Messages

To be quite fair m2rt you simply showed how much restraint Delvin showed in the case of Alex.  For him to be that fed up with him and still not ban him from the game shows alot.  Also from his words i would like to apologise turned very quickly into 'I was right' you were wrong attitude.  Either way that really should have been a clear warning not to do anything wrong for a long time.

All of you even thinking of complaining about Delvin.  He puts alot of hours into coding, bug fixes and then also handles social contract issues and such.  He should be getting a medal and not being witchhunted by Atanamir's group of friends.  From a personal note me and Delvin didnt see eye to eye at one point but I think as a grew up and watch 18 anymore we grew to respect one another.

Naysayers...

Did those last multis Alex report turn out to be multis? What of the other multis he reported? Might as well report everyone to cleanse the game once in awhile... remember that guy from OI mm.

Dobby you speak highly of yourself... didn't Calgius die once you left or was it headed that way? Also, you said you left because the punishment on Alex was not severe enough? no you left prior to his punishment review Court house.



Counts rising in Perdan... btw

I am not the discussion here that ended a year ago.  There is no point bringing it up.  I left because of Atanamir I decided not to come back at that time because of the magistrate decision on a very light punishment in my opinion.  At the time I left Caligus was fine and Sirion were going to come help.  What happened after I left had nothing to do with me.

[He however decided to take matter in his own hands countless times which is the underlying problem with the player. He felt he was defender, judge and executioner of his own verdict.]

BlueStar and m2rt.

I was very loved in Caligus just as much as Atanamir was probably in Perdan.   The difference being was I played the game properly and made as little impact to the game by my leaving.  I dont think anyone else quit Caligus at the time.  Maybe shortly after a couple of people left however I didnt follow and do not know that.

Everyone who has decided to quit because the Titan's decided to take action against a player who has repeated offenses to the social contract.  There is no way to justify ANY action that doesnt abide the social contract.  It was not Alex's job to do this.  You all realise the whispering and badtalk of players that he suspected of cheating mark these said players with a badname permenantly to the entire group.  Everyone knows Alex was paranoid but his only duty was to report directly to the titans suspected cheaters.  He however decided to take matter in his own hands countless times which is the underlying problem with the player.  He felt he was defender, judge and executioner of his own verdict.

I bolded the part because i feel that is the underlying reason why what action was taken against him.  With regards to those leaving and people posting about who is leaving.  This simply doesnt matter.  Its simply showing a bigger problem that multiple players all in High stagnant Perdanese postiions for a long time will quit the game because of the ruling.  This shows that there is a huge OOC problem and Perdan was not a realm you could ever grow in as a new noble into higher positions as they were placekept.  This attitude is alot resembling of an OOC clan.

I will not hide that I left the game because I felt Alex was not even close to punished enough for what he did to me.  However, I accepted the decision and didnt take other people out of the game with me nor did I start a forum war to try and get my way.  You all have played the game for a very long time.  I dont think you are doing good to yourself and him causing all this bickering.  When such decisions are taken people with be upset and others will be happy this has happened.  Somewhere the titans NEED to draw the line how much they can accept.  With Alex its obvious he crossed the line and its a learning lesson.

I do believe that someday he will be allowed to return to the game.  But im pretty sure its after a substantial timeout and a new family involved.  Those friends of Alex who really wish to see him back the right way.  Keep playing.  This may even do the player good.  An extended timeout however long time and the titans deem he needs may actually fix the bad part of Alex.  Obviously there is always a chance this does not happen or Alex doesnt wish to return to the game in the future.

Please just let the argument die down.  Nothing is going to come from this.  I think the titan's handle things very well for the most part.  They keep cases private because it prevents labelling people with bad reputations which i think is good.  Most people learn from their mistakes and its unfair to release minor breaches of social contract to the masses.

I will even make a request that this topic gets locked.  If you really want something to come from this open a new topic with suggestions on how to improve the Titan system in how they act, handle cases, transparency and so on.

Greetings everyone.  I am not going to comment of my opinion of thoughts on the player of Alex after what happened because it wouldnt be fair to him and negative opinions on other players dont help in anyway.

Basically all the issues that battlemaster has is a simple lack of respect and greedyness of a minority of players.  Back when i used to play players respected people in higher positions.  They would take the lowly knight class as a lowly knight class and not speak up to their lords.  Sadly creating new character does nothing to erase the knowledge the player does have of the game and indirectly people use this knowledge to try and get what they want.

Take scenario 1.  A player wants to gain positions in x time.  He begins in the realm and is very vocal making sure he is heard and becomes popular.   He will target x noble from that realm simply because he wants his position and either directly or more subtly will make the person miserable IC.  This scenario considering the small player base is almost definately discussed OOC between friend groups (everyone knows they exist) and they help each other to achieve this goal.

Scenario 2.  The player who creates an account to just cause chaos.  Basically they make a character in the realm soley for undermining everything and causing chaos.  I think going to a realm with this intention is a very very bad thing because by nature Knights are supposed to be loyal at the start.  If events happen that turn them than thats another story completely.

There are many more scenarios I am briefly bringing up two to make a simple point.  Basically in both one party or the other is going to get annoyed IC and likely OOC.  The player doing this has a goal if it fails hes going to be quite angry about it.  If he succeeds the people targetted will likely feel targetted and want to lash back out in what normally starts all the OOC arguements.

Battlemaster would improve if people toned down targetting.  This also has to do with people making family fueds.  I dont agree this should happen unless both players agree they would like this.  I understand family feuds are a thing but in the end everyone here is a person and people do get tied with their characters and have issues making character separation.  This is why when the general player wants to do something to another I think there needs to be a mutual agreement on it.

I know i may not have expressed my point across clearly.  The best example i can give is someone wants to play ball with you and you really dont want to and he keeps insisting and insisting and you are forced to in the end.  Thats how alot of situations occur starting on a bad foot and it goes sour from there.

Either way this is my two cents.  About me.  No im not currently playing the game and havent since I quit a year ago.  I am however considering returning now.  I havent fully decided on the matter.

[please]

Then please stop lying in the posts about me in here. I wanted to talk to you before Fleugs posted those logs. You weren't there, I needed to go sleep. On the next day, I could only reach you after those logs were posted. The whole battlemaster-channel is my witness. And actually I see those logs confirming what I already said. Gathering maximum evidence against a player who has been called a cheater by various sides. You also bring your friends in here to post (even irrelevant to the case) things against me, but when I do ask people what you have done to be called a cheater, it is wrong? So much about ethics. Please spare me this and be for one time straightforward to me.

My favourite part. Here you can see the origin of the problem. All this started because I was talking with Jason/Laura.
And since Jason has also stated that he generously apoliogized to me back then I will also state what sort of apology that was.
The last chat betwen us was once more one of flames. Sadly.
I then asked Jason openly (knowing what Ays has told me) what all these OOC rumours are that Fleugs is spreading on IRC.
I gave him the chance to tell me. He of course denied it. After the falmes were over someone mediated us (can't remember) and I took Dobromir into personal query.
I told him to calm down and that we should just leave this matter and I told him again, that I just wanted to know if we have clean war and fair gaming. again I didn't say that I knew sth, since I felt that it was his part to come towards me with such an information.
His response was (this is no 1 to 1 exact wording, but I remember it like yesterday): I apologize for what I said, also I want to say that I play with no OOC people I know this game Bam.
Now I had to weigh this apology. Obviously the second part was a lie. Does that mean that the apology was sincere? I couldn't know. The trust was broken and the respect was gone from my side at this moment. And I honestly I didn't care anymore to get deeper into this, as it was not my business to find out if they are together or not. But I saw it as my business as reponsible player to find out if they were cheating.
I then consulted those who I already mentioned and then filed the report. This is where everything started. And to conlude with the part that i already told the Titans: The lying in my face might be protecting the privacy (although he told others) and that is ok but the OOC harassment and insulting is also no acceptable thing. However, I could even overlook this insulting, but I can't overlook if he OOC cheats as some players suspect. That's why I filed this complaint so we have a decision by an independent court on this.

When the Titan verdict was done, I abided by it, even though they told me, as Ays correctly stated, that the accounts are linked. I also informed of this verdict the (already listed) people I had told to.
I apologize if this led later to rumours and I fully understand that this is bad, but seriously, from my side, there was never the intention to do so. This you must believe. It may have not been in my hands anymore, have you ever thought of this possibility? And I tried hard to let it not come so far. I had talked to you before the verdict and I always tried to solve this between players first. However, still I apologize for the inconvenience - without but, when, if or similar.

This whole section is completely bogus.  I was angry at first because I wasnt sure who was spreading the rumors.  This whole section is completely irrelevant and false and I said nothing of the sort.  Either way it has nothing to do with the case.  This is getting very sad.

I dont see any reason for my account to be restored.  I quit for a reason mainly I need to get away from battlemaster for a while.  Secondly even if i deleted on rash decision that would have been my fault and I shouldnt expect my account to be restored.

This whole matter isnt about punishments what I want to see done to the player.  Its mainly about ethics.  Im not going to go into lengths to say what I think or should be done to Atanamir its not my place to do so.

One thing I will say is you asked why myself and Laura never talked to you about it?  Did you talk to us in the same respect and have the decency to confront us about it?  Answer is no so dont call the kettle black.

As has been said repeatedly you could easily have kept this to yourself after you contacted the Titans.  If you 'knew' there was no reason to go talking to Fleugs or Velax if in your mind we were 'guilty' you should have gone directly to the Titans and told them not tell someone who you knew I wasnt great with.  You were competetive you wanted to win and sadly it went that step too far for you.

I will speak for myself only but I find it hard that you only became sorry for what you did after irc logs were released by Fleugs.  Whether you are or not I dont actually know all I know its hard for me to be convinced this is genuine and you learned anything from it.

For the benefit of the community its best that this case goes on so everyone knows has privacy and social contract cases will be dealt with.  Its the best for the community as a whole and hopefully everyone will be able to trust that it wont be tolerated in the end.

I tried to reconcile and asked Jason just earlier on IRC now of what he wants from me to do for an apology and so he feels better again:

I will leave this to the Magistrates to interprete.
For my part, I am also ready to continue my talks with Jason, but only in public and transparent.

The entire discussion is on the #bm-channel on IRC now, but I don't know how to keep logs and I am also at work, my time is limited.
Maybe someone else from the channel can do it.

This was hardly the context of the convo everyone knows I left irc so i dont have any of the conversation.  I however wont even be saying a single word further to you on any public network.  Stabbity was there and I shortly followed by it wouldnt change anything and I agreed with it.  This was purely my personal opinion and wasnt a demand or request from me.   I dont believe he is sorry so this is my way of telling him because I know hes not feeling even close to bad enough to do anything of this sort.  There was no intent on these words whatsoever.  I have now also put the person on ignore as I can see he is trying to gain any advantage he can in the situation and he not remorseful whatsoever.  The public nature of this so called apology is  purely to make him seem like a good guy in the community. 

No your apology wont be accepted.  I have told multiple of your friends that thats what I wanted from the start.  At this point after your rage and insults even just yesterday morning I feel this is only a way for you to try and avoid punishment.  Thing still stands Ays told you and you only.  You made sure it got out to the whole community and you used it for your own benefit.  This was not an accident.  It was crazy over competitiveness that you let get way too far.  You have months to apologise for this now that there are people beginning to share information and after i tell certain people why I started this in the first place I see an apology shortly after?

Im sorry but I have no reason to believe this is genuine.  You cause me alot of headaches grief and destroyed my interest in battlemaster and the first thing out of your mouth was 'hahah sore loser rage quit'  You are hardly sorry of what happened.  All that matters for you has and will be your reputation and your name in this game I know this is only a way to try and keep it as good as possible.

The post deleted by generous yesterday proves that you have no remorse you called me all sorts of names yesterday afternoon and all of a sudden you are now sorry.  Did you simply talk to Fleugs?  No.  Did you simply just mention it to Autrey after that?  No.  By your own admittance you told Velax also.  Im sure you had many other friends you had no business telling also but they are your friends and wont speak up in here.

Thats all I have to say on the matter.  Once I opened this thread it was too late for an apology.  Like I said I dont believe its a genuine apology whatsoever.

Just for reference I read all the logs.  The player Simon in question has always hated on myself and especially Dobromir.  For him it was fun to talk and join in and the hate and everyone knows he does these things for his own personal fun.  I would take it with a grain of salt.

Further down the conversation when things got really serious into him using the info ingame it was obviously apparantly that he wanted no more to do with it and backed out.

Im not saying what he said was right.  But I feel since the player he was talking about was me in question and I know how his and my relationship has been over the past 4-5 years I dont feel the player was being serious about anything and simply playing along.

Arguing over IRC isn't an issue, in fact that's just normal discourse and therefore not an offence. Accusations of cheating however is an issue. But that's a tangent either way and if there were evidence it would need a separate case, so it's neither here nor there.

Im not concerned about it Fleugs used to blame me for that all the time.  You cant take those things too seriously its not an issue for me personally.

The truth about the whole irc matter is he was blantently accusing me for OOC conspiracies against him and cheating.  Eventually i got tired of it and yes I insulted him.  He insulted me back just as much as I insulted him however.  In the end I actually apologised to him he did not.  Im certainly not whining over an irc arguing where there were insults thrown on both sides.  There were many people there for it also so if arguing on irc is an offense we are both guilty of that.

It does need to be pointed out that it was me, not Atanamir, that brought this issue to the forums. I had no knowledge of any previous "harassment" or "rumour-spreading", nor intent to propagate such. My concern was with the fairness implications of two people in a close relationship (of any sort) who live together and are the rulers of two different realms on the same island.

You perhaps mentioned it first but it was him that demanded an explanation and kept the subject going on in the forum as long as possible.  Here is no other than 5 posts about him forcing the thread to basically be locked to drop the subject

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4182.105.html

Furthermore even if he was told by Ays.  It was Atanamir's decision to make the whole community know and find out about it.  He by his own admittance did tell Armonia's ruler about it all so it shows clear intent to use this personal information for his own benefit.  This is a horrid display about trying to throw multiple people under the bus.  Furthermore, such information should not even be discussed with other players for advice especially players who dont even like me in the first place.  The only reason this happened was of personal interests in a game.  It simply did not matter how much harm is cause as long as victory is acheived.

Summary:   Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and facebook
Violation:   OOC contract
World:   East-Continent
Complainer:   Jason Zammit
About:   Alexandros Stavrou

Full Complaint Text:

To sum it up I wasnt really planning on even opening this up in spite of the overwhelming evidence just on the forum against the player.  However, due to a no remorse an unapologetic nature of this person who says things all over the place and then simply goes 'ok I will stop now' without even apologising to the person he does stuff to.  A good example was after I already quit he immediately began with the sore loser rage quitter immediately.  When he realises it not he simply says I take back what I said.

On the situation at hand.  He filed a complaint against myself and Deytheur ruler of Eponllyn to the Magistrates about us supposedly dating and that is somehow illegal.  Obviously this was wrong to start with.  However things went to far when he put this information in the forum and started to use it in character and telling as much people he could about it to gain more support for Perdan and less support for Caligus.

I've always been the target of normal various insults on irc and such which is completely fine but use of whatever my personal life is is a major step too far and this caused me to hate battlemaster.  I dont wish to see this happen to another player and the only way I see anything changing is if an unapologetic player is punished for his actions.  This was a case of winning was the only option and he would do anything to achieve that.

As for evidence there is various forum posts in the Perdan vs Caligus + friends thread to be the foremost one.  Also with various irc users and other people in character namely Autrey Bendix.  Im not a person who seeks revenge on another player if that was the case I would have opening this a month ago.  Hes had ample time to apologise to me for his actons and he simply hasnt.

Thank you Zaki for being so overzealous and posting here my words.
You should care more though about providing an ingame reason for the war declaration of Sirion to Perdan today.  ;)

Now, I rather prefer to answer this though for myself: I will not discuss this matter deeper than it needs to be.
Whatever I had as OOC issue with Jason I went the official way and filed a report at the Titans, as the game rules say.
I even asked Anaris about what correct way (Titans or Magistrates) to go back then.
Also I have given solari my word that I will not comment the content of the report again if brought forward by third parties who just want to strip some flame war up.

Now, in all short form, about this OOC message: Jason lashed out at part of the entire community and one player especially and leave scorched earth behind him.

Please let us remind some basic rule:

I don't think that a player who ragequits obviously due to a IC event and then lashes out against parts of community and particularly one player in personal is the abiding by this rule. I think it is sad when other old and reknown players forget their own rules, just because another old player overstretched the line between IC/OOC for himself. I am as old player as Jason (and even older) as well, I know those rules by heart and honestly, if I would file a report everytime I felt harassed by Dobromir or someone else on IC/OOC/IRC, then Magistrates would have a lot to do. I also keep no IRC logs for this reason anymore, because I simply ignore people who want to offend me. Anyway, Jason has quit and I wish all the best for his RL, we should hold no grudges over a game, cause really it is only a game.

Sidenote: I had my ragequit many years ago as well. Lavigna and those with me in realms back then remember. (Edited: I repented few days later to Tom and due to petition of other players he gave me the account back, I still am very thankful for this)
This happens when BM gets too personal for you. But I think ragequit is good lesson some type of people have to undergo in order to see things clearer and redefine position. I hope that Jason finds also the peace to return again to BM someday and enjoys the game again as he really should do.

I think I already wrote too much again and I want to keep this matter at a reasonable level and niveau, without too many emotions.
Thank you.

No Atanamir I quit only because of your OOC tirade against me.  When it comes to irc you are the one who began accusing me of an OOC conspiracy against your realm, banned me from channel and such.  It was a matter of time with you going on and on about it your whining on the forum I was going to call you out of this bull!@#$ and I did.  I apologised only for the harsh words against you but you still took an IC situation completely OOC to start with.  I was already angry and this.

Obviously shortly after we were no longer on speaking terms.  I see you blow up the forum with myself and ruler of Eponllyn presumably dating.  Completely unacceptable and borders all things wrong to do in the game.  It didnt just stop there.  I got messages in the game OOC that Atanamir contacted them trying to convince them of this and turn on Caligus.  Queen Autrey is one of them and Erik of Sirion was definately talked to OOC about it by Atanamir also.

Im sure there is alot more people who got told by Atanamir about this.  I just dont know about it.  Im just saying this is anything but a rage quit for IC reasons.  I was burnt out and planning to quit because of the OOC reasons after the war was over.  When the succeession happened it was something I simply didnt want to deal with any longer.  The character Nanaki in Caligus even contacted me OOC a few days before about me being different.  It more then showed me the game was not right for me anymore because one player ruined it all for me.

Dont try and turn this into a rage quit.  Im not a kid that does that and this is far from it.  I would prefer you leave me and your comments about me completely alone Atanamir you have said enough about me as it is.

For reference.  Caligus wanted Atanamir to step down for all the reasons Indirik already brought up.  War happened because Atanamir's character was dishonest, stubborn in the eyes of Caligus and cared more about his position than anything else going on a massive insulting spree of Caligus and Dobromir when he was accused of the above deeds.  Honestly its not wonder this resulted in war.  The escalation was purely on Atanamirs character.

Caligus was never intending to go to war had Atanamir simply stepped down.  Both Autrey and Siana knew that beforehand.

There was no OOC plot.  Heck Autrey hated Dobromir but learned to respect him over time.  Anyways you cant start accusing OOC then get upset when people say what happened IC.  You even admit yourself to involvement I dont get why how you dont see your meddling as insulting to Caligus.