a massive endogenous trade imbalance. The only real way they can stave off TMP is to be involved in a war across sea-routes that can be easily defended and, specifically, sea-routes that are non-overlapping with import pathways.
Terran claimed lands that D'Hara planned to expand to, north of Paisly. We figured it would be easier to beat you down and then claim those lands, then to try to defend them after we claimed them. Of course reality got in the way, as it did to most of the early grand plans in D'Hara.
-
Actually back in the days of the Dragon Queen I asked to go to war, quite a bit. Since for some unfathomable reason we were all scared that SA was going to attack, I suggested and was prepared to strike pre-emptively. Sure we probably would have lost, but better that then to have a bunch of "nobles" living in fear of a possible enemy. There was also a considerable period of time were we pushing for a war against Terran.
I don't really remember that. Who would we have striked? Everyone's way too far away, and our military never was that impressive.
Though I vaguely remember about Terran. Seemed like a threatening SA bastion for a while, but I never considered any of these talks to be all too serious, more like brainstorming than a call to arms.
And that was at a time where the monarchs had to get some talks going to distract the people of how oligarchic and repressive they were. Perhaps time did make me forget a few calls by some people, but from what you say, it wasn't because you were bored out of your mind, but rather as part of a strategy (or rather, because of pride). For some reason, war seemed more feasible back then too. Maybe we had more nobles?
They say one should never say never, and indeed I shouldn't have. Let's replace that with "since the monarchy became inactive", to be on the safe side.
-
I don't really remember that. Who would we have striked? Everyone's way too far away, and our military never was that impressive.
Though I vaguely remember about Terran. Seemed like a threatening SA bastion for a while, but I never considered any of these talks to be all too serious, more like brainstorming than a call to arms.
And that was at a time where the monarchs had to get some talks going to distract the people of how oligarchic and repressive they were. Perhaps time did make me forget a few calls by some people, but from what you say, it wasn't because you were bored out of your mind, but rather as part of a strategy (or rather, because of pride). For some reason, war seemed more feasible back then too. Maybe we had more nobles?
They say one should never say never, and indeed I shouldn't have. Let's replace that with "since the monarchy became inactive", to be on the safe side.
I know little of D'Hara since the reign of the Dragon Queen, but given how many nobles left at that time, I could well believe that war wasn't really practicable. But then if that is the case, perhaps the realm should pass on?
-
I know little of D'Hara since the reign of the Dragon Queen, but given how many nobles left at that time, I could well believe that war wasn't really practicable. But then if that is the case, perhaps the realm should pass on?
If D'Hara should pass on, then a great many others should as well. D'Hara isn't shrinking, it's just stagnation that looms for as long as we don't get fresh blood (as all of the next regions to acquire are net food producers that will greatly help out).
-
If D'Hara should pass on, then a great many others should as well. D'Hara isn't shrinking, it's just stagnation that looms for as long as we don't get fresh blood (as all of the next regions to acquire are net food producers that will greatly help out).
I can agree with that, many realms have survived past their use by date and continue only because an old core remember the golden age. D'Hara could always abandon the isle territories and expand onto the main land.
-
And that flow will stop if the Lurians ever finds the need to crush Fissoa under their boot heels :)
Hah, they've tried that before. The monsters we face now are more of a problem than Luria ever was :)
-
I seem to recall them running around your lands unopposed not so long ago, making it to just before Fissoa Fields. And they weren't even trying very hard then :P
-
I seem to recall them running around your lands unopposed not so long ago, making it to just before Fissoa Fields. And they weren't even trying very hard then :P
They can run around all they want :) At least we got to scare off Alanna :P ("early refit")
-
That had little to do with you scaring anyone off, and more with the plot against her by the Lurian Dukes and yours truly ;)
-
I can agree with that, many realms have survived past their use by date and continue only because an old core remember the golden age. D'Hara could always abandon the isle territories and expand onto the main land.
That's all colonized. Besides, Paisly is making me filthy rich (though I'm still re-investing almost all of it), and if the other dukes bothered to put enough efforts on fetching food themselves, they'd be as well. And the advantage of the sea routes remains as compelling as ever, if not more so.
-
That had little to do with you scaring anyone off, and more with the plot against her by the Lurian Dukes and yours truly ;)
Yup.
If not for Sacha and the Ducal Revolution, Fissoa would already be under Lurian Subjugation :D
-
Yup.
If not for Sacha and the Ducal Revolution, Fissoa would already be under Lurian Subjugation :D
yeah and stupid Fissoas still blame Leon for coöperating with Allana....if they only knew
But heck there was to much peace, Madina decides to reclaim a city we held for a long time and was taken by a dammed group of guys from Libero Empire from the inside. We attack and all the surrounding realms go "stop the war, peace!." ....."Damm liberal hippies"
-
yeah and stupid Fissoas still blame Leon for coöperating with Allana....if they only knew
But heck there was to much peace, Madina decides to reclaim a city we held for a long time and was taken by a dammed group of guys from Libero Empire from the inside. We attack and all the surrounding realms go "stop the war, peace!." ....."Damm liberal hippies"
To say so is to severely underestimate the stakes for those realms. Self-interest prevailed where Mendicant's diplomatic skills failed.
-
To say so is to severely underestimate the stakes for those realms. Self-interest prevailed where Mendicant's diplomatic skills failed.
It's almost tempting to help Madina so they can continue the war :P
-
Hah, they've tried that before. The monsters we face now are more of a problem than Luria ever was :)
You realise that at that time only Askileon was producing a decent amount, while the other cities were still building up? And that Askileon also paid for the two other armies defending our southern and northern border? Even with that strength diversion we managed to pretty much walk around your regions without problems......
-
It's almost tempting to help Madina so they can continue the war :P
Mind you, there *also* is the discourse of "We are more civilized than the blood thirsty northerners and can handle this conflict diplomatically". :P
-
Mind you, there *also* is the discourse of "We are more civilized than the blood thirsty northerners and can handle this conflict diplomatically". :P
Yes we could, if mendicant and his loonies relinquish their claims in Candiels and Candiels fields. Damm city stealers would be getting away nicely then
-
Yes we could, if mendicant and his loonies relinquish their claims in Candiels and Candiels fields. Damm city stealers would be getting away nicely then
Since out of D'Hara, Caerwyn, Barca, Terran, Aurvandil, Madina, and Grand Duchy of Fissoa, that solution only appears to please Madina, I doubt it'll happen. Considering how poorly Madina is doing by living peacefully, I can't imagine how long it would survive the ire of the others.
-
Since out of D'Hara, Caerwyn, Barca, Terran, Aurvandil, Madina, and Grand Duchy of Fissoa, that solution only appears to please Madina, I doubt it'll happen. Considering how poorly Madina is doing by living peacefully, I can't imagine how long it would survive the ire of the others.
They won't, unless... There is a power bloc out there that isn't among the realms named. Just saying. ;D
-
Attempts to decrease server strain and the "too much peace" mechanic seem to be at cross-purposes.
He did more than threaten. At least four, maybe five rulers got bolted for that.
That's far too heavy-handed, in my opinion, and it's certainly contrary to the spirit of roleplaying, as far as Dwilight would be concerned in such a situation.
-
Attempts to decrease server strain and the "too much peace" mechanic seem to be at cross-purposes.
The two are completely unrelated. The server issues have nothing to do with BattleMaster itself.
That's far too heavy-handed, in my opinion, and it's certainly contrary to the spirit of roleplaying, as far as Dwilight would be concerned in such a situation.
The situation on EC at the time was nothing at all like the current situation on Dwilight. There were rumors that certain players were actively working through OOC channels, to keep the island at peace. I don't really know any of the details. I had only been playing the game for maybe a year or so, and was not playing in any of the realms involved.
-
EC had seen a whole year - or thereabouts - of uninterrupted peace. No wars, virtually no battles other than a few monster mop-ups which are hardly worth the effort. That might be fun for those with top positions so they can kick back and siphon off tons of gold to their families or to train their characters, but for the vast majority of people who have no positions at all and a mediocre or small income, it's incredibly boring. Tom first said "Start some wars." That didn't help, so he said "Start some wars or else." That /still/ didn't help, so he threatened to bolt those who were chiefly responsible for the boredom: the rulers. And I guess they thought he was bluffing, because not too long after that a few rulers got fried. And wouldn't you know, wars started within a week or two. I wouldn't call that heavy-handed. If anything, I think Tom should've started threatening people much, much sooner. As far as I'm concerned, that was an entirely wasted year. This game is called BattleMaster, the fighting aspect is just as important as the RP aspect.
-
Tom first said "Start some wars." That didn't help, so he said "Start some wars or else." That /still/ didn't help, so he threatened to bolt those who were chiefly responsible for the boredom: the rulers. And I guess they thought he was bluffing, because not too long after that a few rulers got fried. And wouldn't you know, wars started within a week or two. I wouldn't call that heavy-handed. If anything, I think Tom should've started threatening people much, much sooner. As far as I'm concerned, that was an entirely wasted year. This game is called BattleMaster, the fighting aspect is just as important as the RP aspect.
That's called railroading, and good GMs don't have to do it.
-
That's called railroading, and good GMs don't have to do it.
This isn't a campaign with a preset story. This is a massively multiplayer game, and a small number of people were conspiring to make it deadly boring for a much larger number.
-
This is a massively multiplayer game, and a small number of people were conspiring to make it deadly boring for a much larger number.
Did player count on EC go back up after they were bolted?
-
Did player count on EC go back up after they were bolted?
I have no idea; I wasn't paying attention, and wasn't even a dev at the time.
However, this was years before the start of the steady player decline we now see.
-
Does it matter? BM is Tom's game, if he says there has to be war, then that's how it's gotta be. The social contract says every player has a responsibility to keep the game fun, not just for themselves but for others too. A year-long peace is NOT fun for the majority of people.
-
Did player count on EC go back up after they were bolted?
Yes. Once the wars started, people started coming back to the island they had left because it was, you know, no longer boring.
-
They won't, unless... There is a power bloc out there that isn't among the realms named. Just saying. ;D
I don't see any power bloc as having both the interest and capacity to support the destruction of Aurvandil. And I consider Madina to be a pretty fragile realm to prey upon if so they insist. The way I see it, if Madina decides to go to war, both southern realms will die and everyone in the south will pay for it.
Though I'll be glad they'd have freed us from Too much peace, it's not something I want to see happening.
-
SA intervening to help Madina, a realm that declared war on SA, against (among those realms) Terran and D'Hara, two southern realms relatively open to Astroism?
Seems unlikely.
Lurian intervention?
Reasonably possible.
-
Even if Luria were interested, the main interest would be "ooh, look, a nice big island with lots of farmland...Mmmmmmm...Want..."
-
How exactly would LN/PeL pay for Madina's downfall? It's not like we've ever depended on them in the slightest.
-
How exactly would LN/PeL pay for Madina's downfall? It's not like we've ever depended on them in the slightest.
Madina's downfall? The question was about protecting Madina if they destroy Aurvandil, as "on their own", without the help of "another power bloc", they would not be able to resist the wrath of the southern coalition. If they break the truce and attack Aurvandil, though, I guess you are free to join in the party in Madina.
-
Even if Luria were interested, the main interest would be "ooh, look, a nice big island with lots of farmland...Mmmmmmm...Want..."
We'd have to let it air out for a long time to get rid of the foul stench of failure, though...
-
Madina's downfall? The question was about protecting Madina if they destroy Aurvandil, as "on their own", without the help of "another power bloc", they would not be able to resist the wrath of the southern coalition. If they break the truce and attack Aurvandil, though, I guess you are free to join in the party in Madina.
It is conceivable that Lurian would use the conflict to re-engage Fissoa.
-
Pfft... It's barely even a challenge when their armies are home. What fun would it be to wail on them when they're off in Madina?
-
It is conceivable that Lurian would use the conflict to re-engage Fissoa.
They can do that any day. The Fissoans aren't required for action against Madina, though they are just awfully convenient to have on our side. There's no reason for this issue to have any relevance to any potential new conflict between the Grand Duchy and PeL. And I can't see how they could bring failed mediation attempts up as a causus belli...
-
Why would we go to war with realms that sell us food? That's obviously bad for business.
We do fight Monsters occasionally, but now I'm seeing lulls where Monsters do not spawn anywhere near us for weeks. Did the rogue spawning code get a tweak lately?
-
Why would we go to war with realms that sell us food? That's obviously bad for business.
We do fight Monsters occasionally, but now I'm seeing lulls where Monsters do not spawn anywhere near us for weeks. Did the rogue spawning code get a tweak lately?
Nope, no tweaks.
You're in D'Hara? Your eastern border is a set of single regions in a corridor, which means that monsters are less likely to get in that way. Your western border is in the southwest, which is becoming much less monster-ified due to the expansion of civilization in that area.
If Aurvandil falls, expect to see more again.
-
If Aurvandil falls, expect to see more again.
Aurvandil won't fall, we are just taking our business back ^_^
-
Aurvandil won't fall, we are just taking our business back ^_^
Actually, i do not think anyone has to do anything at all to cause them to fall.
They have been struggling before the secession and even more after.
I find it a miracle if they would still have a mobile army to keep defeating the rogues.
Madina didn't even do much considerable damage apart from two friendly takeover attempts in Candiels which was already on 0 stats when we arived, thats why we did arive in the first place :P
-
Aurvandil won't fall, we are just taking our business back ^_^
Your ruler isn't really bothering with the peace talks anymore, nor has Florence testified as requested, nor any other Aurvandil nobles for that matter. Don't overestimate how much D'Hara and the others care about you, if you won't bother helping yourselves.
The way I see it, Aurvandil's lands have been contentiously mismanaged for some time now, due to poor leadership. The western realms don't want your realms to turn rogue and spawn tons of rogues, but you are looking more and more like a liability more than anything else, and the endless calls for food and gold and military aid is what seems to be ahead of us.
-
If Madina keeps the door shut, Aurvandil will eventually succumb under rogue pressure, I think.
Fissoa wouldn't mind better relations with PeL :)
-
If Madina keeps the door shut, Aurvandil will eventually succumb under rogue pressure, I think.
Fissoa wouldn't mind better relations with PeL :)
PeL or LN or both? :p
-
Your ruler isn't really bothering with the peace talks anymore, nor has Florence testified as requested, nor any other Aurvandil nobles for that matter. Don't overestimate how much D'Hara and the others care about you, if you won't bother helping yourselves.
The way I see it, Aurvandil's lands have been contentiously mismanaged for some time now, due to poor leadership. The western realms don't want your realms to turn rogue and spawn tons of rogues, but you are looking more and more like a liability more than anything else, and the endless calls for food and gold and military aid is what seems to be ahead of us.
The poor guy just moved into his new home, perhaps hes just a little inactive.
And no i don't think Madina would need any gold, food or military aid...
I don't understand why we would?
When Madina City revolted and almost half of the realm seceded at the same time we could have used some military support against the massive 10 k rogue forces amassing in single regions.
Madina used to aid Fissoa in a similar way.
But we don't have massive control issues, we where just betrayed and where slowly but steadily restoring from that.
-
Fissoa wouldn't mind better relations with PeL :)
Then I hope you're willing to give up your claims on Maf and Irvington...
-
The poor guy just moved into his new home, perhaps hes just a little inactive.
And no i don't think Madina would need any gold, food or military aid...
I don't understand why we would?
When Madina City revolted and almost half of the realm seceded at the same time we could have used some military support against the massive 10 k rogue forces amassing in single regions.
Madina used to aid Fissoa in a similar way.
But we don't have massive control issues, we where just betrayed and where slowly but steadily restoring from that.
I believe he was saying that Aurvandil needs millitary aid, not Madina.
-
Then I hope you're willing to give up your claims on Maf and Irvington...
They are still claiming it ;) This will get interesting ;P
-
If Madina keeps the door shut, Aurvandil will eventually succumb under rogue pressure, I think.
Fissoa wouldn't mind better relations with PeL :)
I suggest getting rid of your ruler then :p
-
Your ruler isn't really bothering with the peace talks anymore,
OOC inactivity, but I'm awaiting the return RP. Our claim is fair and real considering that our lands was stolen by a rebel group from libero in combination with old Grand Doge and old Duke of Madina that were plotting IC against our own realm. Which makes the game interesting but sucks since the on purpose mismanagement of Sage destroyed a lot of Madina city.
-
I believe he was saying that Aurvandil needs millitary aid, not Madina.
I was.
OOC inactivity, but I'm awaiting the return RP. Our claim is fair and real considering that our lands was stolen by a rebel group from libero in combination with old Grand Doge and old Duke of Madina that were plotting IC against our own realm. Which makes the game interesting but sucks since the on purpose mismanagement of Sage destroyed a lot of Madina city.
A forewarning would have been nice... And mind you, I sent an invitation to basically all of Aurvandil to reply to me, and Florence in particular, but got no response from anyone there. In Madina, I haven't had the time to actually reply to anyone, but I've gotten a few letters and invitations.
-
I was.
A forewarning would have been nice... And mind you, I sent an invitation to basically all of Aurvandil to reply to me, and Florence in particular, but got no response from anyone there. In Madina, I haven't had the time to actually reply to anyone, but I've gotten a few letters and invitations.
In aurvendil the opinion of the other nobles doesn't mather, Mendicant is the boss.
Perhaps thats also how the nobles feel.
Or perhaps they think its a lost cause.
Either way i am sure most madinans would respond to your messages.
-
I already did, but that D'harian bast*** is ignoring me lolz :P
-
Perhaps because you uncivilized Madineseishian folks don't know what the proper noun to refer to a person from D'Hara is? Hireshmont would ignore someone who referred to him as Terranish. Especially a pirate.
-
Don't blame me for being uncivilized, I'm from Madina 'harrrr'
-
I already did, but that D'harian bast*** is ignoring me lolz :P
Most probably the messenger was drunk, yeah we got that problem lots of times...
In the best case, he'll wake up by now, somewhere, wondering what the piece of parchment is doing in his hands.
-
I already did, but that D'harian bast*** is ignoring me lolz :P
Are you referring that that vague narrative about how you noticed my char come in? Didn't seem like there was much to react to, if it's the one I was thinking about. :P
-
Are you referring that that vague narrative about how you noticed my char come in? Didn't seem like there was much to react to, if it's the one I was thinking about. :P
I wrote another one, sorry bussy I'm moving into my new home and it needs a hell lot of paint
-
I wrote another one, sorry bussy I'm moving into my new home and it needs a hell lot of paint
And I wrote a quick RP too. Happy? 8)
-
And I wrote a quick RP too. Happy? 8)
Whieeeeeeeee!
-
Whieeeeeeeee!
Now I'm the one waiting. ;)
-
Holy crap, the tax effect is insane. My tax rate was lowered to 8%, and I'm the capital of a medium-sized realm, and I still get: "The tax rate is unbelievable, insane, stupid and outright robbery".
My tax rate is usually twice that. Stats have now dropped like crazy...
This gold is feeding you, stupid peasants!
I really feel that the tax toleration of TMP should take into consideration the realm's food supply (production/consumption ratio).
-
That's what you get for hiding out on an island and sharing a border with other realms ;)
-
Holy crap, the tax effect is insane. My tax rate was lowered to 8%, and I'm the capital of a medium-sized realm, and I still get: "The tax rate is unbelievable, insane, stupid and outright robbery".
My tax rate is usually twice that. Stats have now dropped like crazy...
This gold is feeding you, stupid peasants!
I really feel that the tax toleration of TMP should take into consideration the realm's food supply (production/consumption ratio).
Heh, maybe we should cancel our formal federation, and have wargames in Larur?
Or maybe D'Hara can have a constant patrol of Celtiberia for Barca?
-
You do what you have to do to keep the peasants in a constant, artificial state of fear. Just like modern governments do.
-
Or you can take a page from Orwell and institute constant controlled warfare to achieve a state of perpetual peace.
What I mean in BM terms is, you set War with a neighboring realm and have one predetermined battle once in a while to ward off TMP. Agree to set taxes around similar levels, and coordinate so that you separately protect each other's borders from monsters. Then when the monsters even thin out (Like in winter) you step over the border to take a few shots at each other just to entertain the soldiers. Then pull back and resume border patrol and policing the streets.
Boring as all heck, but I believe you can in fact do that, if you find any willing partner that would actually do it without getting subversive and sabotaging that setup.
-
Or you can take a page from Orwell and institute constant controlled warfare to achieve a state of perpetual peace.
What I mean in BM terms is, you set War with a neighboring realm and have one predetermined battle once in a while to ward off TMP. Agree to set taxes around similar levels, and coordinate so that you separately protect each other's borders from monsters. Then when the monsters even thin out (Like in winter) you step over the border to take a few shots at each other just to entertain the soldiers. Then pull back and resume border patrol and policing the streets.
Boring as all heck, but I believe you can in fact do that, if you find any willing partner that would actually do it without getting subversive and sabotaging that setup.
I thought planned or limited wars were against the rules for exactly this reason.
-
Or you can take a page from Orwell and institute constant controlled warfare to achieve a state of perpetual peace.
"What? What do you mean? Yes, of course, Terran has always been at war with D'Hara."
-
I thought planned or limited wars were against the rules for exactly this reason.
It's kind of like a professional wrestling match...More about entertaining the fans or something. But BM really is probably supposed to be more about real PVP stuff. Like, enemies at war are really supposed to be fighting each other, not staging some theater.
Ah well, there's nothing wrong with knowing that this stuff exists, as long as you don't actually try doing it.
-
I thought planned or limited wars were against the rules for exactly this reason.
I think this is true...
Though, frankly, that would require that D'Hara go to war with Caerwyn, or Madina, or Barca, or Terran. War with Caerwyn or Madina is imaginable and not completely self-destructive. War with Barca or Terran would make no sense at all.
Honestly, again, this has a lot to do with D'Hara's geography. Its high urban density combined with controlled border corridors (narrow land routes with allies, long sea routes) renders it uniquely secure from external attack, uniquely dependent on external trade, uniquely unable to acquire sufficient domestic food supplies, and uniquely unable to engage in aggressive warfare. Code that makes a great deal of sense elsewhere will have disorienting effects on such a distortionary realm.
-
I think this is true...
Though, frankly, that would require that D'Hara go to war with Caerwyn, or Madina, or Barca, or Terran. War with Caerwyn or Madina is imaginable and not completely self-destructive. War with Barca or Terran would make no sense at all.
Honestly, again, this has a lot to do with D'Hara's geography. Its high urban density combined with controlled border corridors (narrow land routes with allies, long sea routes) renders it uniquely secure from external attack, uniquely dependent on external trade, uniquely unable to acquire sufficient domestic food supplies, and uniquely unable to engage in aggressive warfare. Code that makes a great deal of sense elsewhere will have disorienting effects on such a distortionary realm.
Which is why I believe that the effect of TMP on tolerable taxes should take into account the realm's food supply ratio. D'Hara, or other city-states (say Rines seceded but could not convince adjacent regions, or enough of them, to join) need high tax rates to feed themselves via imports, and these are often the realms where war is the least feasible.
-
Which is why I believe that the effect of TMP on tolerable taxes should take into account the realm's food supply ratio. D'Hara, or other city-states (say Rines seceded but could not convince adjacent regions, or enough of them, to join) need high tax rates to feed themselves via imports, and these are often the realms where war is the least feasible.
I'm not sure we should be making code changes like this just to increase the viability of a chosen realm location.
-
I'm not sure we should be making code changes like this just to increase the viability of a chosen realm location.
It would not only affect D'Hara, though, but all realms in comparable situations. Granted, you won't find the same geographic circumstances elsewhere, but as I said, I think that if big cities secede to form city-states that always lack a lot of food, they should be viable without having to pick a fight with likely vastly superior neighbours. Such a measure would help out the smaller realms that would otherwise not be so able to pick fights themselves, as there's a direct link between food supply and realm size (while smaller realms go from both extremes, large realms usually at least break it even, if they don't produce surpluses).
-
Why doesn't D'hara send a few armies to help their allies fight the monsters? It'd give you lot something to do besides pissing money away in tournaments :P
-
Dwilight, if you aren't bitching about the impossibility of fighting off rogue hordes, you are bitching there aren't enough rogue for TMP purposes :)
-
Why doesn't D'hara send a few armies to help their allies fight the monsters? It'd give you lot something to do besides pissing money away in tournaments :P
Beats me, I'm not in charge of these things. If it were up to me, we'd always have troops in Barca fighting off rogues.
There must be some reason...
-
You're duke of the strongest duchy in D'hara, and yours borders another realm. Exercise your power, man!
-
You're duke of the strongest duchy in D'hara, and yours borders another realm. Exercise your power, man!
Or secede to Terran.
-
Well yes, that's where I was going ::)
-
I'm not sure we should be making code changes like this just to increase the viability of a chosen realm location.
Yeah, I don't think it will ever happen. If you put your realm in a crappy place, you have to deal with the crap. Otherwise, every realm that doesn't want to fight will just intentionally lower their food supply. It would be a big neon sign saying "Go for the cities!"
-
Yeah, I don't think it will ever happen. If you put your realm in a crappy place, you have to deal with the crap. Otherwise, every realm that doesn't want to fight will just intentionally lower their food supply. It would be a big neon sign saying "Go for the cities!"
You make it sound like not having a good food supply ratio is not a big deal.
And city-states make for munchy snacks.
-
Having been in realms that have had severe food supply problems, I know how bad it can get. I've seen the massive die-offs due to starvation. But the game is centered around armed conflict, not building a trading empire. You don't get a special dispensation or exemption from the rules because your realm happens to have some particular geographic location, or weird territorial layout.
It is still possible, however, that the balance of the TMP feature still needs tweaked. I don't know much about the balance of it myself, never have looked at that portion of the code. Care to post some details? How long have you been getting warnings? Has your realm been involved in many (any?) battles in that time?
-
Well, Dwilight is a homunculus map, so balance might not exactly have been too well-documented by the time it went live. I remember the ridiculous travel times in the early days. Not so fun. Even now Dwilight has possibly the longest travel times.
But still, some places just make me wonder what the mapmakers were thinking about, once you find out what the regions' stats are. D'Hara isn't actually too bad. Now the Divides...And has anyone wondered how hard it would be to run a realm located where the Zuma are? Geez, stats are in the basement...
-
The ma was made long, long before the region stats were assigned. So don't blame the map makers, blame the region-stat-assigners. I don't remember too much of that phase of the project. I know that some stuff was player-assigned, but I think Tom did most of the assigning of the exact stats.
-
I think it's awesome that some of the areas in Dwilight are almost worthless or extremely difficult to hold. Adds to the flavor of the continent.
-
And for some (possibly more than some) others, frustration, mainly that Dwilight can't be filled up. Yeah, yeah, it's how the continent is. But still the "ideal" shouldn't ignore how people actually react to it. In other words, you have strange people who want certain worthless regions no matter what, even though there is pretty much no chance of success there.
-
The Divide, oh god! That's the worst, despite it looking so cool.
It's meant for priests and courtiers, if you ask me. The kind that don't fight the monsters, but rather just tell their peasants to suck it up as they pass through.
Mind you, that's a bit less true since the travel changes to rogues. Used to be that rogues could cross any one of these mountains in a turn. I can't even imagine how dreadful for normal characters crossing those must be. And the realm would be doomed to being poor.
-
I want to set up a Crusader state in Balances Retreat so badly. But, as with all plans, Green Archer Needs Nobles Badly.
>.>
<.<
(Green Archer Is About To Die)
-
With mechanics the way they are right now, I'm going to give a bold declaration and state that having any long-lasting settlement of Balance's Retreat and its surrounding mountains is not going to happen in BM's existence. Sure, you might be able to hold on to it as part of a realm that is centered in a more fertile place. But the low income means all three Divides are resource sinks that have single digit food production (I think one of them has double digit food production) and barely 100 listed gold production at 100%. Sure, population is low, but so is BR. That gives about 100 listed gold, and is self-sufficient in terms of food (I think? I recall that it had 23 food production or something).
Add to it the Desert of Silhouettes on its west, and no easy access to any fertile regions, and you have a mountain fortress that could become stuff of legend...if only there were any good legends about it.
-
Yeah, you'd have to have it supported by other entities, hence my thoughts on a Crusader State supported by a religion (and, frankly, realms bordering it would probably be delighted to pay a tithe to keep the rogues down).
-
I was more wondering how much of a strain it would be to have people provide food AND gold. You understand that it's not just one or the other...In the best case you'd need another realm to sell you food at 1 gold per 100 bushels and in addition provide about 500 gold a week to keep 10 nobles in the realm with good units. Not to mention how long it would take to get any good facilities running, and walls.
Although if you have a wealthy family, it could work. Any wealthy family with brains would know to save it for better investments like Darfix, which in fact does have the location and surroundings to be self-sufficient and really powerful. Unfortunately not enough nobles for it or something, and rogues overrun it too quickly.
-
Yea, such a huge money pit.
-
That's what tithes are for! Food, gold, nobles, etc. Obviously, you'd have to have a pretty large religion backing it, but what's the point of dreaming if you aren't dreaming big?
-
That's what tithes are for! Food, gold, nobles, etc. Obviously, you'd have to have a pretty large religion backing it, but what's the point of dreaming if you aren't dreaming big?
You usually expect a return on your investments, though. I don't see what anyone would gain in financing such a ridiculous expedition.
-
Freedom from the hordes and religious imperative. Pian en Luries would pay a lot to not have tens of thousands of CS in hordes hitting every month, and any realm in Flowreston would feel the same way, I bet, while the Manifest Path has an explicit goal of dealing with all the hordes and civilizing all of Dwilight.
-
Freedom from the hordes and religious imperative. Pian en Luries would pay a lot to not have tens of thousands of CS in hordes hitting every month, and any realm in Flowreston would feel the same way, I bet, while the Manifest Path has an explicit goal of dealing with all the hordes and civilizing all of Dwilight.
You'd be better off just sending your own army.
-
You'd be better off just sending your own army.
It would take an army the size of what Sanguis Astroism as a whole has, if not more, to keep it clear without taking all the land and thus reducing the spawn rates of the hordes. I'd bet it would be cheaper to convert them all, spend a few months or so building up gold reserves and troops to the level needed to clear the hordes that exist at that moment, smash the hordes and RTO, then hold grimly until you destroy the existing hordes and deal with the lesser hordes that spawn after the area is civilized.
-
It would take an army the size of what Sanguis Astroism as a whole has, if not more, to keep it clear without taking all the land and thus reducing the spawn rates of the hordes. I'd bet it would be cheaper to convert them all, spend a few months or so building up gold reserves and troops to the level needed to clear the hordes that exist at that moment, smash the hordes and RTO, then hold grimly until you destroy the existing hordes and deal with the lesser hordes that spawn after the area is civilized.
Whatever colonists you send there will get regularly smashed by the same hordes that currently smash PeL. Except that their income will be !@#$ty, and won't have any population to support decent recruitment rates.
-
Whatever colonists you send there will get regularly smashed by the same hordes that currently smash PeL. Except that their income will be !@#$ty, and won't have any population to support decent recruitment rates.
Sounds like a challenge. Sign me up
-
Whatever colonists you send there will get regularly smashed by the same hordes that currently smash PeL. Except that their income will be !@#$ty, and won't have any population to support decent recruitment rates.
Sounds like Fun! Better wear your *kitten leather helm*.
-
Whatever colonists you send there will get regularly smashed by the same hordes that currently smash PeL. Except that their income will be !@#$ty, and won't have any population to support decent recruitment rates.
Not true. They will be smashed by those same hordes minus whatever hordes may have spawned in their territory.
Moreover, if they hold on for long enough, the spillover could result in PeL being able to take more regions to hold, further reducing spawn rates. The exact size of the network effect would be disputable.
However, a much better location for such a "spawn reduction realm" would be Sallowtown. More easily defensible, probably better income (though still pitiful), and a more direct route to a "border close." The new realm could TO over to Axewild, while PeL TOs to the coast. If Luria Nova simultaneously spawned a new realm in Shinnen, big things could happen. The northern border of "Greater Luria" would be Desert of Silhouettes, Axewild, Lupa Lapu, and Poryatu or Dantooine. A capital shift to Poryatown would further ease defense, as would a new realm in Shinnen. This would establish "corner capitals" at Sallowtown, Poryatown, Shinnen, and Giask. Forland being essentially pacified between the Shinnen realm, Luria Nova, and Fissoa, resources could be committed northwards to allies in Sallowtown or Poryatown. Under these conditions, Flowrestown or Balance's Retreat could be meaningfully colonized.
The trick to beating the monsters is maximizing "secure regions" (regions with no rogue borders) and minimizing "border regions," minimizing travel times, and TOing in patterns that achieve the aforementioned maximization and minimization. Moving to R/CTO Balance's Retreat does not reduce the number of human border regions or increase the number of human secure regions, and creates big travel times for support. Moving out on the flank to Sallowtown could accomplish this (as well as being more easily reinforceable by potential friendlies from D'Hara).
-
"A capital shift to Poryatown would further ease defense"
A strategical capital shift? YOU MUST BE QUITE MAD, SIR!
-
I was discussing an ideal defense of the area, not necessarily actual policy. Note I assumed the possibility of two colonies with nobles to staff estates in about 10 more regions.
Though, as has been discussed many times, a move to "center" a capital is acceptable. And if PeL planned to expand northwards to Lupa Lapu, Dantooine, and Flying Hongrns (maybe South Divide also?), that move would make a great deal of sense RP-wise.
Now that I look at it, the Desert of Silhouettes-South Divide-Flying Hongrns is probably the best defensive line available for defending that area north of Ciarin Tut/Mattan Dews-Lupa Lapu-Dantooine.... if you can recruit in Sallowtown.
-
Oh, aye, the first step is Shinnen, followed by Sallowtown. But you're never going to completely pacify the area until the Mountains, Desert, and Axewild are under human control. When that happens, then you can start seeing the realms there able to through their weight around.
-
I think you severely underestimate the rogue spawns in claimed regions. You seem to believe they will cease to spawn in those regions. They wouldn't.
While I invite you to prove me wrong, I am dead convinced that such a colony would be the worst investment ever.
-
Oh, no, they wouldn't be eliminated. But they would be reduced.
And yes, it probably wouldn't actually be a worthy investment simply on a gold/return ratio. But add in a religious imperative and it becomes feasible.
-
It IS possible, though the opportunity cost might be worthy of a collective "Huh?" for anyone who actually joins in such an attempt.
As it stands, maybe if all of Caerwyn migrated to the area, then just maybe the area could be held with any sort of stability. But they won't. And getting that number of nobles to that area of Dwilight? If anything there'd be gradually fewer.
-
I think you severely underestimate the rogue spawns in claimed regions. You seem to believe they will cease to spawn in those regions. They wouldn't.
While I invite you to prove me wrong, I am dead convinced that such a colony would be the worst investment ever.
We haven't had a single horde spawn in any LN region that I know of. Not even in newly taken ones or ones where advies report extreme levels of monster/undead activity.
-
I think you severely underestimate the rogue spawns in claimed regions. You seem to believe they will cease to spawn in those regions. They wouldn't.
While I invite you to prove me wrong, I am dead convinced that such a colony would be the worst investment ever.
Generally the only monster spawns we see inside Terran are in our large food producing regions like Vashgew or Gretchew, and then usually only when they neglect to distribute their stockpiles of food elsewhere and they build up in the warehouses.
-
We haven't had a single horde spawn in any LN region that I know of. Not even in newly taken ones or ones where advies report extreme levels of monster/undead activity.
I'm always fighting rogues that spawn in Enweil lands. :P
-
Thank you for mentioning a situation on a seperate continent. Please feel free to be ignored in this instance.
-
Thank you for mentioning a situation on a seperate continent. Please feel free to be ignored in this instance.
Enweil lands = claimed lands. If these claimed lands spawn rogues, so do others. TOs therefore don't equate in no rogues appearing.
I admit to very few spawns in D'Hara, though. But D'Hara has mostly good stats, which were earned though years of hard work. I don't expect the Balance colony ever to get there, so rogues will spawn as they once did in D'Hara or as they do in Barca and Enweil.
-
Dominic, even with !@#$ stats the spawns are still greatly reduced. I've seen it in border regions on Dwilight over the course of months with crap stats that are just barely holding on that have effectively no spawns.
Spawning code on Dwilight is not the same as spawning code on other islands.
-
Generally the only monster spawns we see inside Terran are in our large food producing regions like Vashgew or Gretchew, and then usually only when they neglect to distribute their stockpiles of food elsewhere and they build up in the warehouses.
This. I have only ever seen monsters spawn in claimed Dwilight regions if they have significant stockpiles of food. Which is extremely annoying if you have a rural lord who isn't on the ball distributing food, then monsters pop up and destroy what his incompetence kept sequestered. But it's a fun dynamic as well.
-
funny how monsters spawn in any and all regions bar madna city/gardens in madina (year or more ago)
-
Dominic, even with !@#$ stats the spawns are still greatly reduced. I've seen it in border regions on Dwilight over the course of months with crap stats that are just barely holding on that have effectively no spawns.
Spawning code on Dwilight is not the same as spawning code on other islands.
Nitpick:
Code is the same, but there are some knobs we can turn to adjust the way spawning works per-continent. IIRC, Dwilight is heavily skewed toward monsters, and toward spawning in rogue regions.
-
Discriminating against undead, eh!
-
Discriminating against undead, eh!
Undead aren't very SMA.
Neither are the Zuma, for that matter.
-
Undead aren't very SMA.
Neither are the Zuma, for that matter.
SMA says nothing about the situations in which our characters can be put by the game.
What it prescribes is how our characters should react to those situations.
In other words, being attacked by an army of rotting corpses is not at all against SMA.
Responding to this attack by quoting zombie movies is.
-
that's like saying being attacked by an ufo is not against sma but then saying it's an ufo is.
-
No, whatever the heck you want to call it, as long as it makes sense for someone with the period's vocabulary to use is fine.
UFO (Unidentified Flying Object) is perfectly within boundaries of the Medieval person's vocabulary, though perhaps slightly advanced vocabulary. Trying to call Agents Scully and Mulder to investigate over a telephone is not SMA though (For two separate reasons. Can you spot them?)
-
that's like saying being attacked by an ufo is not against sma but then saying it's an ufo is.
If Richard Lionheart was attacked by a UFO, what would he do?
Hint: He would probably cower in fear and pray.
2nd hint: He would not believe a machine could fly. That's just plain crazy. Clearly, these must be angels, or dragons.
-
To get back on topic...
I was running 16% taxes just fine before TMP kicked in. Then, even 8% was "insane and stupid". By the time I got the taxes down to tolerable levels, production was killed, the city had 100% sympathy but like 10% morale and control was dangerously low. With the lowered taxes, morale and control was regained, but production remains !@#$. As such, my income is null. Therefore, my trade balance of 550 gold was more than my tax collection. My city basically went bankrupt. This morning, I get:
Recruitment Center Damage (15 hours, 49 minutes ago)
Due to unpaid maintenance costs, your recruitment centers have all suffered approximately 100% damage. In addition, the following centers have suffered so much damage they were forced to close down permanently:
Javelin Throwers
Halfmen longbows
Verdis Elementum Hoplites
Paisly Phalanx
Workshop Damage (15 hours, 49 minutes ago)
Due to unpaid maintenance costs, your workshops have all suffered approximately 100% damage. In addition, the following workshops have suffered so much damage they were forced to close down permanently:
1 of your Healers, leaving you with none.
1 of your Banners, leaving you with none.
1 of your Caravans, leaving you with none.
1 of your repair, leaving you with none.
1 of your trade, leaving you with none.
1 of your games, leaving you with none.
Militia Disbanded (15 hours, 49 minutes ago)
The following militia unit left in disgust after not being paid what they were owed:
Stormguard
Wolverines
Ducal Spearmen
All this, despite the messages saying that since it's winter they aren't as mad? All this damage was done instantly. The Verdis Elementum Hoplites, notably, were an elite 90/100/90 SF centre I believe (or pretty damn close).
As I repeatedly said, these taxes are paying for their food. And their food is paid for before everything else. It is completely unreasonable that such damage can happen so ridiculously rapidly to a realm. The tax tolerance is *way* too low during TMP, the winter exception doesn't seem to work, and it should *not* apply to realms with a ridiculous food supply. This is not going to make *any* such realms go to war, as by the time the warning comes it's too late.
I am extremely upset that because a few units failed to go kill one or two monsters abroad, everything in the capital is lost. Not all realms are large enough to have rogues spawn internally to stave off TMP. This tax mechanic is therefore way more hurtful to small realms than large realms, which is not something we should be encouraging.
And seriously, *everything* shutting down because taxes don't balance for one given week? I could have *easily* paid for all that maintenance with my pocket money. That's a completely different code than TMP, but I find it quite unreasonably unforgiving as well. Damage should be gradual, with an option to invest pocket money for repairs. Honestly, maintenance is less than 50 gold per week. All that infrastructure that was destroyed is worth thousands of gold. I have about 700 on hand, too. One week of negative balances should *not* result in this.
-
That's what you get for not fighting, and relying too much on foreign food.
Honestly, TMP has been around for a long time, and you have plenty of opportunities to send some armies out to go kick monster ass. You have rogue lands on one end of your realm, and your other border has rogue regions very nearby. You have two allies on your doorstep who are likely enduring non-stop rogue incursions. How hard can it be to get some battle and avoid TMP altogether?
-
seriously Chenier, this is what you get by ignoring reality too long.
-
The second part has code that is completely independent of TMP, and just as ridiculous.
Also, can anyone tell me just how many wars were encouraged by TMP, that wouldn't have otherwise happened due to nobles' boredom?
Playing a realm that relies on trade is perfectly legitimate. There is no reason arbitrary mechanics that do not consider cases that are exceptions to the rule to have such devastating effects. That the nobles failed to send a unit or two to fight rogues, due to the general being inactive and just stepping down, in no way reduces the absurdity of the situation.
-
So your entire army grinds to a halt as soon as your general stops talking? No marshals, dukes, sponsors or the ruler to step up to the plate?
The !@#$storm you suffered is a direct result of TMP. No TMP = no drop in manageable tax level = no major loss of income. And harsh as they may be, the effects of TMP should never be a problem for D'Hara in the first place. Not with all the opportunities for fighting you have. You maneuvered yourself into this corner. You have no excuses.
-
Colonies:
Actually, realms do fight wars simply to get rid of TMP messages. I've been at the receiving end of every single realm in the Colonies deciding to attack Giblot because of their whining peasants. The other realms have actually said that they were attacking due to TMP.
From my position, that's just meta-gaming. Aren't we supposed to be avoiding that? I was even talking with the other Judges about having a monthly 'tournament', where realms pair off and try out the different marshal formations. Each side has a set CS and chooses the rest. Of course, we're not rulers or generals, so nothing's going to come of the talks...just wishful thinking.
D'Hara:
As for the whole TMP thing, myself and my two nobles are slogging through the trees to go visit the Zuma, and I'm hoping to run into some monsters--preferably after I make the food sale, of course. But is it really realistic to travel for several weeks, just to get rid of a stupid warning? Should I wander around in rogue regions until I find some to attack? Is that SMA?
-
So your entire army grinds to a halt as soon as your general stops talking? No marshals, dukes, sponsors or the ruler to step up to the plate?
The !@#$storm you suffered is a direct result of TMP. No TMP = no drop in manageable tax level = no major loss of income. And harsh as they may be, the effects of TMP should never be a problem for D'Hara in the first place. Not with all the opportunities for fighting you have. You maneuvered yourself into this corner. You have no excuses.
If there was a totalitarian leader, then sure, this could be avoided easily. But this is not what we've been pushing. We have been pushing for power to be decentralized. People got *bolted* for issuing orders to people they shouldn't be ordering. The general is also the marshal of the main army, so that doesn't leave many people to order others around. And people weren't being ordered to stick around either, as far as I know.
And it being avoidable does not in any way reduce how stupid it is that the effects are so great.
The new TMP effects were to add realism. These are changes I suggested myself. But if the game only considers one kind of strife with complete disregard for another, even more important (food), then realism is poorer than without any such mechanics at all. The exemption of the tax effect (not the troop training effect) to realms with bad food supply ratios would be both more realistic and more balanced. And I have been arguing for this since way before these disastrous results.
And as I said before, this would not only affect D'Hara. Secessions have low enough survivability as it is, and honestly this code means that seceded realms with bad food ratios must absolutely pick a fight with their origin realm just to avoid implosion. There are contexts that would make a different path both more reasonable and more fun.
Further, TMP is not the only mechanic that can cause bankruptcy. That code should absolutely be tweaked, regardless of whether TMP triggers it or if something else does.
-
Nobody has to pick fights with other humans to avoid TMP. A few monster battles will do just fine. I think D'Hara may be the only realm in Dwilight history who have ever managed to suffer widespread TMP effects. And yes, I do consider that quite an achievement, albeit not one to be proud of.
Seceded realms with !@#$ty food ratios should maybe consider their predicament before seceding.
You still have no excuses. If your army is not doing anything because of the Marshal, have him replaced. Or appoint an active VM. Or create a new army. Or order your knights around personally. Or grab a unit and go fighting yourself.
egamma: D'Hara has two neighboring allies with a combined total of 8 rogue regions on their border. Three of these regions are only one region away from your own border. It would not take 'weeks' to find a place to fight. Station some troops in Thysan, Celtiberia or Rettlewood and see how long it takes for a rogue horde to attack. And if they won't come to you, go to them.
-
If there was a totalitarian leader, then sure, this could be avoided easily. But this is not what we've been pushing. We have been pushing for power to be decentralized. People got *bolted* for issuing orders to people they shouldn't be ordering. The general is also the marshal of the main army, so that doesn't leave many people to order others around. And people weren't being ordered to stick around either, as far as I know.
I'm sorry, this doesn't make any sense.
First of all, the people getting bolted was years ago. And it was for claiming non-orders were orders. That was during the time when Tom had the Orders tag restricted to specific people. Now, anyone can issue an order to anyone else.
Anyone who lets their military grind to a halt because they're afraid of getting bolted is an idiot, and obviously hasn't been paying attention for years.
Furthermore, if it's your general who was inactive...why did your marshals do nothing? That's what the whole decentralized power thing was about: giving power to the marshals. If they're still utterly dependent on orders from the general to be able to do anything, while simultaneously being petrified of getting lightning bolts for issuing orders to the wrong people, you have so completely missed the point it's staggering.
-
There are IR, you know? We weren't being invaded, so had no reason to replace the general/marshal.
Having the general not being a marshal is only meaningful when you have at least two significant armies. It's otherwise not logical.
No, I'm not afraid of bolts. So what if the bolts stopped? I never saw Tom saying "Oh, nevermind then, let's have rulers resume giving orders to everyone". The threat only stopped when people accepted to behave as was desired of them, and because that inflexibility did not account for cases where it was perfectly logical and acceptable for a character to give orders to another, but for which the game did not provide red paper.
If the problem was that a foreign army was marching on us, people would wake up and organize. But as egamma said, all of this just to pick fights with a few rogues?
Those of you arguing about how this could have been avoided fail to see how completely stupid it is to force players to go hunt for monsters in far-away lands to prevent an economic crash. It brings *nothing* to the game. Absolutely nothing.
And small realms bring a lot of change to the game, and therefore excitement to *everyone* on their continent. It is counter-productive to maintain policies that go against small realms.
-
Most realms on Dwilight have no chance of TMP affecting them, especially small realms situated in the wilderness. I bet Barca could just wish they only had to worry about TMP. As some have already mentioned, D'Hara's one of the exceptions because of its geography. You don't want to pick a bone with Terran? That's your choice, and whatever with your "blah blah goodness" about how it wouldn't make diplomatic/historical/fluffy pretty rainbow princesses sense. Yeah, it's a pain. So you have some choices to make, huh? No one said they'd be easy or painless.
You can stay there and keep weathering out the TMP stuff, and hey, maybe in the long term it won't be as deleterious as you might perceive.
You can go pack your things and leave the islands for the next idiot who wants to settle there if this whole TMP thing really is as severe as you say.
You can pick a fight with a neighbor because your populace is growing restless and bloodthirsty. It is not against SMA to, as a realm, go to war just because you feel like it.
You can go on long stupid quests to rid the wilds of monsters. I mean, hey, that sounds heroic but in reality would be pretty boring and dumb. But really, what romanticized notion isn't stupid and boring in reality?
-
Those of you arguing about how this could have been avoided fail to see how completely stupid it is to force players to go hunt for monsters in far-away lands to prevent an economic crash. It brings *nothing* to the game. Absolutely nothing.
So do it for your allies. Do it for your own personal glory. Do it for !@#$s and giggles. Do it because the Flying Spaghetti Monster demands it. If you can't even come up with a reason to get off your ass, while your soldiers and your peasants demand battle and your allies fight tooth and nail against a neverending onslaught...
-
No, I'm not afraid of bolts. So what if the bolts stopped? I never saw Tom saying "Oh, nevermind then, let's have rulers resume giving orders to everyone". The threat only stopped when people accepted to behave as was desired of them, and because that inflexibility did not account for cases where it was perfectly logical and acceptable for a character to give orders to another, but for which the game did not provide red paper.
So you heard some rumours about people being bolted for giving orders, and just took that at face value, didn't actually find out what the real situation was, and thus, when it became painfully obvious that everyone could give orders to everyone again, you decided that this meant that everyone was just being given the opportunity to get bolted.
And continued in this belief for (IIRC) about three years, despite lots and lots of evidence to the contrary, if you had actually bothered to pay attention.
-
D'Hara has no excuse for it's TMP. Terran and Barca have been fighting monsters non-stop for weeks, and we've made no secret of that fact. Inactive general in D'Hara? Fine, but even if random knights had "gone questing," they'd have been fine.
So yes, wander into Maroccidens. Go questing. Ever read Le Morte d'Arthur? Go questing! You've got no immediate wars, you host fabulously expensive tournaments, you have good defensive alliances: go wander into the woods hunting dragons!
However, the economic collapse code does seem weird. Why did his entire infrastructure get wiped in one turn without warning? That seems remarkably extreme to me. Does the game pay for food by immediately "selling off" infrastructure? He had a few hundred gold in bills to pay: how much did he have to sell? How can it take the elimination of thousands of gold of infrastructure to cover maybe 200 gold in debt, tops?
Sidenote: this is why automatic transfers are for suckers. Remember during the brief "Advanced Mentoring" thing when I said in my tutorial that automatic transfers were lame? I was prescient. This is why. You cannot get into bankruptcy if you pre-pay out of pocket for your food. In sum: if you play hardcore and micro-manage each food transfer after each tax week, you will render yourself invulnerable to sudden economic collapse, but more vulnerable to starvation (and also lack of real life). If you let game mechanics automate it and play at a lighter level, you will be at higher risk of sudden explosive infrastructure collapse if you have 1 day of economic imbalance (say, by a banker cooking your books.... holy !@#$ I just found a way to reign in a duke. Exploit automatic transfers by shipping vast sums of food, and it will wipe out the duke's entire economic infrastructure.... headlines read: OVEREATING CAUSES INFRASTRUCTURE COLLAPSE).
-
D'Hara has no excuse for it's TMP. Terran and Barca have been fighting monsters non-stop for weeks, and we've made no secret of that fact. Inactive general in D'Hara? Fine, but even if random knights had "gone questing," they'd have been fine.
So yes, wander into Maroccidens. Go questing. Ever read Le Morte d'Arthur? Go questing! You've got no immediate wars, you host fabulously expensive tournaments, you have good defensive alliances: go wander into the woods hunting dragons!
However, the economic collapse code does seem weird. Why did his entire infrastructure get wiped in one turn without warning? That seems remarkably extreme to me. Does the game pay for food by immediately "selling off" infrastructure? He had a few hundred gold in bills to pay: how much did he have to sell? How can it take the elimination of thousands of gold of infrastructure to cover maybe 200 gold in debt, tops?
Sidenote: this is why automatic transfers are for suckers. Remember during the brief "Advanced Mentoring" thing when I said in my tutorial that automatic transfers were lame? I was prescient. This is why. You cannot get into bankruptcy if you pre-pay out of pocket for your food. In sum: if you play hardcore and micro-manage each food transfer after each tax week, you will render yourself invulnerable to sudden economic collapse, but more vulnerable to starvation (and also lack of real life). If you let game mechanics automate it and play at a lighter level, you will be at higher risk of sudden explosive infrastructure collapse if you have 1 day of economic imbalance (say, by a banker cooking your books.... holy !@#$ I just found a way to reign in a duke. Exploit automatic transfers by shipping vast sums of food, and it will wipe out the duke's entire economic infrastructure.... headlines read: OVEREATING CAUSES INFRASTRUCTURE COLLAPSE).
Thanks Vellos you just ruined one of my long term plans. That is one reason why most Dukes I've seen limit automatic food purchase to a reasonably low threshold. I have tried to investigate using automatic buying to damage a realm we were in a "cold" war with, but turns out they don't use any buy orders and just ship stuff in for free, real shame. I've been waiting for the chance to try it on a realm that actually buys food.
-
*cough*d'hara*cough*
-
So do it for your allies. Do it for your own personal glory. Do it for !@#$s and giggles. Do it because the Flying Spaghetti Monster demands it. If you can't even come up with a reason to get off your ass, while your soldiers and your peasants demand battle and your allies fight tooth and nail against a neverending onslaught...
Those are good reasons to fight. I'm not saying I don't want our realm to fight. Were I not a priest, I'd be the first one there, I'd have gone there long ago. But that's not the case. It would be if I was allowed two characters, but it isn't.
I'm not saying "I don't want us to get involved in any battle at all". I want to see Barca prosper. We all do. But due to OOC activity reasons, nothing was organized.
But that's beside the point. While the thread was first about Dwilight, I now speak of tweaks for *all continents*. The effects are inbalanced. They need tweaking. They need forewarning so that people can prepare before the pain begins, they need to be toned down so that 8% taxes in a city that usually runs 18% doesn't become "stupid and insane", the winter exemption we hear about every turn should be fixed as it's obviously not working, and the code around negative incomes needs to seriously be revisited because the effects of having a negative balance are way out of line with the funds that would have been required for maintenance. For *everyone*, *everywhere*. When I said that acceptable taxes should be lowered during peace time, I certainly did not mean by this much! 20-25% drop of the acceptable limit maybe, not 75%! Lowered taxes should not cause bankruptcy, it should just mean that an realm of equal size that keeps fit military should be able to accumulate enough of a surplus so that if it decides to go to war with you, it has a distinctive advantage. My stance has never changed on this: TMP should never cause a realm to collapse or regions to seriously suffer, as the old code directly did, but rather gradually weaken the realm (without threatening it) so as to make it a more desirable target for its neighbors or to make them less able to seek retribution against seceding cities.
So you heard some rumours about people being bolted for giving orders, and just took that at face value, didn't actually find out what the real situation was, and thus, when it became painfully obvious that everyone could give orders to everyone again, you decided that this meant that everyone was just being given the opportunity to get bolted.
And continued in this belief for (IIRC) about three years, despite lots and lots of evidence to the contrary, if you had actually bothered to pay attention.
I'm pretty sure I witnessed one or two bolts. I know for a fact I witnessed warnings. I'm not saying there's a rule against giving out orders. But there wasn't a rule saying we had to value our oaths either, back before the estate system was implemented. Did that stop me from playing knights loyal to their lords? It was encouraged, and put forth as desirable behavior. Respect of the military hierarchy is still, as far as I know, desired behavior, regardless of whether there are rules with sanctions still attributed to it or not.
D'Hara has no excuse for it's TMP. Terran and Barca have been fighting monsters non-stop for weeks, and we've made no secret of that fact. Inactive general in D'Hara? Fine, but even if random knights had "gone questing," they'd have been fine.
So yes, wander into Maroccidens. Go questing. Ever read Le Morte d'Arthur? Go questing! You've got no immediate wars, you host fabulously expensive tournaments, you have good defensive alliances: go wander into the woods hunting dragons!
Except with the travel times, by the time we got the warning it was too late. Even had someone set out exactly then, he wouldn't have arrived before my production levels were destroyed. I considered investing, but with the current acceptable tax rate, that can't bring me to produce a surplus either.
However, the economic collapse code does seem weird. Why did his entire infrastructure get wiped in one turn without warning? That seems remarkably extreme to me. Does the game pay for food by immediately "selling off" infrastructure? He had a few hundred gold in bills to pay: how much did he have to sell? How can it take the elimination of thousands of gold of infrastructure to cover maybe 200 gold in debt, tops?
Not a few hundred. About 50 gold. Total, maintenance and pay. Food was 525 gold total, income was 136 gold. Lack of maintenance should cause *some* damage, not instant kill everything overnight. I had enough gold to pay both the food balance and maintenance costs on hand too...
Sidenote: this is why automatic transfers are for suckers. Remember during the brief "Advanced Mentoring" thing when I said in my tutorial that automatic transfers were lame? I was prescient. This is why. You cannot get into bankruptcy if you pre-pay out of pocket for your food. In sum: if you play hardcore and micro-manage each food transfer after each tax week, you will render yourself invulnerable to sudden economic collapse, but more vulnerable to starvation (and also lack of real life). If you let game mechanics automate it and play at a lighter level, you will be at higher risk of sudden explosive infrastructure collapse if you have 1 day of economic imbalance (say, by a banker cooking your books.... holy !@#$ I just found a way to reign in a duke. Exploit automatic transfers by shipping vast sums of food, and it will wipe out the duke's entire economic infrastructure.... headlines read: OVEREATING CAUSES INFRASTRUCTURE COLLAPSE).
Haha, yea, I should sell all my food to Port Nebel and Port Raviel, and generalize the economic crisis.
It's so abusable, it's not even funny anymore, now that I think about it. :-\
And I spend enough time micro-managing Paisly's economy as it is, I'm not going to manually set the deals on top of that...
-
*cough*d'hara*cough*
Well sure, but they went and did it to themselves, it wouldn't be much of an achievement now.
-
Well sure, but they went and did it to themselves, it wouldn't be much of an achievement now.
But it's fun to kick a rival when they're down!
-
But it's fun to kick a rival when they're down!
It's amazing how incredibly easy it would be for any one duke in D'Hara (though myself especially) to outright kill the whole realm, just by abusing that mechanic.
And this because the realm does what every realm should: pay decent prices to rural lords for their food.
-
I agree.
TMP is dumb.
-
I agree.
TMP is dumb.
I bet I could pull it off even without TMP, though, too. TMP needs serious tweaks, but its not along. The bankruptcy code is the harshest one I've ever seen in the game. I don't think anything else can destroy so many thousands of gold worth of stuff overnight.
Which I honestly don't understand. Rogue regions can keep their infrastructure, but not me when I run a single week of deficits?
And I can think of many ways of plunging a region into deficits. It is most definitely abusable.
-
Indeed something that should be reviewed. The bankruptcy code is way too harsh.
On the TMP issue, your capital being Paisly, it would take you very little to send part of your army to Barca, Aurvandil or the wilderness to play heroes. Even more if you have 700 gold in your hands as you say.
-
If the problem was that a foreign army was marching on us, people would wake up and organize. But as egamma said, all of this just to pick fights with a few rogues?
eh.. just what exactly do the 17 or whatever people do in D'hara? they can't all be just doing priesty or buro crap or trade? (because i'm heading south to D'hara...... doh!)
---
thing is... there are % damage for buildings... non payment should do like 30% or whatever (depending on how much goes unpaid) rather than right out kaboom.
the other thing is.. there should probably be a treasury to go with automated stuff.. for emergencies like this... obviously it can be robbed (or blown up!).. a lot harder than your averge tax office though.
-
eh.. just what exactly do the 17 or whatever people do in D'hara? they can't all be just doing priesty or buro crap or trade?
I have always wondered this.
Actually, I'm not even sure there ARE other D'harans.
I just thought D'Hara was Chénier.
-
I took my time to investigate, they have the following nobles:
9 Warriors
3 Warriors/Cavaliers
2 Warriors/Heroes
2 Warriors/Traders
2 Courtiers/Heroes
1 Priest/Ambassador
Looks like a decent amount of warriors. Wonder what they do all day.
-
http://battlemaster.org/ShowScribeNote.php?ID=164725&Hash=5ff2617d1c8bb007 (http://battlemaster.org/ShowScribeNote.php?ID=164725&Hash=5ff2617d1c8bb007)
Just a little too late.
-
To get back on topic...
I was running 16% taxes just fine before TMP kicked in. Then, even 8% was "insane and stupid". By the time I got the taxes down to tolerable levels, production was killed, the city had 100% sympathy but like 10% morale and control was dangerously low. With the lowered taxes, morale and control was regained, but production remains !@#$. As such, my income is null. Therefore, my trade balance of 550 gold was more than my tax collection. My city basically went bankrupt. This morning, I get:
All this, despite the messages saying that since it's winter they aren't as mad? All this damage was done instantly.
And how long was this going on, and your realm didn't do anything to find a way to take care of the issue? This kind of thing doesn't sneak up on you out of nowhere. You had to have known that sooner or later you would be running into problems. The need to constantly lower your tax rate in response to the constantly growing intolerance should have really been a big tip. Didn't someone in D'Hara say something like "Hey, we've been getting these warnings for a month, maybe we should do something about it"?
The Verdis Elementum Hoplites, notably, were an elite 90/100/90 SF centre I believe (or pretty damn close).
Not that close: T60/W45/A100, non-ranged
As I repeatedly said, these taxes are paying for their food. And their food is paid for before everything else. It is completely unreasonable that such damage can happen so ridiculously rapidly to a realm. The tax tolerance is *way* too low during TMP, the winter exception doesn't seem to work, and it should *not* apply to realms with a ridiculous food supply. This is not going to make *any* such realms go to war, as by the time the warning comes it's too late.
I am extremely upset that because a few units failed to go kill one or two monsters abroad, everything in the capital is lost. Not all realms are large enough to have rogues spawn internally to stave off TMP. This tax mechanic is therefore way more hurtful to small realms than large realms, which is not something we should be encouraging.
And seriously, *everything* shutting down because taxes don't balance for one given week? I could have *easily* paid for all that maintenance with my pocket money. That's a completely different code than TMP, but I find it quite unreasonably unforgiving as well. Damage should be gradual, with an option to invest pocket money for repairs. Honestly, maintenance is less than 50 gold per week. All that infrastructure that was destroyed is worth thousands of gold. I have about 700 on hand, too. One week of negative balances should *not* result in this.
I agree that the instant loss of all of your infrastructure does seem a bit heavy-handed. A hefty weekly damage allotment would probably be much better. But really, you had a deficit that week that was nearly 400 gold even if you only count food. Add on building maintenance and militia payments, too. So maybe a 550 gold deficit that week? I would expect that for that week, you'd take some hefty damage.
However, going another way would still open up possibilities for exploits. Any kind of automated system would be subject to abuse by clever enough players, I think.
The problem with just assessing some non-lethal building damage and moving on is that it allows you to exploit that to make your region a gold fountain. Just collect food in the region next door, set your Buy price as high as it will go, and then have your buddy sell you the food. He gets craploads of gold (2,000 bushels at 100g/100b = 2,000 gold) , and you get some building damage, which has no effect whatsoever on you if the buildings are not destroyed. Or if the only buildings you have are cheap/junky buildings. Building damage is repaired automatically as part of a region's normal operations, at no cost.
In the example above if your tax income is normally 300 gold, you just created 1,700 gold out of thin air. Next week you sell it back to the guy that sent it to you. Or to the next guy in the chain. Repeat as often as necessary. Heck, you could hit three or more regions in one week with the same shipment of food. Or just keep shipping it back and forth between the two of you. If the game were to try and take it from the lord's gold/bonds on hand, then they could drop it into a guild/temple/SS for tax day to avoid paying it. Or send it to another player entirely.
Unless you can see some way to do it that is non-exploitable?
-
I took my time to investigate, they have the following nobles:
9 Warriors
3 Warriors/Cavaliers
2 Warriors/Heroes
2 Warriors/Traders
2 Courtiers/Heroes
1 Priest/Ambassador
Looks like a decent amount of warriors. Wonder what they do all day.
I don't know any more than you do, honestly. I can't lead troops, nor see them as a priest. Nor can I appoint myself to an army to eavesdrop in order to stay informed. The game totally locks me out of military matters.
Bear in mind that 5 of these non-traders and non-priests are also lords, who, I believe, tend to stay close to their regions most of the time. What the other 9 people do, I can't say...
-
And how long was this going on, and your realm didn't do anything to find a way to take care of the issue? This kind of thing doesn't sneak up on you out of nowhere. You had to have known that sooner or later you would be running into problems. The need to constantly lower your tax rate in response to the constantly growing intolerance should have really been a big tip. Didn't someone in D'Hara say something like "Hey, we've been getting these warnings for a month, maybe we should do something about it"?
A month? I wish. It all went down in like half a week. When I first spotted it, I lowered taxes a bit, but stats had already dropped a lot. Then, they seemed even angrier at the lowered taxes than before, and it went down the gutter pretty much instantly. I also can't lower by more than 5% at a time either, so it took me a couple of days to bring it significantly down.
It really *did* sneak up out of nowhere. Last time we saw TMP, I had to cut taxes down by 4% maybe, not 10%, and damage came much more slowly. Also, the game suggests pretty heavily that since it's winter, there are no effects. So I didn't feel any rush to dramatically cut taxes on the first turn I saw this. I was also in another region at the time, so I couldn't hold a court right away.
Not that close: T60/W45/A100, non-ranged
I agree that the instant loss of all of your infrastructure does seem a bit heavy-handed. A hefty weekly damage allotment would probably be much better. But really, you had a deficit that week that was nearly 400 gold even if you only count food. Add on building maintenance and militia payments, too. So maybe a 550 gold deficit that week? I would expect that for that week, you'd take some hefty damage.
So it wasn't as epic as I recalled, but melee SF with 100A was basically the best I could hope for.
As for the rest, I don't see why not having enough gold for food should affect infrastructure maintenance in any way. As I said, it only costs about 50 gold for both militia pay and maintenance costs. That's peanuts, and there *was* enough gold collected to pay for it too. Imo, the food should be paid last, and maybe result in loyalty and control drops instead of having everything fall apart if it can't be paid?
However, going another way would still open up possibilities for exploits. Any kind of automated system would be subject to abuse by clever enough players, I think.
The problem with just assessing some non-lethal building damage and moving on is that it allows you to exploit that to make your region a gold fountain. Just collect food in the region next door, set your Buy price as high as it will go, and then have your buddy sell you the food. He gets craploads of gold (2,000 bushels at 100g/100b = 2,000 gold) , and you get some building damage, which has no effect whatsoever on you if the buildings are not destroyed. Or if the only buildings you have are cheap/junky buildings. Building damage is repaired automatically as part of a region's normal operations, at no cost.
If I was dishonest, I'd set my buy price to 5000 gold right now. I don't have anything to lose anymore, after all. Can't be any more broken than this.
In the example above if your tax income is normally 300 gold, you just created 1,700 gold out of thin air. Next week you sell it back to the guy that sent it to you. Or to the next guy in the chain. Repeat as often as necessary. Heck, you could hit three or more regions in one week with the same shipment of food. Or just keep shipping it back and forth between the two of you. If the game were to try and take it from the lord's gold/bonds on hand, then they could drop it into a guild/temple/SS for tax day to avoid paying it. Or send it to another player entirely.
Unless you can see some way to do it that is non-exploitable?
The present system is more exploitable than the idea you just presented. Plus, I mentioned further up region stat penalties instead.
-
I agree that the instant loss of all of your infrastructure does seem a bit heavy-handed. A hefty weekly damage allotment would probably be much better. But really, you had a deficit that week that was nearly 400 gold even if you only count food. Add on building maintenance and militia payments, too. So maybe a 550 gold deficit that week? I would expect that for that week, you'd take some hefty damage.
However, going another way would still open up possibilities for exploits. Any kind of automated system would be subject to abuse by clever enough players, I think.
The problem with just assessing some non-lethal building damage and moving on is that it allows you to exploit that to make your region a gold fountain. Just collect food in the region next door, set your Buy price as high as it will go, and then have your buddy sell you the food. He gets craploads of gold (2,000 bushels at 100g/100b = 2,000 gold) , and you get some building damage, which has no effect whatsoever on you if the buildings are not destroyed. Or if the only buildings you have are cheap/junky buildings. Building damage is repaired automatically as part of a region's normal operations, at no cost.
In the example above if your tax income is normally 300 gold, you just created 1,700 gold out of thin air. Next week you sell it back to the guy that sent it to you. Or to the next guy in the chain. Repeat as often as necessary. Heck, you could hit three or more regions in one week with the same shipment of food. Or just keep shipping it back and forth between the two of you. If the game were to try and take it from the lord's gold/bonds on hand, then they could drop it into a guild/temple/SS for tax day to avoid paying it. Or send it to another player entirely.
Unless you can see some way to do it that is non-exploitable?
Here's an easy way to do it:
If the region's taxes can't pay for it, the food turns around and goes home.
Exactly like for non-automatic transfers.
Duh.
-
Here's an easy way to do it:
If the region's taxes can't pay for it, the food turns around and goes home.
Exactly like for non-automatic transfers.
Duh.
How could the game tell, though, if my production is about to drop to 0% or not?
-
A month? I wish. It all went down in like half a week.
D'Hara has been getting TMP and "Too Much Snow" (the winter version of TMP) practically every day for, as of Monday, 23 days. Add on the days since then, and that's 27 or 28 days. So 4 weeks. How can you say that it snuck up on you when you've been getting the warnings for almost an entire month?
As for the rest, I don't see why not having enough gold for food should affect infrastructure maintenance in any way. As I said, it only costs about 50 gold for both militia pay and maintenance costs. That's peanuts, and there *was* enough gold collected to pay for it too. Imo, the food should be paid last, and maybe result in loyalty and control drops instead of having everything fall apart if it can't be paid?
But you've already paid for the food. The seller already has his gold. Where did it come from? The game is not about to let you have all that food without paying for it somehow. And I hardly think a morale/loyalty penalty counts as paying for it.
Edit: Fixed a typo...
-
If the region's taxes can't pay for it, the food turns around and goes home.
Define "the region's taxes can't pay for it".
Does this mean that it would only use the gold that has accumulated so far in the tax coffers? Then auto buys would always fail on tax day, and probably the day after. And if the lord was using most of his gold income to buy food, then they would probably only work on the actual tax day itself, or the day before.
Or does this mean that it can't buy more than the region's predicted tax collection be? What if that gold, for some reason, never shows up on tax day? What if the lords raised taxes very high to increase his predicted income on the day of the sale, then lowered it back down to keep the locals from getting pissed? Or what if the region gets looted, or an infil steals most of the gold? Or the banker cooks the books, or the region lord loses his position and most of the gold is used for overhead?
And what would happen if, either way you do it, the gold that is collected on tax day doesn't cover the trade balance? Does the game forget about it, or take it out somewhere else?
These are all situations that would have to be covered. I'm sure there are more. I'm not trying to be difficult here. Just trying to think of ways to manipulate the system, and exploit the design. Because you know people will try it.
-
How could the game tell, though, if my production is about to drop to 0% or not?
Doesn't the game track how much gold will be collected from each day based on its productivity? Is tax rate factored in each day, or just on tax day? I'm guessing each day.
If that's the case, the game should know on any given day how much money has been collected: it knows for the purposes of looting tax gold, so why doesn't it know for buying food? Thus, it should know how much is available to be spent, right?
The game knows how much is available to be looted, so it can know how much is available to be spent.
The side-effect of this is that major shipments of food arriving the day after a tax day would almost always get turned around and sent home, which would be extremely annoying. So I guess that dukes would need to set up a manual purchase for the day or two after taxes come in.
-
Thanks Vellos you just ruined one of my long term plans. That is one reason why most Dukes I've seen limit automatic food purchase to a reasonably low threshold. I have tried to investigate using automatic buying to damage a realm we were in a "cold" war with, but turns out they don't use any buy orders and just ship stuff in for free, real shame. I've been waiting for the chance to try it on a realm that actually buys food.
Um, I made that whole spiel about how to reign in a duke as a joke, because I assumed nobody would hate the social contract enough to exploit such a loophole that makes no sense ICly. No duke's steward would close down the city's entire infrastructure to buy vastly excessive amounts of food. That's an obvious exploitation of the code.
Or am I crazy in thinking that this code differs wildly from how this would work "in real life"? Realism would seem to dictate that, if there's no money, the low-ranking nobles who run these transfers would turn around the caravans and send'em home: they won't starve, they're reasonably well-to-do, it's no concern of theirs if some peasants starve. But they would not sell off the entire military infrastructure (and the tournament grounds that just hosted a huge tournament) to buy some extra food. They wouldn't have that kind of authority.
Conveniently, having such a "buy limit" also removes the exploit and makes more sense for playability, and sounds like it is codable. Woah. Realism, gameplay, and feasibility, all in one package.
-
What about letting the Lords put money in a 'trade account' of sorts? Instead of taking the gold from food sales out of the region's income itself, Lords would pay for it out of their own pockets (or someone else's pockets depending on where the gold comes from). So, for instance, Lord Kepler puts 300 gold in Keplerville's trade account and sets a buy order for 30 gold per 100 bushels. Trader Bob shows up in Keplerville with 1000 bushels and decides to sell them. Trader Bob is paid 300 gold out of the trade account and goes on his merry way. The food is dropped in the Keplerville warehouse, the trade account is now empty, so when Trader Bill shows up in Keplerville to sell some bushels too, he's !@#$ outta luck, because there's no more gold in the trade account.
-
Man it sounds like the pursuit of an easier lazy way to do things just makes it all the more complicated than simply micromanaging your trades every so often. Even once a week, going to CaravanOffers.php and putting in a new offer would suffice. That comes directly out of your currently held gold for buy offers, and (probably) directly out of your warehouse for sell offers. I've never used it to sell since I'd do a manual caravan run, but I know that this option is the preferred method of choice if you want control (kinda, for some reason it always forces me to put in 300 gold when I want to put in 240 gold at 80 gold/100 bushels).
The moral is: Don't be lazy? It's not even that hard either since you'd be fine updating even weekly for a busy realm.
Note: And yes, I know that this is about auto-stuff. My very relevant question is: Is that really necessary? We already have a perfectly good system for intra-realm free transfers of surplus. If we want to be capitalist we can put in the effort that such a system rewards by doing the manual trade offers. Automatic offers are great for firing and forgetting, but to truly profit? I'm pretty sure you still need to manage your transfers and monitor them. At the very least you do not want to just fire and forget, and seeing as how you'd be checking your warehouse anyway, I don't see how the 5 extra seconds to type in a few numbers and click on a button really makes life that much more difficult.
-
Artemesia:
I agree about preferring manual transfers. But it does add to the time you have to invest if we do it manually.
Indirik:
Yes, the food arriving on or right after tax day would just not get bought. Sucks, don't it?
Alternatively, caravans could have a "wait time." They could have a default "wait" of, say, 2 days; they will "wait" for a buy offer for 2 days. That would mean that even a caravan arriving on tax day would have a reasonable chance of selling at least some of its food.
The downside to this is that dukes would have more uncertainty about food supplies, as they wouldn't know how much food might just be "waiting" for taxes to come in. Unless that information were provided, of course, but that might be hard to track.
-
bloody hell.. i didn't realise auto trade works this way.... that's just silly.
manual trade didn't work because it's heavily biased towards having people sell instead of buy. a lord can be just about anywhere and be able to send out caravans with a couple of gold in hand only (to cover cost of caravans) but a duke has to have a ton of gold in hand (or sit somewhere with a bank) to send off caravans to buy or set offer. this especially favours low price trades. also when you send caravans out to buy, you can buy them at different prices, whereas if someone send along to sell, you can't really buy at different prices unless you know when it'll arrive and try to time the offers to known caravans (stupid micro)
only solution i can think of is like what sacha said
treasury for trade and you can set a portion of your region's taxes (ie part of the maintenance cut) to go there directly every tax day as well as manually dump gold in there.. you can't take gold out... sort of like guild/religion global treasury. all auto trades go through that.. if it's dry.. no trade. this would allow a duke to bugger off to war without needing gold in hand to set manual offers every week.
-
I have not seen D'hara in or around Barca for the entire winter. Their are monster attacks in Barca every two or three days. Don't even wait to hear the message of an incoming attack, be proactive. Pick either Rettlewood Thysan or Celtiberia and sit there and wait. If you feel you've been waiting too long ( which I have never seen happen) roll into one of the rogue regions bordering Barca where their are hordes 100% of the time.
This won't just stave off tmp this willHelp your allies
Edit: the miltary of barca was not in barca the whole winter other than their appearance a few days ago which was brilliant and helped out immensely. Shame it was the first time.
-
What about letting the Lords put money in a 'trade account' of sorts? Instead of taking the gold from food sales out of the region's income itself, Lords would pay for it out of their own pockets (or someone else's pockets depending on where the gold comes from). So, for instance, Lord Kepler puts 300 gold in Keplerville's trade account and sets a buy order for 30 gold per 100 bushels. Trader Bob shows up in Keplerville with 1000 bushels and decides to sell them. Trader Bob is paid 300 gold out of the trade account and goes on his merry way. The food is dropped in the Keplerville warehouse, the trade account is now empty, so when Trader Bill shows up in Keplerville to sell some bushels too, he's !@#$ outta luck, because there's no more gold in the trade account.
Wow. You just described how the already existing manual purchase order system works.
-
Wow. You just described how the already existing manual purchase order system works.
Oh come now, not everyone pays attention to all that. And frankly, some of it isn't exactly that easy to note. Well, the manual option actually is pretty self-explanatory and straightforward. It's the new automatic option that throws me in a loop.
-
Yes, only now it would be the only way to pay for the food for all the trade options, and scenarios like what happened in Paisley would not be possible anymore. Similarly, all the income from food sales to visiting caravans and traders would also be added to the trade account. Slap a tax on it to get your money out again. I.e. if there is 500 gold in the account on tax day and it is taxed for, say, 25%, 125 gold is added to the region's income on tax day.
-
So you heard some rumours about people being bolted for giving orders, and just took that at face value, didn't actually find out what the real situation was, and thus, when it became painfully obvious that everyone could give orders to everyone again, you decided that this meant that everyone was just being given the opportunity to get bolted.
And continued in this belief for (IIRC) about three years, despite lots and lots of evidence to the contrary, if you had actually bothered to pay attention.
Well, it wasn't just a rumour. I know of at least one specific person bolted for giving an order.
-
Well, it wasn't just a rumour. I know of at least one specific person bolted for giving an order.
Is there a month-long lag in here? ;)
By that logic, you should have advised everyone you knew to stop giving orders entirely.
Lightning bolts are always given for specific reasons. If you want to avoid getting bolted, and help others do the same, never, ever, ever just take what you hear thirdhand about it as gospel. Certainly don't take what the person who got bolted said as gospel; he's got every reason to mislead. Always do your best to get the story from as close to the source as possible.
-
Hah, it was a bit of a necro post. :P
But in this case, it wasn't third-hand or even second-hand information. I was the one who got bolted. And I can tell you that whoever it was that bolted me (I assume Tom) certainly didn't bother to "find out what the real situation was" before doing it.
-
How long ago was this?
Did you send something on red paper and then in the messages say something like "This is not an order"?
Did you send something not on red paper and in the message say something like "This is an order"?
...whoever it was that bolted me (I assume Tom)...
Tom is the only one that can send bolts. Titans can recommend a bolting, but Tom's the only one that can actually do it.
-
Several years ago, during the "only marshals can issue orders to armies" rule that was later rescinded.
No.
Yes.
-
Yes.
Then there was nothing more to the "real situation" that Tom needed to find out.
There was a very clear rule, you broke it, you got bolted. End of story.
-
Then if the context or situation of the action wasn't important, I suggest you don't bull!@#$ on telling people to find out "what the real situation was". Obviously the real situation wasn't important enough to bother with when a bolt is the first and only response.
-
Then if the context or situation of the action wasn't important, I suggest you don't bull!@#$ on telling people to find out "what the real situation was". Obviously the real situation wasn't important enough to bother with when a bolt is the first and only response.
"The real situation", in this case, was not that you sent an order, which is what you said earlier. It was that you sent a message that was not an order, and tried to claim that it was an order, in direct defiance of a rule Tom had laid down.
Knowing and understanding that much should tell you all you need to know to figure out that you don't need to worry about getting bolted for sending orders.
-
No, I most certainly sent an order. It just wasn't sent on red paper. In a general sends someone an order, I'd say they shouldn't give a !@#$ what colour paper it arrived on, unless you're saying that anything not sent on red paper can be completely ignored. I'd say the realities of the game contradict you, if so.
Your position here is completely undermined by the fact that the rule I got bolted for was later rescinded. It was a stupid, unnecessary and invasive rule, and the fact it was changed only proves this.
-
"The real situation", in this case, was not that you sent an order, which is what you said earlier. It was that you sent a message that was not an order, and tried to claim that it was an order, in direct defiance of a rule Tom had laid down.
Knowing and understanding that much should tell you all you need to know to figure out that you don't need to worry about getting bolted for sending orders.
My original point was not that I thought we could still get bolted for it, but that I don't see any reason for it to have become any more desirable since then, even if the standards are way more relax.
-
No, I most certainly sent an order. It just wasn't sent on red paper. Are you saying that anything not sent on red paper can be completely ignored? I'd say the realities of the game contradict you, if so.
If you sent something that was not on red paper, it was not an order. It was a letter, a request, a report, or a roleplay.
If you said in the message that it was an order, that was clearly against the rule Tom had created for that time.
If you did not know that it was against the rule, you must not have been paying attention.
Your position here is completely undermined by the fact that the rule I got bolted for was later rescinded. It was a stupid, unnecessary and invasive rule, and the fact it was changed only proves this.
None of that matters. The rule was in place when you broke it. That it was later rescinded because Tom decided that the "everyone can give orders" part of the experiment worked better than the "orders are restricted" part is immaterial to what happened during the time it was in place.
-
My original point was not that I thought we could still get bolted for it, but that I don't see any reason for it to have become any more desirable since then, even if the standards are way more relax.
Sorry, I think I lost track of the pronouns in there somewhere ;)
What, exactly, do you think should still be undesirable?
-
None of that matters. The rule was in place when you broke it. That it was later rescinded because Tom decided that the "everyone can give orders" part of the experiment worked better than the "orders are restricted" part is immaterial to what happened during the time it was in place.
So if a government makes a law that jaywalkers will be executed, and that law is later struck down due to its ridiculous unfairness, everyone who was executed during that time should still be considered to have deserved what they got?
-
So if a government makes a law that jaywalkers will be executed, and that law is later struck down due to its ridiculous unfairness, everyone who was executed during that time should still be considered to have deserved what they got?
The rule was not "struck down due to its ridiculous unfairness". It was part of an experiment that Tom was undertaking, to see what method of handling orders would work best. When he decided that that method wasn't the one to go with, he removed the restrictions on sending orders, and, as part of that, removed the rule.
In this case, since the rule was made quite clear to everyone, and following it would have been quite easy, I consider you to have deserved what you got.
By the way, I also consider myself to have deserved what I got when I got myself locked a couple of years ago for some region lordship/religion founding jiggery-pokery. I didn't at the time, but later I came to see the logic behind it. Lest you think I'm just speaking as someone from the other side of the law from you.
-
Ugh, let me adjust the analogy for you then.
"So if a government makes a law that jaywalkers will be executed, and that law is later struck down for whatever reason, everyone who was executed during that time should still be considered to have deserved what they got?"
Not jaywalking is "quite easy". It shouldn't be a big deal to only cross the street at a designated crossing place. Does that mean people who do jaywalk deserve to be executed simply because the law says so, even after that law is rescinded?
-
Ugh, let me adjust the analogy for you then.
And yet, it's still a terrible analogy.
There were good reasons behind the rule you broke, whether or not you agreed with them. If you can tell me a good reason why someone should be executed for jaywalking, I might reconsider.
...Oh, and unless you caught Tom on a really bad day, I very much doubt that your character died from it. I'd bet that he just got seriously wounded, lost all his positions, and couldn't be played for a few days.
-
If you can tell me a good reason why someone should be executed for jaywalking, I might reconsider.
Jaywalking is a gateway crime. You have to stomp on it quickly and harshly, to prevent the ne'er-do-wells from graduating into much more heinous crimes. Like cutting in line. Or ... *shudder* ... pulling the tags off their mattresses!
-
Obviously the reasons weren't that good, else the rule wouldn't have been rescinded. And a reason for executing jaywalkers? They cause accidents. Execute jaywalkers and it provides an example to others, potentially preventing future accidents and deaths. Is it a good reason? No, it's a !@#$ing stupid one. But so have many other laws in history been stupid ones, as was the one about generals not being able to issue orders to nobles.
In any case, my original point still stands. Tom didn't give a !@#$ about the context of the action, he just saw his precious rule had been broken - a rule that he later withdrew - and threw a lightning bolt at the culprit without bothering to find out any details.
-
Jaywalking is a gateway crime. You have to stomp on it quickly and harshly, to prevent the ne'er-do-wells from graduating into much more heinous crimes. Like cutting in line. Or ... *shudder* ... pulling the tags off their mattresses!
Heh, OotS reference?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0227.html (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0227.html)
-
Sorry, I think I lost track of the pronouns in there somewhere ;)
What, exactly, do you think should still be undesirable?
Non-marshals (nor even generals, for that matter) sending orders to people as if they had authority over them.
Ironically, TMP is creeping back against D'Hara, but this time at the same time as a massive starvation. The soldiers are complaining right when they should be the most happy to pay taxes so that food may be imported for their families.
-
In Luria Nova we completely cleansed the rogues of Forland, and start suffering from TMP too.
Good measures: Send an expeditionary force to see if there are still some monsters left, negotiate with PeL to send a force north of them to hunt monsters, prepare for war in case everything else fails.
Bad measures: Complain about TMP in this thread.
-
PeL also got a too much peace message recently, but I'm sure some rogue groups will move south for us to deal with before long.
-
We'd have done something sooner if Alanna hadn't come back. If nothing moves soon, we'll be expanding into them anyway.
-
A great big thanks to the devs!
-
A great big thanks to the devs!
Hear Hear!
-
Jaywalking is a gateway crime. You have to stomp on it quickly and harshly, to prevent the ne'er-do-wells from graduating into much more heinous crimes. Like cutting in line. Or ... *shudder* ... pulling the tags off their mattresses!
Actually the police in most major Australia cities will blitz Jaywalking in the CBD's once or twice a year. Some stats show that Jaywalking accounts for 60% of our pedestrian accidents in the city centers. It generally causes an outrage along the lines of "why aren't they spending time solving real crimes"